Are you party to the Constitution?[W:224]

[KokomoJojo]

Who would ever think a question like that could ever come up?

I want to know how anyone can make or devise a contract and one day throw it on your desk and tell you that you are subject to it or its contents and demand that you obey at gun point or jail?

Does ibm have the authority to legislate how microsoft will run its business, or punish any of microsofts employees when they are disobey either ibm or microsofts rules?

Does a legislature have the authority to tell you how to run your affairs?

Are you? Party to "any" contract you had no part in? If so how?

What if you have your own sprinkler system and you go into the county and tell them hey pull the fire department off your taxes. What do you think will happen?

Anyone ever thought of that?

How can someone elses contract apply to you?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

Yes. Everyone, everywhere, is born into a society that has laws, rules, customs and expectations. Our constitution, and the laws that were enacted under it, apply to those within our borders - the bottom line is love it, leave it or seek to get things changed.

 

[Summerwind]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

Who would ever think a question like that could ever come up?

I want to know how anyone can make or devise a contract and one day throw it on your desk and tell you that you are subject to it or its contents and demand that you obey at gun point or jail?

Does ibm have the authority to legislate how microsoft will run its business, or punish any of microsofts employees when they are disobey either ibm or microsofts rules?

Does a legislature have the authority to tell you how to run your affairs?

Are you? Party to "any" contract you had no part in? If so how?

What if you have your own sprinkler system and you go into the county and tell them hey pull the fire department off your taxes. What do you think will happen?

Anyone ever thought of that?

How can someone elses contract apply to you?

Seems to me you need to educate yourself as to how constitutions are created and put into practice. It's not done in secret and the sprung onto a society at gunpoint as you try to present.

 

[reinoe]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

Who would ever think a question like that could ever come up?

I want to know how anyone can make or devise a contract and one day throw it on your desk and tell you that you are subject to it or its contents and demand that you obey at gun point or jail?

Does ibm have the authority to legislate how microsoft will run its business, or punish any of microsofts employees when they are disobey either ibm or microsofts rules?

Does a legislature have the authority to tell you how to run your affairs?

Are you? Party to "any" contract you had no part in? If so how?

What if you have your own sprinkler system and you go into the county and tell them hey pull the fire department off your taxes. What do you think will happen?

Anyone ever thought of that?

How can someone elses contract apply to you?

You're more than welcome to remove yourself from "The Social Contract". Just remove yourself from society. Simple.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

You're more than welcome to remove yourself from "The Social Contract". Just remove yourself from society. Simple.

yes that is a grossly oversimplified response. What social contract? Did you sign a social contract? If so which one did you sign?

 

[Summerwind]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

yes that is a grossly oversimplified response. What social contract? Did you sign a social contract? If so which one did you sign?

You have an erroneous and over simplified OP, what did you expect?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

humans are social creatures and being a part of society is simply natural to our nature. being party to a social contract is simply part of our nature and evolutionary heritage.

thus it is normal and the neutral standard really is being party to such a contract and thus assent isn't necessary as well as an unrealistic expectation.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

Yes. Everyone, everywhere, is born into a society that has laws, rules, customs and expectations. Our constitution, and the laws that were enacted under it, apply to those within our borders - the bottom line is love it, leave it or seek to get things changed.

That a nice response however you did not answer the question.

Where is the legitimate authority to claim someone is subject to your social beliefs? I want to explore where this legitimate authority comes from. Simply standing on a soap box and claiming hey we got a piece of paper says you gotta be ruled by us doesnt really cut it does it?

If your neighbor walked up to you and told you that you cant bring water into your house because those are the social rules you mean to tell me you would simply say oh ok cool?

or would you ask where they got the authority to tell you that you could not bring water into your house?

 

[Henrin]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

As I have said before, a contract, by definition, is an agreement, and if there is no agreement between two people there was never a contract between them established. This idea that people have that they can hold you to a contract simply because you were born in a certain land, or that you desire to live in a land, is oppressive by its very nature. It assumes that there is a master above your own person that you must answer to, and that master is whatever ruling body of persons already established to rule over the lands you have ventured into.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

You have an erroneous and over simplified OP, what did you expect?

not at all. Its fundamental and asks a very fundamental question. Where does this authority come from? How can you be held accountable for a political contract your great great grandad made that you were not privy to?

 

[joG]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

Who would ever think a question like....

Does a legislature have the authority to tell you how to run your affairs?
....

I thought that was what the constitution was supposed to protect us against.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

humans are social creatures and being a part of society is simply natural to our nature. being party to a social contract is simply part of our nature and evolutionary heritage.

thus it is normal and the neutral standard really is being party to such a contract and thus assent isn't necessary as well as an unrealistic expectation.

ok but in your scenario arent you setting up a situation and presuming the person would have had to already previously agreed to be "part of a society"?

Granted people of similar mindsets may gravitate toward one another and form informal groups that share "certain" sameness however once again that is distinguished by the version you seem to be speaking of which is to form a formal mob by some sort of contract that everyone within said mob or said boundaries will agree to abide by or be punished.

If you are a land owner and you are renting to some tenant then for sure you would have the legitimate authority by virtue of being the owner to make certain rules for your tenants.

Are we tenants maybe? Where does this seemingly presumed authority that everyone within a prescribed circle on the map must obey and accept services at the end of a barrel of a gun come from?

So is being ruled and having decisions made for you also part of our nature? Is that not the difference between a formal social contract and an informal social group? Once this gets as far as legal land then do we not have rules that govern what a legitimate contract is and do these social contracts fall under these legal rules or something else?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

ok but in your scenario arent you setting up a situation where the person would have hat to previously agree to be "part of a society"?

I never agreed to be born, but I was. I never agreed to have the genetic problems I was born with, but I am. I never agreed to who my parents should be, but that's who they are. All those things are a natural condition, just like being born into a society with societal rules. What if I choose to breathe methane instead of oxygen and have a different metabolism? agreement isn't necessary.

Granted people of similar mindsets may gravitate toward one another and form informal groups that share "certain" sameness however once again that is distinguished by the version you seem to be speaking of which is to form a formal mob by contract with some sort of contract that everyone within said mob or said boundaries will agree to abide by or be punished.

If you are a land owner and you are renting to some tenant then for sure you would have the legitimate authority by virtue of being the owner to make certain rules for your tenants.

Are we tenants maybe? Where does this seemingly presumed authority that everyone within a prescribed circle on the map must obey and accept services at the end of a barrel of a gun come from?

So is being ruled and having decisions made for you also part of our nature? Is that not the difference between a formal social contract and an informal social group? Once this gets as far as legal land then do we not have rules that govern what a legitimate contract is and do these social contracts fall under these legal rules or something else?

yes, being ruled is part of our nature. Humans naturally congregate into hierarchies, its instinctual. In fact a lot of people secretly like it because it makes them feel secure and gives them a sense of identity. This isn't automatically a bad thing, as humanity needs to have ways to work together or else we would never have a society in the first place and would have probably died out as a species. Which in turn allows you to ask philosophical what if questions versus looking at imperfect reality and accepting it for what it is. It helped ensure our survival and prosperity. If we had mindsets like snakes, than yeah, we would probably need a contract for even the most basic semblances of a society.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

I never agreed to be born, but I was. I never agreed to have the genetic problems I was born with, but I am. I never agreed to who my parents should be, but that's who they are. All those things are a natural condition, just like being born into a society with societal rules. What if I choose to breathe methane instead of oxygen and have a different metabolism? agreement isn't necessary.

A ruling body is unnatural, so comparing it to natural occurrence as if it is one is of course illogical.

 

[Master PO]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

the constitution of the u.s. gives the federal government [congress] no general authority over the american people, only if a citizen violates a delegated power of congress or treason, can the federal government punish a citizen.

I do CHALLENGE anyone to show me where in the constitution by article, section where the delegated powers of government, concern the life's' liberty and property of the people.

please!..... do not come back with a "yes they do", or "your wrong" response........please show the article and section.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

A ruling body is unnatural, so comparing it to natural occurrence as if it is one is of course illogical.

it is absolutely natural. As I pointed out, humans are instinctively drawn to societies and hierarchies. It doesn't fit well with your philosophy, but oh well, philosophies are made to be updated as new information comes when society increases in knowledge (which is also a natural human drive)

 

[Henrin]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

it is absolutely natural. As I pointed out, humans are instinctively drawn to societies and hierarchies. It doesn't fit well with your philosophy, but oh well, philosophies are made to be updated as new information comes when society increases in knowledge (which is also a natural human drive)

You make the false assumption that what you propose is a new idea, or something that my philosophy didn't take into account, but I assure you that you are wrong on both accounts. It is entirely natural that people form agreements with others for their protection, that much is true, but it's entirely unnatural and without a doubt unjust that people govern the lives of others as some sort of default position.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

I never agreed to be born, but I was. I never agreed to have the genetic problems I was born with, but I am. I never agreed to who my parents should be, but that's who they are. All those things are a natural condition, just like being born into a society with societal rules. What if I choose to breathe methane instead of oxygen and have a different metabolism? agreement isn't necessary.

yes, being ruled is part of our nature. Humans naturally congregate into hierarchies, its instinctual. In fact a lot of people secretly like it because it makes them feel secure and gives them a sense of identity. This isn't automatically a bad thing, as humanity needs to have ways to work together or else we would never have a society in the first place and would have probably died out as a species. It helped ensure our survival and prosperity. If we had mindsets like snakes, than yeah, we would probably need a contract for even the most basic semblances of a society.

So how do you make the connection between what is generally considered acts of God (that which is completely out of "your" control) to make an apparent leap over to an act of mob [which presumes you are an agreeing member] which is not a natural process but contrived or devised process?

That is what I am trying to find out. That presumed connection. How does it manifest itself and where is its substantial legitimacy?


Being ruled or being advised is part of our nature? I would buy into being advised, but who would agree to what amounts to a form of voluntary slavery and being forced into obeying someone elses religion?

Maybe in cave man days to insure the survival of a tribe, but again we are talking about legitimate authority that it appears you would have us take a position that these "legal" social liabilities should just be accepted as a matter of "presumption" rather than law. Isnt that a contradiction in terms?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

You make the false assumption that what you propose is a new idea, or something that my philosophy didn't take into account, but I assure you that I did. It is entirely natural that people form agreements with others for their protection, that much is true, but it's entirely unnatural that people govern the lives of others as some sort of default position.

no, hierarchy is natural. (as is the use of force, people are born with aggression and aggressive instincts)

so yes, your philosophy needs updating.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

yes that is a grossly oversimplified response. What social contract? Did you sign a social contract? If so which one did you sign?

It is the perfect response. Once you realize the rules of the game, you can withdraw from the game any day you want to . There is no Berlin Wall or its equal forcing you here and the line to get in is a whole lot longer than the one to get out. The people who helped begin this country - the Pilgrims - had the strength of their convictions to leave a society they objected to. If ones convictions are strong - they should do the same.

Sadly, there are far too many on the far right who want to complain... want to bitch .... want to moan and groan .... grouse and scream and rant and rave but at the end of the day their sorry ass is in the same country that it was yesterday.

Either move or get off the pot of put a cork in it. But I am tired of hearing your whining.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

the constitution of the u.s. gives the federal government [congress] no general authority over the american people, only if a citizen violates a delegated power of congress or treason, can the federal government punish a citizen.

I do CHALLENGE anyone to show me where in the constitution by article, section where the delegated powers of government, concern the life's' liberty and property of the people.

please!..... do not come back with a "yes they do", or "your wrong" response........please show the article and section.

What you really mean is what you always mean........ show me where the great god Madison said it.

You have gone down that same tired road so many times that its now a very flat joke that no longer is even interesting.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

So how do you make the connection between what is generally considered acts of God (that which is completely out of "your" control) to make an apparent leap over to an act of mob [which presumes you are an agreeing member] which is not a natural process but contrived or devised process?

That is what I am trying to find out. That presumed connection. How does it manifest itself and where is its substantial legitimacy?


Being ruled or being advised is part of our nature? I would buy into being advised, but who would agree to what amounts to a form of voluntary slavery and being forced into obeying someone elses religion?

Maybe in cave man days to insure the survival of a tribe, but again we are talking about legitimate authority that it appears you would have us take a position that these "legal" social liabilities should just be accepted as a matter of "presumption" rather than law. Isnt that a contradiction in terms?

Why be concerned with legitimacy? human nature is going to change because of something Locke or some other philosopher said "this is what I think" and that he was subject to limited human understanding like all of us are. human nature and human instinct are their own force and means outside of intellectual considerations and are certainly not subject to them. To think otherwise is to never construct a successful social theory and invite disaster, false expectations, and disappointment. Evolution doesn't care what you think, its going to do what it does anyway.

The best we can do is design systems that turn our flaws into advantages, regulated capitalism is a highly successful piece of social engineering for example. not to say it isn't without its flaws though, it has fewer flaws I can find than previous systems and future systems are probably going to have to involve an advanced AI of some type.

also slavery is such an overused term these days, it has become a stand in for "having to obey a rule I don't like" in that context we are all slaves, I would prefer not to have to use cross walks when the road is clear for example. Honestly, I think the type of absolute moral legitimacy you seek never possibly can exist, how can it when people didn't even agree to be born or to live any number of innumerable conditions humans are forced to endure while being alive. being a part of society is simply one of those conditions.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

no, hierarchy is natural.

so yes, your philosophy needs updating.

I can't quite figure out how that provides any pressure to my statement or challenges it in any sort of way. It doesn't seem to challenge my idea of voluntary agreement nor does it seemingly support you idea of involuntary agreement. It doesn't provide a justification to forcing others under the command of others, but simply states it's history and assumes, quite stupidly, that this is a natural occurrence.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

also slavery is such an overused term these days, it has become a stand in for "having to obey a rule I don't like" in that context we are all slaves, I would prefer not to have to use cross walks when the road is clear for example. Honestly, I think the type of absolute moral legitimacy you seek never possibly can exist, how can it when people didn't even agree to be born or to live any number of innumerable conditions humans are forced to endure while being alive. being a part of society is simply one of those conditions.

Being born and living through the hardships of life is a very different matter than being under the command of your fellow man.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Re: Are you party to the Constitution?

I can't quite figure out how that provides any pressure to my statement or challenges it in any sort of way. It doesn't seem to challenge my idea of voluntary agreement nor does it seemingly support you idea of involuntary agreement. It doesn't provide a justification to forcing others under the command of others, but simply states it's history and assumes, quite stupidly, that this is a natural occurrence.

because your expectations of humanity are unrealistic and frankly never going to happen. you act all pissed off on this forum all the time because you have these expectations. it makes me pity you.