Are "undocumented immigrants" persons?

[Helix]

if we don't count them this time, that will be a change.

Supreme Court to decide whether census can exclude undocumented immigrants

The court set the case for argument on Nov. 30. If Judge Amy Coney Barrett is confirmed by then, she could participate in the case.

www.nbcnews.com

of course, with a right wing court, this is a real possibility.

 

[Fishking]

Monday, 30th November, the case Trump v. New York will be argued before the Supreme Court.

The Court's decision in the case may or may not affect the 2020 elections. The Trump administration will be arguing that "undocumented immigrants" (illegal aliens) should not be considered "persons" for the purpose of congressional representation numbers. Trump has said, on more than one occasion that some states are over-represented in Congress due to the number of illegals in those states.

The 14th Amendment, Section 2 would appear to contradict Trump while supporting the idea that all humans/persons should be counted during the national census that takes place every 10 years. Although the Amendment does state that "Indians not taxed" were not to be counted. Native Americans did not become American citizens until the passage of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924, even after the passage of that Act some states refused to call Indians "citizens' if they lived on a designated reservation, until 1957.

They are persons in the common parlance of term but in the legal context for representation they should not. They are representatives of the US citizenry, not of illegal immigrants. The part where it talks about non-taxed Native Americans gives plenty of standing not count them as they work under the table.

Yes, yes...I know some get fake SS numbers and pay some taxes but they don't pay them all and even their payments are done via fraud.

 

[Spakian]

If your parents filled out an N-400 to get an I-551 ("green card"), they're going to be waiting literally forever. An N-400 is the form that begins the process of naturalization after having been a permanent resident and satisfying residency requirements. I'm curious to know what the basis for their immigration to the US would be. You indicate you're in Minnesota (SKOL!), which suggests you're probably a US citizen, and could therefore petition for your parents to immigrate with an IR5 visa, which is not subject to annual caps like the F1-F4 family preference visas. They could get their visas approved in maybe a year if you went that route.

Nobody "gets citizenship faster" based on their country of origin. Certain immigrants have residency requirements that are shorter than others, but that is based wholly on the type of visa they used to enter the country, not their nationality.

Yeah I would agree with some aspects. I do mean that a lot of Asian countries have long waiting lines, and it would be easier to apply.

I am not a US citizen, but I see your point on how one should go, and thanks for that.

 

[Rich2018]

They are persons in the common parlance of term but in the legal context for representation they should not. They are representatives of the US citizenry, not of illegal immigrants. The part where it talks about non-taxed Native Americans gives plenty of standing not count them as they work under the table.

Yes, yes...I know some get fake SS numbers and pay some taxes but they don't pay them all and even their payments are done via fraud.

But the level of state funding is directly linked the representation

Do you want to break that link ?

 

[Fishking]

But the level of state funding is directly linked the representation

Do you want to break that link ?

*representation of citizens

We shouldn't be bankrolling illegal activity. We can't even pay for our own bills, let alone picking up more.

 

[rickc]

The difference between the left and right on our illegal immigrants

The right doesn't want to give them legal status. Makes their workers much easier to control.

Democrats want to treat them as human beings with all the rights that come with that.

 

[Rich2018]

*representation of citizens

We shouldn't be bankrolling illegal activity. We can't even pay for our own bills, let alone picking up more.

So a state has to find 100% of all the resources required to upkeep its infrastructure ?

 

[GummyVitamins]

Ideally the census should count everybody, in practice it's hard to see why people would return census information listing illegals

So representation/federal funds should reflect how many PEOPLE live in a state.

The census will count everyone. It will also ask if they are a citizen. The question is whether or not illegal immigrants should count towards Congressional appropriation for legislative seats.

However the resources a state has - transport infrastructure, hospitals etc are used by both legal and illegal residents

Funding is something entirely different than the number of seats in the House a state would receive.

So representation/federal funds should reflect how many PEOPLE live in a state.

Or states who do not want to pay for illegal immigrants could always comply with illegal immigration enforcement. Why should I have to pay extra/lose representation because a city/state decides they want to encourage illegal immigrants to shelter there while they shield them from law enforcement?

 

[GummyVitamins]

Democrats: There was illegal foreign interference in the 2016 that must be stopped.

Also Democrats: We need illegal foreign interference to maintain our party representation in Congress.

 

[bongsaway]

Not Indians who are not taxed.

You want illegal immigrants treated as full citizens, not just as a person.

What happened to the sanctity of life? No human is illegal.

 

[GummyVitamins]

What happened to the sanctity of life? No human is illegal.

Human's aren't "illegal," but their immigration status is. What a ridiculous statement.

 

[trouble13]

Ideally the census should count everybody, in practice it's hard to see why people would return census information listing illegals

However the resources a state has - transport infrastructure, hospitals etc are used by both legal and illegal residents

So representation/federal funds should reflect how many PEOPLE live in a state.

You are conflating two separate issues.
Congressional districts are allotted funding based on needs not population. Congressional representation is based on population not needs.

 

[Fishking]

So a state has to find 100% of all the resources required to upkeep its infrastructure ?

Ideally, they would bank roll the near full majority of their own infrastructure, with the federal government involvement and tax burden significantly reduced. However, your statement above doesn't make sense unless you're saying that there is a state somewhere that is composed of 100% illegal immigrants.

 

[Rich2018]

The census will count everyone. It will also ask if they are a citizen. The question is whether or not illegal immigrants should count towards Congressional appropriation for legislative seats.

I am reminded of the US Immigration questionnaire, non-citizens must fill in upon arrival to the USA by plane. They're handed out as the plane approaches the USA.
I've only ever filled them out on airplanes but assume land borders are the same or very similar

One of the questions asks if you're coming to the USA to overthrow the government. Has anyone in their right mind answered "Yes"

Ditto the census. Would anyone in their right mind include illegal aliens ?

Funding is something entirely different than the number of seats in the House a state would receive.

"Federal funds, grants and support to states, counties and communities are based on population totals and breakdowns by sex, age, race and other factors. Your community benefits the most when the census counts everyone. When you respond to the census, you help your community gets its fair share of the more than $675 billion per year in federal funds spent on schools, hospitals, roads, public works and other vital programs. "

Why We Conduct the Decennial Census of Population and Housing

The information the census collects helps to determine how more than $400 billion dollars of federal funding each year is spent on infrastructure and services.

www.census.gov

Or states who do not want to pay for illegal immigrants could always comply with illegal immigration enforcement. Why should I have to pay extra/lose representation because a city/state decides they want to encourage illegal immigrants to shelter there while they shield them from law enforcement?

Remind me which states don't comply with "illegal immigration enforcement" ?
Which states/cities "encourage illegal immigrants to shelter there while they shield them from law enforcement" ?

Please specify those states and give evidence to support you unsubstantiated claims.

 

[Rich2018]

Ideally, they would bank roll the near full majority of their own infrastructure, with the federal government involvement and tax burden significantly reduced. However, your statement above doesn't make sense unless you're saying that there is a state somewhere that is composed of 100% illegal immigrants.

Why would it have to be 100% ?

And are you not aware that "blue" states subsidize the "red" states ?

 

[Rich2018]

You are conflating two separate issues.
Congressional districts are allotted funding based on needs not population. Congressional representation is based on population not needs.

"Federal funds, grants and support to states, counties and communities are based on population totals and breakdowns by sex, age, race and other factors. Your community benefits the most when the census counts everyone. When you respond to the census, you help your community gets its fair share of the more than $675 billion per year in federal funds spent on schools, hospitals, roads, public works and other vital programs. "

Why We Conduct the Decennial Census of Population and Housing

The information the census collects helps to determine how more than $400 billion dollars of federal funding each year is spent on infrastructure and services.

www.census.gov

 

[GummyVitamins]

I am reminded of the US Immigration questionnaire, non-citizens must fill in upon arrival to the USA by plane. They're handed out as the plane approaches the USA.
I've only ever filled them out on airplanes but assume land borders are the same or very similar

One of the questions asks if you're coming to the USA to overthrow the government. Has anyone in their right mind answered "Yes"

Ditto the census. Would anyone in their right mind include illegal aliens ?

Then you have no problem with the question being asked. Makes sense.

Please specify those states and give evidence to support you unsubstantiated claims.

California
Colorado
Connecticut
Illinois
Massachusetts
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
Oregon
Vermont
Washington

You can do your own research as to why they choose to be sanctuary states.

 

[trouble13]

"Federal funds, grants and support to states, counties and communities are based on population totals and breakdowns by sex, age, race and other factors. Your community benefits the most when the census counts everyone. When you respond to the census, you help your community gets its fair share of the more than $675 billion per year in federal funds spent on schools, hospitals, roads, public works and other vital programs. "

Why We Conduct the Decennial Census of Population and Housing

The information the census collects helps to determine how more than $400 billion dollars of federal funding each year is spent on infrastructure and services.

www.census.gov

Maybe I am misunderstanding something?
Are they not counting everyone?
I am under the impression they want to differentiate between citizens and noncitizens for congressional representation.
Congressmen are elected by citizens not non-citizens.

 

[Rich2018]

Then you have no problem with the question being asked. Makes sense.

???

Because it will be in (some) people's interests to answer it falsely ?

Please explain

California
Colorado
Connecticut
Illinois
Massachusetts
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
Oregon
Vermont
Washington

You can do your own research as to why they choose to be sanctuary states.

I said give evidence - it is up to YOU to back up a claim. I'm not doing your homework for you

Just take one state from your bogus list; please provide evidence that it doesn't comply with "illegal immigration enforcement" ?
Please provide evidence that it "encourages illegal immigrants to shelter there while they shield them from law enforcement" ?

You sound like a parochial Republican with nothing but slander
You resemble Trump's lawyers claiming fraudulent voting and unable to substantiate it in court in the slightest when challenged by one of the many judges who've had to misfortune to hear one of those fraudulent lawsuits.

 

[Rich2018]

Maybe I am misunderstanding something?
Are they not counting everyone?
I am under the impression they want to differentiate between citizens and noncitizens for congressional representation.
Congressmen are elected by citizens not non-citizens.

The apportionment of federal funding is decided by the same population figures that determine congressional representation - did you not read the link ?

 

[trouble13]

The apportionment of federal funding is decided by the same population figures that determine congressional representation - did you not read the link ?

That is precisely what the debate is about. In theory you could have an entire district without a single citizen living in it. Who should elect that districts congressman under those circumstances?

 

[Grand Mal]

Not Indians who are not taxed.

You want illegal immigrants treated as full citizens, not just as a person.

Indians pay taxes. How else could the Indian government operate?

 

[Fishking]

Why would it have to be 100% ?

That was the premise of the conversation. Otherwise your comment make no sense. We're talking about representation of citizens.

 

[Rhakron90]

Monday, 30th November, the case Trump v. New York will be argued before the Supreme Court.

The Court's decision in the case may or may not affect the 2020 elections. The Trump administration will be arguing that "undocumented immigrants" (illegal aliens) should not be considered "persons" for the purpose of congressional representation numbers. Trump has said, on more than one occasion that some states are over-represented in Congress due to the number of illegals in those states.



The 14th Amendment, Section 2 would appear to contradict Trump while supporting the idea that all humans/persons should be counted during the national census that takes place every 10 years. Although the Amendment does state that "Indians not taxed" were not to be counted. Native Americans did not become American citizens until the passage of the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924, even after the passage of that Act some states refused to call Indians "citizens' if they lived on a designated reservation, until 1957.

Not for voting purposes, no. That should be reserved for citizens, or at least legal permanent residents, alone.

Do you really not see the issue with factoring people who shouldn't even be here in the first place into our electoral process?

 

[GummyVitamins]

???

Because it will be in (some) people's interests to answer it falsely ?

Please explain

If people will just deny being an illegal immigrant, as you suggested, why does it hurt being asked one way or the other?

I said give evidence - it is up to YOU to back up a claim. I'm not doing your homework for you

Just take one state from your bogus list; please provide evidence that it doesn't comply with "illegal immigration enforcement" ?
Please provide evidence that it "encourages illegal immigrants to shelter there while they shield them from law enforcement" ?

This is common knowledge, you know it's common knowledge. Let's not be obtuse.

You sound like a parochial Republican with nothing but slander
You resemble Trump's lawyers claiming fraudulent voting and unable to substantiate it in court in the slightest when challenged by one of the many judges who've had to misfortune to hear one of those fraudulent lawsuits.

I'm ok with your opinion of me based on the lack of intelligence you've shown thus far. I take it as a win.