• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

As Trump dithers over Ukraine, Russia’s military edge weakens, officials say

Actually, the war has largely ground down to a stalemate. So unless you have something like a complete collapse of Putin's government, they aren't going anywhere



Again, Ukraine can only fight until the money runs out. And Trump is ready to cut the money.

So let's look at what a fair agreement might look like.

Russia gets to keep the Donbas and Crimea, but gives back Zapohra and Kershon.

Ukraine gets security garuntees and is allowed to join the EU and NATO.

Russia pays Ukraine compensation for the land they gain.





Or it could trigger World War III.
That seems to be the best that can be managed.
 
Okay, a few points.

The first point is, we aren't talking about Kyiv or Odessa, we are talking about Donbas and Crimea. Places that are not historically part of Ukraine, but were assigned to the former Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet leadership.

They were willing to be part of the new Ukraine initially as long as they were allowed to have a voice in the process. That voice was silenced when the Ukrainian majority overthrew Yanukovych (With US collusion) and that's when they took up arms.

So Russia's position that they need to protect ethnic Russians has some validity.
From the election that resulted in Ukraine leaving the USSR both Donbas region and Crimea voted yes so im not so sure its a matter of the USSR assigning.
 
The "next guy" isn't necessarily a warmonger. His successor might not be attempting to restore the former Soviet Union.




Read Putin's demands. Putin wants everything. You tell me one thing he will concede or compromise in.



Why annex Belarus when they're already a puppet state?

Were you aware that his legal counsel announced that the USSR wasn't legally dissolved? Why would they bother making a declaration about something that happened 30 years ago? Read about how Putin regrets the breakup of the USSR.

Putin started this war and he's the only one in Earth who can stop it today.
Putin isnt trying to restore the USSR,
 
You never addressed the main point. You posted a question and I answered it.

******
You asked:
Why do we have a huge alliance that exists SOLELY to oppose Russia?

And the question is still out there, because NATO didn't disband when Communism fell and Russia became democratic.

CONCLUSION
His rationale for the invasion of Ukraine is self-determination. If that were true, he wouldn't send as many as 200,000 Russians to their death. But more importantly, the ethnic groups within his borders have been brutally coerced, and men of these groups are the first to be called to the front line. This is the contradiction that clearly demonstrates he is NOT interested in indigenous peoples, he is NOT conducting this war for self-determination because he only sends the Russians he doesn't want, while sparing the Muscovites. The indigenous subjects of the Russian Federation are less important than ethnic Russians. That contradicts self-determination and reveals that the concept is only an excuse for his war of conquest.

Both sides use conscription to fight wars. Hello.

At the end of the day, what Putin's motives are really aren't the point. Maybe he does have fantasies of conquering all of Europe. He doesn't have the capability, though, and antagonizing a nuclear bear over the Donbas isn't worth the risk.



Answer:
Because Putin is the most dangerous and reckless dictator on the planet. Europeans know who Putin is, that's why.

Then let the Europeans fight them and stop leaning on us for support.

I don't see a bunch of Europeans rushing over to fight in Ukraine. Or any of the American idiots flying Blue and Yellow flags, for that matter. "Oh, look, I put a Ukraine flag on my avi">

1749938279585.webp
 
That makes no sense. Just because they were "part of Russia" for "x" amount of years before being independent does not give Putzin the right to invade them with claims of "reclaiming territory".

Nor does it make sense to antagonize Russia by deploying troops and weapons to their former territories.
 
From the election that resulted in Ukraine leaving the USSR both Donbas region and Crimea voted yes so im not so sure its a matter of the USSR assigning.

Did they though? Or did the border just get established based on the former internal borders of the USSR and no one questioned it at the time.

That seems to be the best that can be managed.

Or we negotiate a peace treaty, everyone gets something they want, no one goes away entirely happy.
 
Yeah, you are willing to fight to the last Ukrainian.

It's not like you are taking any chances.



Maybe we should. The Constitution isn't a suicide pact.
Nobody is signing a suicide pact lol.
 
Did they though? Or did the border just get established based on the former internal borders of the USSR and no one questioned it at the time.



Or we negotiate a peace treaty, everyone gets something they want, no one goes away entirely happy.
They did actually. I’ve already posted the full results to Dandolo. Every oblast in Ukraine voted. Crimea was more of a 50/50 split with a few percentage voting more yes.
 
Wow a couple people waving mexican flags is sure going to destroy the US. Only dumbass cowards think so
 
Nobody is signing a suicide pact lol.

Seems like this country is already on a path to slow suicide.

They did actually. I’ve already posted the full results to Dandolo. Every oblast in Ukraine voted. Crimea was more of a 50/50 split with a few percentage voting more yes.

And now they have a different opinion. The problem was that Ukraine promised Ethnic Russians they'd have a voice, which was yanked out from underneath them with the Maiden Coup. (I refuse to call it a revolution, it was a coup.)

Wow a couple people waving mexican flags is sure going to destroy the US. Only dumbass cowards think so

Again, I'm horrified by Trump's immigration policies, but the numbnuts waving Mexican Flags and burning stuff are only making his point.
 
Seems like this country is already on a path to slow suicide.



And now they have a different opinion. The problem was that Ukraine promised Ethnic Russians they'd have a voice, which was yanked out from underneath them with the Maiden Coup. (I refuse to call it a revolution, it was a coup.)



Again, I'm horrified by Trump's immigration policies, but the numbnuts waving Mexican Flags and burning stuff are only making his point.
Only in your fever dreams. We’ve survived worse than people waving flags and the occasional burning.
 
Like the amount of idiots that think waving a flag of where you come from is somehow a statement of hating the country is ****ing wild lol!
 
Nor does it make sense to antagonize Russia by deploying troops and weapons to their former territories.

Then maybe Russia should stop threatening its neighbors & there wouldn't be troop build-ups.
 
To the Putinistas... once Russian always Russian.

It's just like China too.

If it's within their field of view, it's "Chinese land". Poor Tibet learned that the hard way. Every once in a while, India is reminded of that lesson as well.
 
It's just like China too.

If it's within their field of view, it's "Chinese land". Poor Tibet learned that the hard way. Every once in a while, India is reminded of that lesson as well.
There is a good reason these countries behave the way do. In many cases their land really was stolen by other countries or illegally seceded. Russia taking back Ukraine is a good example of this. Ukraine illegally seceded.
 
Only in your fever dreams. We’ve survived worse than people waving flags and the occasional burning.

When a country looses it's national identity, then, yes, it is in decline.

I'm personally horrified by Trump's xenophobia and racism, but the fact is burning people's stuff and flying foreign flags and beating up police officers just plays right into his hands.

Like the amount of idiots that think waving a flag of where you come from is somehow a statement of hating the country is ****ing wild lol!

If you like that place so much, go back there. My dad was an immigrant from Germany. You'd never see me waving a German flag. My wife is an immigrant from China. You won't see her waving a commie Chinese flag, either.

Then maybe Russia should stop threatening its neighbors & there wouldn't be troop build-ups.

Who is threatening who? NATO promised not to expand in the 1990s, but now we've moved up right to Russia's borders in former Soviet Republics.

It's just like China too.

If it's within their field of view, it's "Chinese land". Poor Tibet learned that the hard way. Every once in a while, India is reminded of that lesson as well.

Okay, let's look at that one.

Tibet was never recognized as an independent country. It was always seen as a part of first the Qing Dynasty, then the Republic of China, before the People's Republic reasserted its authority there.

The problem with our dealings with China is that we keep playing these games with them that their country isn't their country. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang, even some stupid islands in the South China Sea.


There is a good reason these countries behave the way do. In many cases their land really was stolen by other countries or illegally seceded. Russia taking back Ukraine is a good example of this. Ukraine illegally seceded.

I wouldn't go that far, because Russia initially agreed to the separation. But an adjustment of borders based on demography isn't really an unreasonable ask.

There's no way Ukraine is going back to their 2014 borders. It just isn't happening.
 
Nor does it make sense to antagonize Russia by deploying troops and weapons to their former territories.

Former is the key word here. But the typist can't seem to comprehend his own words.
 
And the question is still out there, because NATO didn't disband when Communism fell and Russia became democratic.
Both sides use conscription to fight wars. Hello.

At the end of the day, what Putin's motives are really aren't the point. Maybe he does have fantasies of conquering all of Europe. He doesn't have the capability, though, and antagonizing a nuclear bear over the Donbas isn't worth the risk.
Then let the Europeans fight them and stop leaning on us for support.

I don't see a bunch of Europeans rushing over to fight in Ukraine.

I have continually and consistently posted that a new referendum is needed to prove Putin's claims. A ceasefire would be needed to precede any vote. Putin has never lost an election and has never allowed international monitors to observe the elections he arranges. I have always advocated for peace, but Putin has shown no desire to end the war without total surrender and capitulation, which will lead to further conquest.

Putin lies about self-determination.
Putin has a long record of human rights and civil rights violations documented by the UN and other international organizations. Putin sent undesirable Russians who lived in the Russian Federation to die for ethnic Russians in the eastern oblasts. Until they were depleted, indigenous men were killed first. Putin has shown no value for human life by sending up to 200,000 Russian soldiers to their death.

Putin has not demanded independence for eastern oblasts. They are to be annexed under his rule. This does not signify any effort to fulfill self-determination. How is it possible that the war is justified with the obvious contradiction that he is wiping out populations of indigenous men who lived in the Russian Federation, and his demands are not independence for eastern oblasts?


Putin lies about security

In 1991, no nation wanted the Warsaw Pact to continue. Sixteen countries in NATO were under no obligation to dissolve. They didn't. Europe knows that NATO is not a threat; otherwise, the Warsaw Pact would have survived without USSR. By contrast, in 1991 and now, Europe knew the USSR was a continual threat. NATO hasn't started a war. Putin has done that.


Do you think demanding a legitimate and genuine ceasefire will make him mad enough to launch nukes?


How do demands for annexation into the Russian Federation and the civil rights violations, human rights violations, and KIA fatalities among large swaths of indigenous Russions show any attempt or effort whatsoever in the name of self-determination?


Was there a nation that wanted the Warsaw Pact to continue? Why not?


How is NATO a threat to Russia, as long as Russia never attacks first?


Who ended the very, very brief period of democracy in Russia?


Do you think the Soviet Union is still a nation-state?
 
Putin isnt trying to restore the USSR,
I don't think he can, but I believe he is delusional enough to believe that, and I don't doubt he will continue attempting it until his resources are depleted.
 
Former is the key word here. But the typist can't seem to comprehend his own words.

I comprehend it just fine. Russia is reacting the same way we'd react if China sent troops to Mexico.


I have continually and consistently posted that a new referendum is needed to prove Putin's claims. A ceasefire would be needed to precede any vote. Putin has never lost an election and has never allowed international monitors to observe the elections he arranges. I have always advocated for peace, but Putin has shown no desire to end the war without total surrender and capitulation, which will lead to further conquest.

Putin lies about self-determination.
Putin has a long record of human rights and civil rights violations documented by the UN and other international organizations. Putin sent undesirable Russians who lived in the Russian Federation to die for ethnic Russians in the eastern oblasts. Until they were depleted, indigenous men were killed first. Putin has shown no value for human life by sending up to 200,000 Russian soldiers to their death.

War is hell. The same can be said of Zelenskyy sending old men and little boys to the front, while he cosplays in fatigues.

Putin has not demanded independence for eastern oblasts. They are to be annexed under his rule. This does not signify any effort to fulfill self-determination. How is it possible that the war is justified with the obvious contradiction that he is wiping out populations of indigenous men who lived in the Russian Federation, and his demands are not independence for eastern oblasts?

Not seeing the issue here. The Eastern Oblasts aren't strong enough to be independent countries.

Putin lies about security
In 1991, no nation wanted the Warsaw Pact to continue. Sixteen countries in NATO were under no obligation to dissolve. They didn't. Europe knows that NATO is not a threat; otherwise, the Warsaw Pact would have survived without USSR. By contrast, in 1991 and now, Europe knew the USSR was a continual threat. NATO hasn't started a war. Putin has done that.

That's the problem, NATO SHOULD have dissolved when the Cold War ended and the Warsaw Pact disbanded. Instead, it expanded to encompass all the former Warsaw Pact members AND the Baltic States.

Do you think demanding a legitimate and genuine ceasefire will make him mad enough to launch nukes?

Do you want to find out? I don't.

How is NATO a threat to Russia, as long as Russia never attacks first?

Russia has been invaded from the west by Germany (Twice), the UK and France, France by herself, and even POLAND.

Pretending they don't have a legitimate concern about an anti-Russia Alliance setting up shop within their former borders is disingenous, to say the least.
 
I comprehend it just fine. Russia is reacting the same way we'd react if China sent troops to Mexico.






War is hell. The same can be said of Zelenskyy sending old men and little boys to the front, while he cosplays in fatigues.



Not seeing the issue here. The Eastern Oblasts aren't strong enough to be independent countries.



That's the problem, NATO SHOULD have dissolved when the Cold War ended and the Warsaw Pact disbanded. Instead, it expanded to encompass all the former Warsaw Pact members AND the Baltic States.



Do you want to find out? I don't.



Russia has been invaded from the west by Germany (Twice), the UK and France, France by herself, and even POLAND.

Pretending they don't have a legitimate concern about an anti-Russia Alliance setting up shop within their former borders is disingenous, to say the least.

Your denial is without reason. You didn't explain anything.

You didn't answer the questions.


How do demands for annexation into the Russian Federation and civil rights violations, human rights violations, and KIA fatalities among large swaths of indigenous Russions show any attempt or effort whatsoever in the name of self-determination?



Was there a nation that wanted the Warsaw Pact to continue? Why not?



How is NATO a threat to Russia, as long as Russia never attacks first?



Who ended the very, very brief period of democracy in Russia?



Do you think the Soviet Union is still a nation-state?
 
When a country looses it's national identity, then, yes, it is in decline.

I'm personally horrified by Trump's xenophobia and racism, but the fact is burning people's stuff and flying foreign flags and beating up police officers just plays right into his hands.



If you like that place so much, go back there. My dad was an immigrant from Germany. You'd never see me waving a German flag. My wife is an immigrant from China. You won't see her waving a commie Chinese flag, either.



Who is threatening who? NATO promised not to expand in the 1990s, but now we've moved up right to Russia's borders in former Soviet Republics.



Okay, let's look at that one.

Tibet was never recognized as an independent country. It was always seen as a part of first the Qing Dynasty, then the Republic of China, before the People's Republic reasserted its authority there.

The problem with our dealings with China is that we keep playing these games with them that their country isn't their country. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang, even some stupid islands in the South China Sea.




I wouldn't go that far, because Russia initially agreed to the separation. But an adjustment of borders based on demography isn't really an unreasonable ask.

There's no way Ukraine is going back to their 2014 borders. It just isn't happening.
There is nothing identity losing about a few people waving mexican flags anymore than the Irish waving Irish flags. What horseshit you spew. Not that you are ever going to get your wish.
 
Back
Top Bottom