• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Authoritarian Liberals

Jack Hays said:
Not at all true.
Click to expand...

As I thought. Nothing insightful or responsive. You've been badly defeated here, Jack, destroying your own premise. It has been amusing to watch.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
That's not what we were discussing nor what I have refuted you upon. I know you like to change topics when you get defeated... as you have done here. You posted opinion, I posted fact. You can now thank me for correcting you.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, you have missed the point.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
No it doesn't. You can have your opinion and so can I. If it eliminates my ability to claim that the right has the corner on the pretensions of moral superiority, it eliminates YOUR ability to do the same about the left. You pwned yourself, Jack. You're not going to be able to untangle yourself from this one. I won't allow it.
Click to expand...

Wrong again. I eliminated your ability to claim there is any evidence to support your assertion. Now it's just a matter of different personal perspectives. That ground favors me.
 
Jack Hays said:
Union membership in nearly all African countries is mandatory for nearly all workers. The union is sponsored either by the ruling party or the state.

As for the universality of taxes, that's a given, but in raising it you've made my point that taxes are not an apt analogy for Union membership. Remember there are right-to-work states, which would be tax free countries in your analogy. There is no reason to coerce Union membership.
Click to expand...

The analogy is if you want to belong to a society, or an organization in which you will be given benefits, very often you are required to join, pay dues, or otherwise commit yourself, and not just be a tourist who soaks up the blessings without giving anything back. It still stands in your right to work states, as even there you would have to bow to numerous dictates, such as electrical codes, zoning regulations, business license requirements, insurance rules, etc, and also pay taxes and assorted fees. You might not like the politics of that particular state, but you would have to go along with it, if it was a legally elected government. The comparison with unions is direct, it's just that you are horrified you might end up in some "leftist" organization. If you don't like that though, you can attempt to change it- vote in the union elections.

I'm a little curious now as to your African outlier you have Googled up, just for interests sake. Not that it is going to change history, or the reality of unions today in places like Europe or Australia, the very places that come at the top of the heap in quality of life surveys, over and over.
 
Ganesh said:
The analogy is if you want to belong to a society, or an organization in which you will be given benefits, very often you are required to join, pay dues, or otherwise commit yourself, and not just be a tourist who soaks up the blessings without giving anything back. It still stands in your right to work states, as even there you would have to bow to numerous dictates, such as electrical codes, zoning regulations, business license requirements, insurance rules, etc, and also pay taxes and assorted fees. You might not like the politics of that particular state, but you would have to go along with it, if it was a legally elected government. The comparison with unions is direct, it's just that you are horrified you might end up in some "leftist" organization. If you don't like that though, you can attempt to change it- vote in the union elections.

I'm a little curious now as to your African outlier you have Googled up, just for interests sake. Not that it is going to change history, or the reality of unions today in places like Europe or Australia, the very places that come at the top of the heap in quality of life surveys, over and over.
Click to expand...

I spent a large portion of my career working in Africa. I didn't have to google anything. My knowledge is first hand.
 
Ganesh said:
The analogy is if you want to belong to a society, or an organization in which you will be given benefits, very often you are required to join, pay dues, or otherwise commit yourself, and not just be a tourist who soaks up the blessings without giving anything back. It still stands in your right to work states, as even there you would have to bow to numerous dictates, such as electrical codes, zoning regulations, business license requirements, insurance rules, etc, and also pay taxes and assorted fees. You might not like the politics of that particular state, but you would have to go along with it, if it was a legally elected government. The comparison with unions is direct, it's just that you are horrified you might end up in some "leftist" organization. If you don't like that though, you can attempt to change it- vote in the union elections.

I'm a little curious now as to your African outlier you have Googled up, just for interests sake. Not that it is going to change history, or the reality of unions today in places like Europe or Australia, the very places that come at the top of the heap in quality of life surveys, over and over.
Click to expand...

That is the point, I would not want to belong to the organization. Nor would I be interested in their benefits.
 
Jack Hays said:
I spent a large portion of my career working in Africa. I didn't have to google anything. My knowledge is first hand.
Click to expand...

Then please tell us your rationale for comparing the major developed societies of the world, those with a long history on union, and social legislation progress, with the most benighted backwater of the world, and how unions have helped hold back this area.
 
Ganesh said:
Then please tell us your rationale for comparing the major developed societies of the world, those with a long history on union, and social legislation progress, with the most benighted backwater of the world, and how unions have helped hold back this area.
Click to expand...

I don't have to offer anything. You're the one who made the blanket claim about unions and well being.
 
Jack Hays said:
That is the point, I would not want to belong to the organization. Nor would I be interested in their benefits.
Click to expand...

Yet you belong to the "organization" of America, one currently with a leadership (I'm guessing) you do not approve of, and submit to paying your "dues", in the form of taxes and other expenses, in spite of this. You belong whether you like it or not, because giving anyone, or everyone, the option to bail out, or pay or participate in whatever way please them, simply does not work, quite clearly. Wherever you went, it would be the same. You could find a group of crazed militiamen in Idaho, join them, and then find you don't really agree with some of their policy. Too bad- you are either in, or out. At least unions are democratic, and if you don't like what you see, you can attempt to change things. But in a democracy, the will of the majority is accepted.
 
Ganesh said:
Yet you belong to the "organization" of America, one currently with a leadership (I'm guessing) you do not approve of, and submit to paying your "dues", in the form of taxes and other expenses, in spite of this. You belong whether you like it or not, because giving anyone, or everyone, the option to bail out, or pay or participate in whatever way please them, simply does not work, quite clearly. Wherever you went, it would be the same. You could find a group of crazed militiamen in Idaho, join them, and then find you don't really agree with some of their policy. Too bad- you are either in, or out. At least unions are democratic, and if you don't like what you see, you can attempt to change things. But in a democracy, the will of the majority is accepted.
Click to expand...

Union membership is not in the same league as citizenship. Unions do not compel membership because they are democratic, but rather because they have used their political influence to secure favorable legislation. That's why right to work exists where unions cannot manipulate the system.
 
Jack Hays said:
I don't have to offer anything. You're the one who made the blanket claim about unions and well being.
Click to expand...

True enough, you are under no obligation. Your position here is eroding though, with each one line reply, that says essentially, "ain't so".
 
Jack Hays said:
Union membership is not in the same league as citizenship. Unions do not compel membership because they are democratic, but rather because they have used their political influence to secure favorable legislation. That's why right to work exists where unions cannot manipulate the system.
Click to expand...

Right to work legislation exists were certain other folks have "manipulated the system" for their own well being.

Unions want full membership for the same reasons countries do. How would the US work if, say, half of California decided it didn't want to pay income tax, a few million in New England decided to opt out of unemployment insurance, and New York decided it wasn't going to support the defense budget? If you live in America, you are compelled to participate- or leave. This is the same around the world.

At least in a union, you are only being "compelled" to accept things that benefit you.
 
Ganesh said:
Right to work legislation exists were certain other folks have "manipulated the system" for their own well being.

Unions want full membership for the same reasons countries do. How would the US work if, say, half of California decided it didn't want to pay income tax, a few million in New England decided to opt out of unemployment insurance, and New York decided it wasn't going to support the defense budget? If you live in America, you are compelled to participate- or leave. This is the same around the world.

At least in a union, you are only being "compelled" to accept things that benefit you.
Click to expand...

Unions do not enjoy the level of legitimacy of states. Sorry.
 
Ganesh said:
Yet you belong to the "organization" of America, one currently with a leadership (I'm guessing) you do not approve of, and submit to paying your "dues", in the form of taxes and other expenses, in spite of this. You belong whether you like it or not, because giving anyone, or everyone, the option to bail out, or pay or participate in whatever way please them, simply does not work, quite clearly.
Click to expand...

Is that because the government can't ever hope of ever getting the approval of everyone? Why is respecting that reality a bad thing?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom