Atheism is a religion (2 Viewers)

[SPLOGAN]

atheism is not a cause, principle, or system of beliefs. Nor does it have "faith" as faith is applied to religous beliefs.

This is circular logic. You're trying to demonstrate that atheism is not a religious belief by assuming that atheism is not a religious belief.

I'm not exactly sure where I stand anymore in this debate. Atheism can be no more or less religious than "theism," and I don't think that theism is a particular religion. It is, however, a religious position. This is true in the same way that "apolitical" and "political" are both social positions but neither represent a particular social system. Hmmm...

As a Christian, I personally believe that Christianity (in a certain way) is the only true religion. Therefore I could exclude every other system of beliefs as not religious (or false religions).
I think that atheists do the same type of thing with their beliefs. In other words, atheists don't want to share a category for their beliefs with other belief systems. They would rather assign their beliefs to another category because they would rather be above the debate than an equal participant in the debate.

I do not say that to piss people off. I'm just trying to get down to the heart of the matter. Please understand.

 

[Duke]

I think that atheists do the same type of thing with their beliefs. In other words, atheists don't want to share a category for their beliefs with other belief systems. They would rather assign their beliefs to another category because they would rather be above the debate than an equal participant in the debate.

There is only one belief in Atheism: That God does not exist. This is not a religion, a dogma, and it is certianly not in the same category as Christianity. It's not as simple as a "Belief system".


Duke

 

[SPLOGAN]

There is only one belief in Atheism: That God does not exist. This is not a religion, a dogma, and it is certianly not in the same category as Christianity. It's not as simple as a "Belief system".

True.
However, there is only one "theism" as well.

There are also many categories of theism as a religion:
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.

There are many categories of atheism as a religion:
Buddhism, Wicca, Humanism (arguably), etc.

That's why I still cannot call atheism "a religion." It is however "religious."

 

[afr0byte]

True.
However, there is only one "theism" as well.

There are also many categories of theism as a religion:
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.

There are many categories of atheism as a religion:
Buddhism, Wicca, Humanism (arguably), etc.

That's why I still cannot call atheism "a religion." It is however "religious."

Buddhism maye be an atheistic religion (that is they don't believe in a god). However, that does not mean that being an atheist means one is religious.

 

[SPLOGAN]

Buddhism maye be an atheistic religion (that is they don't believe in a god). However, that does not mean that being an atheist means one is religious.

True, but those who are "not religious" still have religious beliefs in the same way that those who are "not scientific" still have scientific beliefs.

Being a theist does not mean one is religious either.

Again, I am not arguing that "Atheism is a religion." I am arguing that those who are Atheists have religious beliefs, just like everyone else. Atheists' belief in no God is integral to their religious beliefs. Those beliefs determine the way people view the Universe. In that way, atheism is a category of religion.

What other category could it fall under?

 

[dsanthony]

religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

ardor : extreme vigor or energy.

faith :firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

Atheists would like you to think that religion should be removed from states, local government, court rooms, and publice schools. The problem is that Atheism is a religion. It fits the defintion of the word. Every one has a religion who is a cognitive being because everone has a system of beliefs even atheist or a cause. Even if that cause is merely them selves. Oh and atheist do have faith
because they believe in something they can't prove. Because they can't prove there is no god,or gods etc...

Well, athiesm is a "religion" in the sense that a rabid football fan can say that football is his "religion." But it is not a religion. It is more accurately described as a philosophy, possibly a system of belief.

I'm an agnostic, not an athiest. This is an old argument. Rabid athiests do have "faith in things unseen", or rather faith that things unseen do not exist. But it is a negative faith, not a positive one. Religious types have faith in something they have not seen and have no proof of. Athiests base thier "faith" on what can be seen or proven, and dismiss anything which does not have a material basis of fact.

 

[Duke]

True.
However, there is only one "theism" as well.

There are also many categories of theism as a religion:
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.

There are many categories of atheism as a religion:
Buddhism, Wicca, Humanism (arguably), etc.

That's why I still cannot call atheism "a religion." It is however "religious."

You know what? I'm going to give you the benifit of the doubt on this one. I am going to assume that you're not lying, but that you simply don't know what you're talking about. Let's clear this up, shall we?

Dictionary
theism |????iz?m| noun belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

religious |ri?lij?s| adjective believing in and worshiping a superhuman controlling power or powers, esp. a personal God or gods : both men were deeply religious, intelligent, and moralistic. • (of a belief or practice) forming part of someone's thought about or worship of a divine being : he has strong religious convictions. • of or relating to the worship of or a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings : religious music. • belonging or relating to a monastic order or other group of people who are united by their practice of religion : religious houses were built on ancient pagan sites. • treated or regarded with a devotion and scrupulousness appropriate to worship : I have a religious aversion to reading manuals.

Athiesm is none of the above:

Dictionary
atheism |?????iz?m| noun the theory or belief that God does not exist.


Did that help?:mrgreen:


Duke

 

[SPLOGAN]

You know what? I'm going to give you the benifit of the doubt on this one. I am going to assume that you're not lying, but that you simply don't know what you're talking about. Let's clear this up, shall we?

Dictionary
theism |????iz?m| noun belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

religious |ri?lij?s| adjective believing in and worshiping a superhuman controlling power or powers, esp. a personal God or gods : both men were deeply religious, intelligent, and moralistic. • (of a belief or practice) forming part of someone's thought about or worship of a divine being : he has strong religious convictions. • of or relating to the worship of or a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings : religious music. • belonging or relating to a monastic order or other group of people who are united by their practice of religion : religious houses were built on ancient pagan sites. • treated or regarded with a devotion and scrupulousness appropriate to worship : I have a religious aversion to reading manuals.

Athiesm is none of the above:

Dictionary
atheism |?????iz?m| noun the theory or belief that God does not exist.

Did that help?:mrgreen:

Apparently not. I'll offer you my help:

Atheism would fall under the "a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings" section of your definition of "religious."

Atheism and theism are two opposite religious "doctrines."

 

[afr0byte]

Apparently not. I'll offer you my help:

Atheism would fall under the "a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings" section of your definition of "religious."

Atheism and theism are two opposite religious "doctrines."

No, not at all. Atheism is the default position. When someone is born they don't know of a god/religion (hence why Sunday schools/etc exist). Oh, and also, look at this:

doctrine
n

Definition: opinion; principle
Antonyms: disbelief, heterodoxy, skepticism, unbelief

 

[SPLOGAN]

No, not at all. Atheism is the default position. When someone is born they don't know of a god/religion.

I disagree. This may have been true for you.
Do you espouse that as a universal principal?
When someone is born, do they know of a way to know anything?
How do people learn to know? Or do they just know how to know?
What's your point anyway?
What relevance is one's "default position" in this debate about atheism being religious?

doctrine
n

Definition: opinion; principle
Antonyms: disbelief, heterodoxy, skepticism, unbelief

That's a nice concise definition of doctrine.
Opinion, principal, belief, etc. is the basis for both theism and atheism (not to mention everything else one knows).

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Apparently not. I'll offer you my help:

Atheism would fall under the "a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings" section of your definition of "religious."

Atheism and theism are two opposite religious "doctrines."

of or relating to the worship of or a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings : religious music.

This means that the atheist statement "there is no god" would be a religious statement. It does not mean that atheism is a religion. Atheism can be seen as a philosophy/belief/doctrine/opinion concerning religion; this does not mean it is itself a religion. My handy dictionary defines "religion" as "An organized system of beliefs and rituals centering on a supernatural being or beings." Atheism is not organized, it is not a system of beliefs, it has no rituals, and it does not center around supernatural beings. Therefore it is not a religion.

 

[Duke]

Apparently not. I'll offer you my help:

Atheism would fall under the "a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings" section of your definition of "religious."

Atheism and theism are two opposite religious "doctrines."

You took it out of context to make it appear to mean a different thing than it actually means:

of or relating to the worship of or a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings

You just can't trust these people.:x

You just lost the benifit of the doubt.


Duke

 

[SPLOGAN]

This means that the atheist statement "there is no god" would be a religious statement. It does not mean that atheism is a religion. Atheism can be seen as a philosophy/belief/doctrine/opinion concerning religion; this does not mean it is itself a religion. My handy dictionary defines "religion" as "An organized system of beliefs and rituals centering on a supernatural being or beings." Atheism is not organized, it is not a system of beliefs, it has no rituals, and it does not center around supernatural beings. Therefore it is not a religion.

Bingo. Need there be further debate here?
Atheism is a religious belief but it is not a religious system.
Atheism is therefor NOT "a religion."

I'm done. :2wave:

 

[afr0byte]

What relevance is one's "default position" in this debate about atheism being religious?

It's like, for example, someone saying that they can fly, without any prior evidence provided showing that they might be able to fly. I'm not likely to believe them unless they prove to me that they can fly. Otherwise, I would be resorting to faith (a religious belief). I'm not an atheist because I choose to disbelieve in some proven god (indeed, no one as proven the existence of a god). I'm an atheist because I choose not to make a leap of faith stating that there is a god when there is no evidence that I have seen to indicate the existence of a god.

That's a nice concise definition of doctrine.
Opinion, principal, belief, etc. is the basis for both theism and atheism (not to mention everything else one knows).

Uh, did you see the antonyms (words that mean the opposite...disbelief, etc....atheism is disbelief in a god)?

 

[Duke]

Bingo. Need there be further debate here?
Atheism is a religious belief but it is not a religious system.
Atheism is therefor NOT "a religion."

I'm done. :2wave:

I would like to clarify that by saying that Atheism is a belief about religion, as opposed to a religious belief. It makes all the difference, you know! :mrgreen:


Duke

 

[Stinger]

This is circular logic.

Actually it is straight as an arrow.

You're trying to demonstrate that atheism is not a religious belief by assuming that atheism is not a religious belief.

No I'm demonstrating that the premise the OP used to conclude that atheism is a religion is faulty and therefore the conclusion does not hold.

He used the incorrect definition of faith as it applies to religion.

I'm not exactly sure where I stand anymore in this debate. Atheism can be no more or less religious than "theism," and I don't think that theism is a particular religion.

Atheism is nothing in particular in fact it's always puzzled my why there is even such a word. Is there a word for people who don't believe in Leprehcons? Of how about people who don't believe in monsters or UFO's or deep sea dragons? I believe "theism" does believe in a supernatural being, a supreme being who has dictated proper behaviors and beliefs.

As a Christian, I personally believe that Christianity (in a certain way) is the only true religion.

But by narph's defition you really believe in many religions. By his definition believing in civil rights is a religion. Believing in anything is a religion by his use of the word faith so you actually have many religions.

Therefore I could exclude every other system of beliefs as not religious (or false religions).

False religion is only in the eye of the beholder.

I think that atheists do the same type of thing with their beliefs.

The only commonality amongst "atheists" is that they don't believe in a supernatual being overseeing us. That's it, that is all atheism is, it is nothing more.

In other words, atheists don't want to share a category for their beliefs with other belief systems.

Other than your belief in Jesus and the Judeo/Christian God, what do you believe that you think I don't believe as far a philosophy of life?

They would rather assign their beliefs to another category because they would rather be above the debate than an equal participant in the debate.

Sorry but I totally lost you there. Could you restate?

I do not say that to piss people off. I'm just trying to get down to the heart of the matter. Please understand.

I understand, except for what beliefs do you think I want to assign to anyone? I want and encourage you to believe in whatever religious belief suits your fancy. And I hope it helps you find whatever it is you are looking for in life. I think it's great.

 

[Adrian]

LOL, As sweet as it would be. I wouldnt accept anything I didnt earn.

Technically, if you were tax-exempt, wouldn't this mean that you would keep what you did earn?

 

[Thinker]

To sum up: some define religion so that anything you think about fits the
definition; others take the view that not believing in something for which
there is no evidence is not a religion.

They pick their definition depending on what conclusion they wish to
support. These two sides will stick to their points of view and continuing
discussion is futile.

It would be better to pick words that can be defined unambiguously
and use them instead. Often when religion is mentioned, theism is
actually meant.

 

[Schnigelmeister]

If you define just believing in somethin as being a religion, then it's impossible to escape.
Try not believing in anything at all, and you'll se it's impossible :2razz:

PEACE

 

[Duke]

"Yes, I'm religious: I'm an A's fan."

See, that just isn't the point.


Duke

P.S. A's are winning American League West!!!

 

[kal-el]

Atheism is how we are born, it is simply a negative. A lack of god-belief. There's nothing positive uniting atheists. The only stereotypical quality uniting them is a negative - a lack of god-belief. It's the blank slate, the neutral ground, the default setting on the "god" issue. A religion is a bit like a fratenity of some sorts, a group of people, attained with it's own set of beliefs, symbols, taboos, and etiqutte. Certain fraternitys are theistic, ie Christianity, while others aren't, ie Buddhism, but in the end, they're all frats.. An atheist is just one who has resisted joining one of these fancy frats. That fact doesn't make atheism a fratenity itself.

 

[Thelost1]

maybe someone has already posted this, I quit reading somewhere in the teens of this thread when we were talking about words and definitions.
This is how I see it:

Accoriding to the scientific method the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the person making the positive statement.
i.e.

1)You place an empty glass in front of me and say that it is full. In order for me and the scientific communitey at large to accept your hypothosis YOU must prove to me that it is full. You cannot do this, therefore I reject your hypothosis. I do not need to disprove you unless you give a reason for the glass being full, then I can disprove that argument, however, until you make that argument the default position is the negative.

2)You place a glass filled with water in front of me and state that it is full. The default position is that it is empty. You invoke a previously accepted theorem which states that a full glass will spill over when tipped(the Tippation theorem. You conduct an experiment in which you tip the glass over in accordance with the Tippation theroem, water pours out. You have just offered irrefutable proof that the glass is full. If I wished, I could challenge your experiment, saying that the water on the table was ther before, this would be a weak argument, however, due to the recordings of your experimen that show water falling from the glass.

3)You walk up to me and tell me that there is a god who created the universe, rules over heaven, etc. You must now prove to me that this god exists, using previously established thereoms and postulates. Since you cannot do this, the god remains a belief, and I reject your hypothosis. This does not mean that I believe that there is no god, I simply see no reason to believe that there is a god.

Note: Don't say that the scientific method is worthless or useless, we would not be having this discussion if it was useless.

 

[kal-el]

Accoriding to the scientific method the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the person making the positive statement.

Right. In this case the burden of proof falls on the shoulder's of the believer, not the doubter. It's that case all the time, it's just when we're talking about religion do people complain about it.

This does not mean that I believe that there is no god, I simply see no reason to believe that there is a god.

Well, I simply lack a "god" belief, mostly from the overhwelming lack of evidence presented for such. Not to say that I wouldn't be pursuaded by actual evidence.

 

[Thelost1]

SEEEEEEE, SEEEEEEEEE
Kal-el understands me...

 

[Duke]

I've been thinking the same things, but I have never put them into words. Bravo, you two. :mrgreen:


Duke