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Atheists, lets get real

Elvira said:
Just how do you know God did not create a nature based universe?
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I don't know. I'm not making that claim. However, I understand human history and the psychology of people making things up to explain the unknown. That, in addition to the fact that the gods have been shrinking in stature and duties and power the more we understand about the world around us, and all the things that nature is capable of without divine intervention. Why add the extra step when it has a historic track record of being so wrong?
 
TypicalRussian said:
well a naturally occuring universe needs an infinite regress which is metaphysically impossible
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Metaphysics wouldn't be necessary in a naturally forming universe, would it? Whether something is possible or impossible metaphysically when no such metaphysics is required seems like a silly thing to claim. It also doesn't answer my question. Oh, and a god created universe is not free from infinite regress any more than a natural one. If god didn't need a first cause, he just was, why does the same not apply to a natural universe? In either case, either "something" always existed, or "something" was caused by something else, in which case, infinite regression.
 
ASHES said:
I don't know. I'm not making that claim. However, I understand human history and the psychology of people making things up to explain the unknown. That, in addition to the fact that the gods have been shrinking in stature and duties and power the more we understand about the world around us, and all the things that nature is capable of without divine intervention. Why add the extra step when it has a historic track record of being so wrong?
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Glad to see you admit that, at least...God is the logical answer as much as anything else...
 
TypicalRussian said:
Lets assume at some point you were a Christian,Muslim, or Jew

Why did you switch to atheism?

Be Honest, hence why I said lets get real, no more stupid questioning, no more debating or dancing around, explain to ME why you are an atheist

I am nit trying to convert you either, all I want is for you to explain your position
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Just to make things a little easier, I'll answer the first question you posed in the thread.
1) Your first premise is wrong. I never belonged to any religion, and I have never believed in a supernatural being (Easter Bunny and Santa Claus aside).

2) I was raised in a mostly secular household that still practiced the Christian cultural practices of Easter and Christmas. We also celebrated some pagan holidays like the equinox. None of it required a belief in a supreme being.

3) I have, over the course of my life, attempted several times to be convinced. When I was young, a Christian friend and I would argue about what caused the rain, and similar stuff like that. It seemed absurd to me his explanation for the rain was "god was peeing." I know that's a little silly, but it really made me think about it, and I tried praying to see if that would work. It didn't. In my teens I was curious about all this Jesus stuff, and went to youth group with friends for several months. Wasn't convinced. When I was a young adult, I volunteered for a couple of years running the technology at a friend's church, and listened to a Sunday sermon a week for almost 3 years. I wasn't convinced. I suppose the best analogy I can come up with (although I know it is cliché) is, it is like trying to believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus after the man behind the curtain has been exposed. You can't really force yourself to really believe something, either you're convinced, or you aren't.
 
Elvira said:
Glad to see you admit that, at least...God is the logical answer as much as anything else...
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So also say the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Scientologists, and all the other thousands of other gods humans believe and beleived. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to differentiate between them and parse out the correct supernatural universe creator. Also, most of the major deities are mutually exclusive, so it also isn't convincing to say "they're all just different culture's way of saying the same thing" because they do not even come close to that. If I were to pick the Christian god as the correct one, then I have to figure out which of the mutually exclusive sub categories is correct.
 
ASHES said:
So also say the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Scientologists, and all the other thousands of other gods humans believe and beleived. I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to differentiate between them and parse out the correct supernatural universe creator. Also, most of the major deities are mutually exclusive, so it also isn't convincing to say "they're all just different culture's way of saying the same thing" because they do not even come close to that. If I were to pick the Christian god as the correct one, then I have to figure out which of the mutually exclusive sub categories is correct.
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You have a brain, don't you? Use it...
 
Elvira said:
You have a brain, don't you? Use it...
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I do. It tells me if there is a god, and he was a just and loving God as many like to claim, that he would judge me by my actions, not my acknowledgement of his or her or its or whatever's existence and my token membership in his special club that is indistinguishable from a million other clubs that all were saying they were right and everyone else is wrong, and they were all equally unconvincing. I didn't need threats of eternal torment to not steal, rape, murder, and treat others as I wish to be treated.:)
 
ASHES said:
I do. It tells me if there is a god, and he was a just and loving God as many like to claim, that he would judge me by my actions, not my acknowledgement of his or her or its or whatever's existence and my token membership in his special club that is indistinguishable from a million other clubs that all were saying they were right and everyone else is wrong, and they were all equally unconvincing. I didn't need threats of eternal torment to not steal, rape, murder, and treat others as I wish to be treated.:)
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lol...rest easy...there is no eternal torment...
 
Elvira said:
lol...rest easy...there is no eternal torment...
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Well once all you guys figure out if there is or isn't, let me know and I'll listen again.
 
ASHES said:
Well once all you guys figure out if there is or isn't, let me know and I'll listen again.
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Does a God of love, mercy, and justice compute with eternal torment? No...
 
Elvira said:
Does a God of love, mercy, and justice compute with eternal torment? No...
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That's what I've been trying to tell people for a long time, but they assure me this loving just God does indeed torture you eternally for the most minute transgression. It never frightened me, it just seemed like an odd thing to hold both those things as true. Whether there is or isn't a hell in someone's belief system isn't dispositive of the likelihood I'd believe in it.
 
ASHES said:
That's what I've been trying to tell people for a long time, but they assure me this loving just God does indeed torture you eternally for the most minute transgression. It never frightened me, it just seemed like an odd thing to hold both those things as true. Whether there is or isn't a hell in someone's belief system isn't dispositive of the likelihood I'd believe in it.
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Hell is mankind's grave...nothing more...God has put 2 choices before us...obey Him and life or disobey and die...just as He did with Adam and Eve...no sitting on the fence...

"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants," Deuteronomy 30:19
 
Elvira said:
Hell is mankind's grave...nothing more...God has put 2 choices before us...obey Him and life or disobey and die...just as He did with Adam and Eve...no sitting on the fence...

"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants," Deuteronomy 30:19
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I thought we weren't proselytizing. That sounds like proselytizing.
 
ASHES said:
I do not want your version of the truth. Did you read the OP?
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I did but you're the one who brought up eternal torment...where do you seek your answers on that topic? I look to God's Word...
 
Elvira said:
I did but you're the one who brought up eternal torment...where do you seek your answers on that topic? I look to God's Word...
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I don't seek answers about eternal torment. I was using that version of god as is most often described to me in case I ever met that hypothetical universe creator. I have done the religious debate merry go round. I rode that baby for years, crossing every i and dotting every t, leaving no mousetrap unsprung. There is no argument for any of the dozen or so major hypothetical universe creators I haven't heard a thousand times, and here I sit, unconvinced. I'm not here to ride the whole merry go round again.
 
ASHES said:
I don't seek answers about eternal torment. I was using that version of god as is most often described to me in case I ever met that hypothetical universe creator. I have done the religious debate merry go round. I rode that baby for years, crossing every i and dotting every t, leaving no mousetrap unsprung. There is no argument for any of the dozen or so major hypothetical universe creators I haven't heard a thousand times, and here I sit, unconvinced. I'm not here to ride the whole merry go round again.
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Then, I suggest, if you don't wish to seek answers to life's questions, don't bring them up in the 1st place...but there are answers that make sense, straight from the Bible, regardless...
 
Elvira said:
Then, I suggest, if you don't wish to seek answers to life's questions, don't bring them up in the 1st place...but there are answers that make sense, straight from the Bible, regardless...
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There are no answers sometimes. Admitting that is harder than admitting you could have been wrong your whole life or that you just don't know something. What happens when you die? Nobody knows. Until they die, then they aren't telling anyone.
 
Elvira said:
Then, I suggest, if you don't wish to seek answers to life's questions, don't bring them up in the 1st place...but there are answers that make sense, straight from the Bible, regardless...
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I want answers that aren't lies myself.
 
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