Army Bans Some Interrogation Techniques

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by TOT;
No but it is public knowledge now it is the most widely publisized case of waterboarding there is.

I guess dunking Colonel Sanders would make some news.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I guess dunking Colonel Sanders would make some news.

What the hell does that mean?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by TOT;
What the hell does that mean?

You said they water-boarded KFC!

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You said they water-boarded KFC!

No KSM Kaleid Sheihk Mohammad.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by TOT;
No KSM Kaleid Sheihk Mohammad.

Heard he's pretty good with chicken's.

 

[jfuh]

KSM broke under waterboarding in less than 2 minutes.

And you aquired this info from where? What information has it yeilded? has it led to the capture of OBL? Are our soldiers now out of harms way?
Back up your own claims tot.
Answer the questions.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

And you aquired this info from where?

It's the mostly widely publisized case of waterboarding out there it's even in wikipedia on the article about waterboarding.

What information has it yeilded?

Have you read the 9-11 Commission Report? Much of the info on the "Planes Operation," was gleamed from KSM; furthermore, much of the intel we got from KSM is probably still classified.

has it led to the capture of OBL?

Well considering that we knew where OBL was before we captured KSM and OBL disappeared after we captured KSM I don't see how KSM would know where he is.

Are our soldiers now out of harms way?

I'm sure it has he was afterall the planner of 9-11 and we captured him Afghanistan.

 

[jfuh]

It's the mostly widely publisized case of waterboarding out there it's even in wikipedia on the article about waterboarding.

Again, back up your own claims. Not torturing puts our soldiers in harms way how?

Have you read the 9-11 Commission Report? Much of the info on the "Planes Operation," was gleamed from KSM; furthermore, much of the intel we got from KSM is probably still classified.

Oh wow, past information that has already happened. Maybe if Bush hadn't taken so many vacations KSM would've been caught before then huh?

Well considering that we knew where OBL was before we captured KSM and OBL disappeared after we captured KSM I don't see how KSM would know where he is.

Ahh I see, so the waterboarding has proven useless for intel for the capture of OBL, and the case in IRaq and how to stop AQ. Gottcha.

I'm sure it has he was afterall the planner of 9-11 and we captured him Afghanistan.

He was the planner of 9/11 and thus our soldiers in Iraq today are safer because we know about 9/11. Right.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Have you read the 9-11 Commission Report? Much of the info on the "Planes Operation," was gleamed from KSM;

Yet nowhere in that report does it mention how the information was gained. You don't even know what information he revealed after 2 minutes of waterboarding. For all you know he begged to confess that he was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll.

furthermore, much of the intel we got from KSM is probably still classified.

You defend waterboarding by speculating about things you admit you know nothing about. Nice.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Again, back up your own claims. Not torturing puts our soldiers in harms way how?

A) I don't consider waterboarding torture.

B) It puts them in danger because it hurts our ability to get information that can save their lives it's really rather self explanatory.

Oh wow, past information that has already happened. Maybe if Bush hadn't taken so many vacations KSM would've been caught before then huh?

And maybe if Clinton hadn't been such a ***** OBL would be dead right now. Furthermore; I'm sure we got more info from KSM than just the Planes Operation it's just that most of it is probably still classified and regardless he was just an example of how effective waterboarding is.

Ahh I see, so the waterboarding has proven useless for intel for the capture of OBL,

OBL escaped from Tora Bora after we captured KSM so how would KSM no where OBL is?

and the case in IRaq

KSM was captured before the war in Iraq started so how would his capture help in the Iraq war?

and how to stop AQ. Gottcha.

He gave us massive amounts of information on AQ haven't you read the 9-11 Commission Report? And that was just the stuff that's declassified.

He was the planner of 9/11 and thus our soldiers in Iraq today are safer because we know about 9/11. Right.

Do you know what an example is? KSM is an example of how waterboarding is effective for extracting information from hardcore Jihadis.

 

[jfuh]

A) I don't consider waterboarding torture.

It doesn't matter what you consider, all that matters is what the law states.
Do you consider boiling someone alive cruel and unusual punishment? Beheading?

B) It puts them in danger because it hurts our ability to get information that can save their lives it's really rather self explanatory.

Hey guess what? GB got the intel of liquid bombing without torture or breaking the law. hmmm seems to completely turn your argument around on your head. Or are you forgeting that, oh I mean denying it happened?

And maybe if Clinton hadn't been such a ***** OBL would be dead right now. Furthermore; I'm sure we got more info from KSM than just the Planes Operation it's just that most of it is probably still classified and regardless he was just an example of how effective waterboarding is.

What did Bush say right after 9/11 in March 2002?
"I don't really care much for him (OBL)" Or did you forget those words.
As for getting more info, hey, that's all you said, plans for 9/11.

OBL escaped from Tora Bora after we captured KSM so how would KSM no where OBL is?

KSM could know from commonly used hideouts safe houses ect. Or of contacts that could know or would know. There're plenty of methods, but doesn't seem that anything he knew helped. So again tot, how has his confessions protected our troops in Iraq? In Afganistan? It is your premise that torture protects our troops yet have not provided a single instance yet of such a case.

KSM was captured before the war in Iraq started so how would his capture help in the Iraq war?

Being your only successful example, you tell me tot, how does it keep our soldiers safe?

He gave us massive amounts of information on AQ haven't you read the 9-11 Commission Report? And that was just the stuff that's declassified.

9/11 report states nothing of how the info was obtained.

Do you know what an example is? KSM is an example of how waterboarding is effective for extracting information from hardcore Jihadis.

What information was extracted from him tot?

 

[Binary_Digit]

9/11 report states nothing of how the info was obtained.

What information was extracted from him tot?

Exactly. Tot assumes that since KSM "broke" in under 2 minutes of waterboarding, all the information he provided was a result of that waterboarding and nothing else worked. He admits he doesn't even know what KSM revealed during the waterboarding session because it's still classified, yet he wants us to believe that waterboarding KSM has been effective in preventing further attacks. :roll:

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

It doesn't matter what you consider, all that matters is what the law states.

And the Army training manual is the law now?

Do you consider boiling someone alive cruel and unusual punishment? Beheading?

Are you honestly comparing that to waterboarding?

Hey guess what? GB got the intel of liquid bombing without torture or breaking the law. hmmm seems to completely turn your argument around on your head. Or are you forgeting that, oh I mean denying it happened?

GB uses tactics of survelience which are not allowed in the U.S..

What did Bush say right after 9/11 in March 2002?
"I don't really care much for him (OBL)" Or did you forget those words.
As for getting more info, hey, that's all you said, plans for 9/11.

What he meant was that OBL is pretty much just a figure head now his operational capablities have been severely hurt by GWB's policies.

KSM could know from commonly used hideouts safe houses ect.

Yep and we did check out all of those and had OBL pinned down in Tora Bora but we relied on the Pakistanis to cut off his escape route which was a mistake.

Or of contacts that could know or would know. There're plenty of methods, but doesn't seem that anything he knew helped. So again tot, how has his confessions protected our troops in Iraq? In Afganistan? It is your premise that torture protects our troops yet have not provided a single instance yet of such a case.

Say there is an immediate plan in the works for an IED bombing and we capture one of the plotters and time is of the essence do you really think the detainee is going to talk without coercive measures?

Being your only successful example, you tell me tot, how does it keep our soldiers safe?

It proves that waterboarding is effective at extracting information.

9/11 report states nothing of how the info was obtained.

It is well known that the information obtained from KSM was extracted through the use of waterboarding.

What information was extracted from him tot?

Everything he knew the interrogator stated that after 2 minutes of waterboarding KSM was begging to talk.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Exactly. Tot assumes that since KSM "broke" in under 2 minutes of waterboarding, all the information he provided was a result of that waterboarding and nothing else worked. He admits he doesn't even know what KSM revealed during the waterboarding session because it's still classified, yet he wants us to believe that waterboarding KSM has been effective in preventing further attacks. :roll:

Are you saying that it didn't take coercive interrorgation to get KSM to talk? I assume nothing it is established fact that KSM was begging to talk and spilled his guts after 2 minutes of waterboarding, which proves that contrary to your assertions waterboarding is an effective method of extracting information.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yet nowhere in that report does it mention how the information was gained. You don't even know what information he revealed after 2 minutes of waterboarding. For all you know he begged to confess that he was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll.

Do you know what breaking a suspect means?

You defend waterboarding by speculating about things you admit you know nothing about. Nice.

I defend waterboarding on the basis that it's public record that KSM broke in less than 2 minutes under waterboarding which proves that it is an effective method of extracting information.

 

[Binary_Digit]

It is well known that the information obtained from KSM was extracted through the use of waterboarding.

Everything he knew the interrogator stated that after 2 minutes of waterboarding KSM was begging to talk.

Do you have a link to support that or are we to just take your word for it? Please provide a link that says KSM revealed credible information as a direct result of being waterboarded.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Do you know what breaking a suspect means?

Does this involve rap music?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Do you have a link to support that or are we to just take your word for it? Please provide a link that says KSM revealed credible information as a direct result of being waterboarded.

Moral and legal aspects aside, conventional wisdom is that torture simply isn’t practical: that someone who is being tortured will say anything to make the torture stop, and that information gleaned through torture is therefore not reliable. Some former military and intelligence officers say, however, that physically aggressive interrogation techniques that some human-rights groups consider torture can be effective in the short term. When asked for specifics, the technique they cite is “waterboarding,” in which water is poured over a subject’s face to create the sensation of drowning.
Consider Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the 39-year-old former Al Qaeda operative who was the Sept. 11 mastermind and bearer of many Al Qaeda secrets. If anyone had a motive for remaining silent, it was the man known to terrorism investigators as “KSM.” But not long after his capture in Pakistan, in March 2003, KSM began to talk. He ultimately had so much to say that more than 100 footnoted references to the CIA’s interrogations of KSM are contained in the final report of the commission that investigated Sept. 11. Not that everything KSM said was believable. But much of his information checked out in separate questioning of other captured Al Qaeda figures.
What made KSM decide to talk? The answer may be waterboarding, to which KSM was subjected on at least one occasion, according to various accounts. Intelligence operatives say that while waterboarding can break through a suspect’s initial resistance, it isn’t effective for long-term interrogation. Once a suspect begins to communicate, however, an interrogation specialist can put into action a wide range of far more subtle techniques, which include playing to a subject’s ego or pretending to be his friend.
It could not be learned exactly when KSM was waterboarded or whether the technique was used more than once. But only 12 days after being captured in Pakistan, on March 1, 2003, KSM made his first reported major revelation.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2005/12/torturing_khalid_shaikh_mohammed_worked/

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[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Does this involve rap music?

Actually yes it does some detainees have been placed in a cold room and forced to listen to Eminem to keep them awake.

 

[Binary_Digit]

What made KSM decide to talk? The answer may be waterboarding

...

It could not be learned exactly when KSM was waterboarded or whether the technique was used more than once. But only 12 days after being captured in Pakistan, on March 1, 2003, KSM made his first reported major revelation.

I ask for specific examples of what KSM revealed to the 9/11 Commission as a direct result of waterboarding, and you give me a Chicago Tribune reporter speculating on a timeline that's not even complete. Give me a ****ing break. You have no more evidence than I would by claiming that the sign pointing to Mecca was what made him give in.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Actually yes it does some detainees have been placed in a cold room and forced to listen to Eminem to keep them awake.

It seems so empty without me...

or, in your case,

I think my dad's crazy!

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

It seems so empty without me...

or, in your case,

I think my dad's crazy!

There's no mountain I can't climb, there's no tower too high
No plane that I can't learn how to fly
What do I gotta do to get through to you
to show you there ain't nothin I can't take this chainsaw to?
{Hailie: *VROOM* ****in brains, brawn and brass balls
I cut 'em off, and got 'em pickled and bronzed in a glass jar
inside of a hall with my framed autographed sunglasses
with Elton John's name, on my drag wall
I'm out the closet, I've been lyin my *** off
All this time me and Dre been ****in with hats off
(Suck it Marshall!) So tell Laura and her husband to back off
'fore I push this mother****in button and blast off
and launch one at these Russians and that's all {*boom*
Blow every ****in thing except Afghanistan on the map off
When will it stop? When will I knock the crap off?
{*knocking* Hailie, tell 'em baby - (My dad's lost it!)

 

[Binary_Digit]

So Tot, will you admit your waterboarding case looks like swiss cheese, or will you just run off to another thread and continue to lie?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

So Tot, will you admit your waterboarding case looks like swiss cheese, or will you just run off to another thread and continue to lie?

WTF are you talking about I provided you with the link you requested, the fact of the matter is that waterboarding works end of story.

 

[jfuh]

And the Army training manual is the law now?

For the military absolutely. ARe you denying this? Oh right of course you are, which is why you have cut and run from answering the simple yest or no question of "Is torture illegal for the armed forces?"

Are you honestly comparing that to waterboarding?

Absolutely. Torture is torture, doesn't matter how or what is involved, the results are the same as were the intentions. Would it be acceptable to you if waterboarding was administered to our troops?

GB uses tactics of survelience which are not allowed in the U.S..

Doesn't matter, they didn't break the law, Bush did. Do you actually think that you're example credits your argument?

What he meant was that OBL is pretty much just a figure head now his operational capablities have been severely hurt by GWB's policies.

I don't need you to interrpret to me what his words mean.
Now if OBL is irrelevent in operational capabilities, why is this administration bringing up OBL now right before elections? Oh right, because all OBL matters is for elections to the GOP. Has nothing to do with the fact that OBL was the mastermind behind 9/11.

Yep and we did check out all of those and had OBL pinned down in Tora Bora but we relied on the Pakistanis to cut off his escape route which was a mistake.

Quite a flipflop from your statment before. You are lieing
Question, when we had OBL pinned down in Tora Bora, where was KSM again? Oh right, we didn't capture KSM until after OBL escaped from Tora Bora. OBL was pinned down in then escaped from Tora Bora in late December of 2001, KSM wasn't captured until March of 2003.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/21/attack/main537258.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/liveonline/03/special/world/sp_world_hoffman030303.htm

Say there is an immediate plan in the works for an IED bombing and we capture one of the plotters and time is of the essence do you really think the detainee is going to talk without coercive measures?

ahh the ticking time bomb scenario, some one has been watching too much 24, tell me, how often does Jack Bowers get it right with his interrogation techniques? IT doesn't work. If someone is setting off a bomb to kill and the bomb is going to go off "very soon" the bomber is not going to give a rats *** what is thrown at him/her. Most likely he's going to send the officials on a wild goose chase with them ending up with nothing but body bags. But hey look at this, GB got it right and avoided liquid bombs on planes with what? Good old fashioned police work.

It proves that waterboarding is effective at extracting information.

So I ask you about how it keeps our soldiers safe and you spin with it prooving waterboarding is effective? Notice that my premise already assumes that info was collected from waterboarding?

It is well known that the information obtained from KSM was extracted through the use of waterboarding.

Source? Proof? Mind you, Israel has stated that torture doesn't work, and they are quite good on torturing terrorists.

Everything he knew the interrogator stated that after 2 minutes of waterboarding KSM was begging to talk.

Begging to talk, but about what? Face it tot, you have nothing that states he gave any credible intel.