Are they Pro-life Christians or just Pro-birth Christians?

[Gordy327]

There was and still is an unreasoned fear factor that Dobbs made abortion illegal. It's a great fund raiser for the pro slaughter crowd

Dobbs did no such thing. Abortion is still legal in most states.

You have made it clear you don't believe in the right to life for human beings except under arbitrary conditions.

There is no "right to life" enumerated and the unborn do not have rights. That's just legal fact, not mere belief.

It is the pro slaughter faction that still refuses to acknowledge the brutality of their position.

That is irrelevant and emotionalistic. The pro-life side still cannot provide any rational or legal basis to restrict abortion in the least. It seems all you/they have to go on is mere feelings.

 

[Lursa]

Wrong again. I've not asked anyone what they think abortion law should be. That's a demand you're making, not me.

What timid posting...the lengths you go to, to avoid actual discussion and not commit to your positions...sad. You spend all your time in self-righteous objections but you're not fooling anyone.

You made this statement early on:

The abortion debate is not about privacy. It's not about social welfare programs. It's not about religion. It's about coming to agreement on what is and what is not a working defintion of human life (with basic human rights). Anything else is noise.

And once challenged to discuss it, you ran like your tail was on fire, into the semantic forest to hide. You are literally offended that people have tried to debate that "agreement."

 

[Bodi]

It does seem the left will argue any facet of the abortion debate other than the actual point.

For example, I don't know you. I also think it would be wrong for someone to end your life, yet that concern is in no way less credible because I feel absolutely no obligation to feed, clothe, or house you.

The abortion debate is not about privacy. It's not about social welfare programs. It's not about religion. It's about coming to agreement on what is and what is not a working defintion of human life (with basic human rights). Anything else is noise.

There will never be an agreement that a pre-viability fetus is a person with rights that negate a born person's (woman') right to bodily autonomy.



.

 

[Lursa]

How thoughtful of you. Pro life advocactes soldiered on for more than 50 years against reducing the unborn to subhuman status.

Dobbs returned jurisdiction over abortion regulation to the states meaning there is no Constitutional right to slaughter the unborn.

The Dobbs decision reduced the slaughter of unborn children so yes, it is acceptable in that sense.

No, Dobbs did not. Abortions started to rise again after Dobbs, after more than a decade of steadily dropping. You might want to become better informed on an issue before you make such statements.




It's RvW that was working to reduce abortions, not Dobbs.

There is still work to be done at the state level convincing state legislatures to protect unborn children and at the Federal level reminding Congress and the President it's good to be pro life.

Also not the actual result of Dobbs. Since Dobbs, all but one state that's voted on it has voted against stricter abortion measures or overturned those the state tried to impose.

Dobbs enables states to allow women/their doctors to kill their unborn with no due process...and almost every state does, to some extent.

But yes...that is the way it's supposed to work. The majority of Americans support elective (non-medical) abortion and they intend to ensure it.

Are you unhappy with the prospect of millions of children being born instead of slaughtered?

I'm only unhappy that women dont have the choice of reproductive care that they need locally. That's what "pro-choice" means. Now they have to face greater health consequences and danger to travel outside their state.

 

[NatMorton]

There will never be an agreement that a pre-viability fetus is a person with rights that negate a born person's (woman') right to bodily autonomy.

I wouldn't expect there to be.

 

[AZRWinger]

No, Dobbs did not. Abortions started to rise again after Dobbs, after more than a decade of steadily dropping. You might want to become better informed on an issue before you make such statements.


View attachment 67562210

It's RvW that was working to reduce abortions, not Dobbs.



Also not the actual result of Dobbs. Since Dobbs, all but one state that's voted on it has voted against stricter abortion measures or overturned those the state tried to impose.

Dobbs enables states to allow women/their doctors to kill their unborn with no due process...and almost every state does, to some extent.

Slaughtering the unborn with no ptetense of due process is what pro abortion zealots did before Dobbs and continue to do in states where legal.

But yes...that is the way it's supposed to work. The majority of Americans support elective (non-medical) abortion and they intend to ensure it.

As I wrote before there is still work to be done. Indeed, the wau it's supposed to work is via the legislative processes, not judicial fiat.

I'm only unhappy that women dont have the choice of reproductive care that they need locally. That's what "pro-choice" means. Now they have to face greater health consequences and danger to travel outside their state.

Thanks fot reconfirming the complete disregard for himan life in the form of unborn children.

 

[Lursa]

Slaughtering the unborn with no ptetense of due process is what pro abortion zealots did before Dobbs and continue to do in states where legal.

Now you're getting it. Once you can learn to manage your feelings better, you can then learn to realize that "pro-choice" supporters are glad that women may make the choice they need to for their reproductive care, safely, even if they have to go to another state...women can still get the care they need.

As I wrote before there is still work to be done. Indeed, the wau it's supposed to work is via the legislative processes, not judicial fiat.

If it's a state's rights issue...what do you foresee? What do you have in mind?

Thanks fot reconfirming the complete disregard for himan life in the form of unborn children.

I leave that "regard" up to the woman it's inside. I invest nothing in the unborn inside strangers...that's up to that woman, based on her needs and those of her family. I find it disturbing that many pro-life people fantasize little "baybees" inside women they dont even know but whatever floats your boat.

I value the unborn, but I value all born people more.

 

[AZRWinger]

Dobbs did no such thing. Abortion is still legal in most states.

I was writing about the fear ginnef up by Democrat propaganda.

There is no "right to life" enumerated and the unborn do not have rights. That's just legal fact, not mere belief.

If there is no right to life then all the other rights in the Constitution are meaningless.

That is irrelevant and emotionalistic. The pro-life side still cannot provide any rational or legal basis to restrict abortion in the least. It seems all you/they have to go on is mere feelings.

The pro abortion zealots insist on degrading the unborn into subhuman disposables. That's not emotion, that's brutality on a massive scale.

 

[Gordy327]

I was writing about the fear ginnef up by Democrat propaganda.

I'm writing actual facts, not political games.

If there is no right to life then all the other rights in the Constitution are meaningless.

How do you figure?

The pro abortion zealots insist on degrading the unborn into subhuman disposables. That's not emotion, that's brutality on a massive scale.

That is an emotional assertion. And it doesn't answer the questions, what is the rational or legal basis to restrict abortion in the least.

 

[Gordy327]

Slaughtering the unborn with no ptetense of due process is what pro abortion zealots did before Dobbs and continue to do in states where legal.

Due process does not apply to the unborn, as they are not legal persons.

As I wrote before there is still work to be done. Indeed, the wau it's supposed to work is via the legislative processes, not judicial fiat.

What fiat? The judiciary ruled on the Constitutionality of state laws, as is their authority.

Thanks fot reconfirming the complete disregard for himan life in the form of unborn children.

More emotionalism. Which also disregards the actual born woman.

 

[weaver2]

The Dobbs decision reduced the slaughter of unborn children so yes, it is acceptable in that sense.

Are you deliberately lying about the abortion rate in the US since Dobbs or are you too ignorant to read honest statistics about abortion. The abortion rate in the US has gone up since Dobbs.

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/abortion-trends-before-and-after-dobbs/:~:text=Wade,%20the%20total%20number%20of,from%20930,160%20abortions%20in%202020.

Not only has the abortion rate increased infant and maternal mortality has increased. In some populatios it has gone up dramaticlly

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/abortion-trends-before-and-after-dobbs/:~:text=Wade,%20the%20total%20number%20of,from%20930,160%20abortions%20in%202020.

There is still work to be done at the state level

What work; killing off more women and infants. And you call that protecting the unborn? NObody is that stupid. You have an agenda you are unwilling to admit to.

convincing state legislatures to protect unborn children and at the Federal level reminding Congress and the President it's good to be pro life.

Pro-life is supporting a rising incident of really bad outcomes by banning abortion. Pro-life is actually pro genetics defects, pro-death for mothers, pro-death for infants and pro abortions.

Are you unhappy with the prospect of millions of children being born instead of slaughtered?

I'm unhappy that more abortions are being performed, more women are dying, more children are being born with serious genetic malformations and more families sink deeper into poverty because of the laws banning abortion. Nobody that truely cares about infants, mothers, children bans abortions and is so stupid that they think they are doing good works.

Your support for banning abortions is pro-pain, pro-poverty, pro-stress, pro-deformed infants, and pro-death..

 

[AZRWinger]

Now you're getting it. Once you can learn to manage your feelings better, you can then learn to realize that "pro-choice" supporters are glad that women may make the choice they need to for their reproductive care, safely, even if they have to go to another state...women can still get the care they need.

Manage my feelings better so I can join you in endorsing the wholesale slaughter of the unborn children as "healthcare" ? No way.

If it's a state's rights issue...what do you foresee? What do you have in mind?

The gradual realization that the casual slaughter of the unborn is wrong leading to a cultural and legal shift towards protection of the unborn as we protect other children.

I leave that "regard" up to the woman it's inside. I invest nothing in the unborn inside strangers...that's up to that woman, based on her needs and those of her family. I find it disturbing that many pro-life people fantasize little "baybees" inside women they dont even know but whatever floats your boat.

There it is, pro abortion zealotry poses as healthcare but the reality is the unborn child is a disposible commodity to them. Worse, defending the life of the unborn is mocked as disturbing.

I value the unborn, but I value all born people more.

According to pro abortion zealots a fully developed unborn child at 8.999 months of pregnancy can have a steel rod driven through her brain killing her then her body is dismembered for removal. They call that healthcare. Where is the value of the life of the unborn child.

 

[AZRWinger]

Are you deliberately lying about the abortion rate in the US since Dobbs or are you too ignorant to read honest statistics about abortion. The abortion rate in the US has gone up since Dobbs.

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/abortion-trends-before-and-after-dobbs/:~:text=Wade,%20the%20total%20number%20of,from%20930,160%20abortions%20in%202020.

Not only has the abortion rate increased infant and maternal mortality has increased. In some populatios it has gone up dramaticlly

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/abortion-trends-before-and-after-dobbs/:~:text=Wade,%20the%20total%20number%20of,from%20930,160%20abortions%20in%202020.

What work; killing off more women and infants. And you call that protecting the unborn? NObody is that stupid. You have an agenda you are unwilling to admit to.

Pro-life is supporting a rising incident of really bad outcomes by banning abortion. Pro-life is actually pro genetics defects, pro-death for mothers, pro-death for infants and pro abortions.

I'm unhappy that more abortions are being performed, more women are dying, more children are being born with serious genetic malformations and more families sink deeper into poverty because of the laws banning abortion. Nobody that truely cares about infants, mothers, children bans abortions and is so stupid that they think they are doing good works.

Your support for banning abortions is pro-pain, pro-poverty, pro-stress, pro-deformed infants, and pro-death..

Neither of the links work. Just like the claim slaughtering the unborn is healthcare.

 

[Gordy327]

Manage my feelings better so I can join you in endorsing the wholesale slaughter of the unborn children as "healthcare" ? No way.

At least you admit you have nothing to go on except feelings.

The gradual realization that the casual slaughter of the unborn is wrong leading to a cultural and legal shift towards protection of the unborn as we protect other children.

Who says it's wrong? By what authority? Abortion is still supported to various degrees by most people and is still performed in most states.

There it is, pro abortion zealotry poses as healthcare but the reality is the unborn child is a disposible commodity to them.

There it is, more hyperbole posing as some kind of point.

Worse, defending the life of the unborn is mocked as disturbing.without regard to their own rights and autonomy that it becmes an issue.

It's not about defense. It's when you try to impose your own views, morals, ideology, or whatever regrding abortion on others

According to pro abortion zealots a fully developed unborn child at 8.999 months of pregnancy can have a steel rod driven through her brain killing her then her body is dismembered for removal. They call that healthcare. Where is the value of the life of the unborn child.

What is the "value" of the unborn/life? Be specific!

 

[weaver2]

Neither of the links work. Just like the claim slaughtering the unborn is healthcare.

All of these should work. The KKF article is very detailed and well sourced.

Abortion increase
In the year following the Supreme Court Dobbs decision, the abortion landscape in the United States became more fractured than ever.
Abortions increased nationwide, according to a new report from #WeCount, a research project led by the Society of Family Planning — the average monthly change in the 12 months post-Dobbs compared to the two months pre-Dobbs adds up to about 2,200 more abortions over the course of a year. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/heal...uality-one-year-post-dobbs-wecount/index.html
The most recent data show that there were more than one million abortions in 2023, slightly up from 930,160 abortions in 2020. For most of the decade prior to the Dobbs ruling, there was a steady decline in abortion rates nationally, with a slight uptick in the years just before the ruling.

Abortion Trends Before and After Dobbs | KFF

This brief reviews the different sources of abortion data in the United States, the factors that have affected abortion rates across the U.S, before and after Roe v. Wade, and what we may see as the Trump administration, Republican majorities in the House and Senate, and a conservative federal...

www.kff.org

Maternal and Infant death increase
Our paper shows a 6% increase in infant mortality among states with bans, corresponding to an additional 478 infant deaths above what we would have expected in the absence of these bans.
We found similar patterns to what we found in our initial Texas paper, but in this paper, we also examined specific states that were impacted. We found that the largest increase in infant mortality—9%—occurred in Texas and Kentucky. In general, we found that these increases were concentrated in Southern states. We also looked at infant mortality among racial/ethnic groups, and found that there was an 11% increase in the infant mortality rate among non-Hispanic Black infants. This increase in Black infant mortality was consistent across states with bans.Our infant mortality results suggest that abortion restrictions may be stopping or even reversing improvements in infant mortality that have been made in recent decades.https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2025/the-unequal-impacts-of-abortion-bans

Increase in infants born with birth defects, handicaps, genetic malformations
States with more restrictive abortion laws following the U.S. Supreme Court's 2022 Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization decision have a higher incidence of babies born with cyanotic congenital heart disease (CCHD), according to a new study being presented

Rates of Congenital Heart Defects Rise in States With Restrictive Abortion Laws - American College of Cardiology

www.acc.org

 

[weaver2]

Manage my feelings better so I can join you in endorsing the wholesale slaughter of the unborn children as "healthcare" ? No way.

The gradual realization that the casual slaughter of the unborn is wrong leading to a cultural and legal shift towards protection of the unborn as we protect other children.

There it is, pro abortion zealotry poses as healthcare but the reality is the unborn child is a disposible commodity to them. Worse, defending the life of the unborn is mocked as disturbing.

According to pro abortion zealots a fully developed unborn child at 8.999 months of pregnancy can have a steel rod driven through her brain killing her then her body is dismembered for removal. They call that healthcare. Where is the value of the life of the unborn child.

You know there is an easy solution that reduces abortions. Start programs that give all women access to the effective contraceptives that women control. Read the Colorado experiment.

The problem with these programs is not the cost. They pay for themselves. Colorado found that it actually saved the state millions and millions of dollars in welfare payments. The problem is that conservatives vote them down because what they really want to do is punish women not prevent unplanned pregnancies.

So until we see conservative males voting for women's contraceptive programs, don't pretend that you are for reducing abortions. What you are into this issue to do is control and punish women.

 

[Citizen]

In my opinion, they aren't even pro birth, they are pro fetus which takes nothing more than them opening their collective mouths and complaining.

They aren’t pro anything. It is all fake

 

[Gordy327]

They aren’t pro anything. It is all fake

Pro-woman suffering maybe. Because is that not the point of abortion restrictions?

 

[Citizen]

Pro-woman suffering maybe. Because is that not the point of abortion restrictions?

Seems to me that’s what it’s all about.

 

[Lursa]

Manage my feelings better so I can join you in endorsing the wholesale slaughter of the unborn children as "healthcare" ? No way.

Manage them, control them so that you can examine the entire issue rationally instead of imagining "little baybees" inside women you dont even know being slaughtered...that kind of disturbing fantasy would take a toll on anyone....

The gradual realization that the casual slaughter of the unborn is wrong leading to a cultural and legal shift towards protection of the unborn as we protect other children.

See above...managing your disturbing fantasies will then allow you to view the protections the Constitution has in place for women and why they matter. And how it would not be possible for the same protections to be extended to the unborn...they cant be treated equally. Managing your feelings will help you to see that society will not benefit from women being reduced to 2nd class citizens again.

And there are no negative effects of abortion on society. If you can list some, please do?

There it is, pro abortion zealotry poses as healthcare but the reality is the unborn child is a disposible commodity to them. Worse, defending the life of the unborn is mocked as disturbing.

Your fantasies about other people are not debate. I dont really know of many that are pro-abortion but the majority of Americans are pro-choice, at least to some extent.

Defending the life of the unborn is no one's business but the woman carrying it. "Imagining" the unborn inside women you dont even know, being slaughtered, shows a grave deficit in knowledge of the procedure...and self-indulgence in wallowing in graphic death. It's a choice you make...but you can learn to control it. Being open to knowledge is the first step.

According to pro abortion zealots a fully developed unborn child at 8.999 months of pregnancy can have a steel rod driven through her brain killing her then her body is dismembered for removal. They call that healthcare. Where is the value of the life of the unborn child.

And when has that ever happened? Why are you making up more stuff? It's just as painful and dangerous to have that done as to have the kid. Why would a woman do that if, at that point, she can get $10,000 - $30,000 for it in a legal private adoption?

If it doesnt happen, if you cant provide the data...it's not even debate...it's what you need to cling to to maintain your self-righteous outrage.

 

[Gordy327]

Seems to me that’s what it’s all about.

Indeed. They just hide behind sanctimony as an excuse for the cruelty.

 

[AZRWinger]

All of these should work. The KKF article is very detailed and well sourced.

Abortion increase
In the year following the Supreme Court Dobbs decision, the abortion landscape in the United States became more fractured than ever.
Abortions increased nationwide, according to a new report from #WeCount, a research project led by the Society of Family Planning — the average monthly change in the 12 months post-Dobbs compared to the two months pre-Dobbs adds up to about 2,200 more abortions over the course of a year. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/heal...uality-one-year-post-dobbs-wecount/index.html
The most recent data show that there were more than one million abortions in 2023, slightly up from 930,160 abortions in 2020. For most of the decade prior to the Dobbs ruling, there was a steady decline in abortion rates nationally, with a slight uptick in the years just before the ruling.

Abortion Trends Before and After Dobbs | KFF

This brief reviews the different sources of abortion data in the United States, the factors that have affected abortion rates across the U.S, before and after Roe v. Wade, and what we may see as the Trump administration, Republican majorities in the House and Senate, and a conservative federal...

www.kff.org

Maternal and Infant death increase
Our paper shows a 6% increase in infant mortality among states with bans, corresponding to an additional 478 infant deaths above what we would have expected in the absence of these bans.
We found similar patterns to what we found in our initial Texas paper, but in this paper, we also examined specific states that were impacted. We found that the largest increase in infant mortality—9%—occurred in Texas and Kentucky. In general, we found that these increases were concentrated in Southern states. We also looked at infant mortality among racial/ethnic groups, and found that there was an 11% increase in the infant mortality rate among non-Hispanic Black infants. This increase in Black infant mortality was consistent across states with bans.Our infant mortality results suggest that abortion restrictions may be stopping or even reversing improvements in infant mortality that have been made in recent decades.https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2025/the-unequal-impacts-of-abortion-bans

Increase in infants born with birth defects, handicaps, genetic malformations
States with more restrictive abortion laws following the U.S. Supreme Court's 2022 Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization decision have a higher incidence of babies born with cyanotic congenital heart disease (CCHD), according to a new study being presented

Rates of Congenital Heart Defects Rise in States With Restrictive Abortion Laws - American College of Cardiology

www.acc.org

Gee, what a surprise, pro abortion groups find abortion increases.

 

[Gordy327]

Gee, what a surprise, pro abortion groups find abortion increases.

Who cares?

 

[AZRWinger]

At least you admit you have nothing to go on except feelings.

Another strawman.

Who says it's wrong? By what authority? Abortion is still supported to various degrees by most people and is still performed in most states.

There it is, more hyperbole posing as some kind of point.

It's not about defense. It's when you try to impose your own views, morals, ideology, or whatever regrding abortion on others

Protecting unborn, innocent children from the Eugenics inspired slaughter by abortionists is a recognition of human rights. Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger held that abortion of babies from inferior races was the best thing for them. Modern abortion radicals expand this thought to all the unborn as progress.

Yes, society imposes views, values and ideology through popular opinion and law such as those requiring minimal care for children. Pro abortion zealots impose the perverse degradation of the unborn to subhuman status to justify their slaughter.

What is the "value" of the unborn/life? Be specific!

What's the value of human life? The question is an admission of the abortionists creed reducing the unborn to subhuman status.

 

[Gordy327]

Another strawman.

Not at all. You admitted you have feelings on the matter.

Protecting unborn, innocent children from the Eugenics inspired slaughter by abortionists is a recognition of human rights. Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger held that abortion of babies from inferior races was the best thing for them. Modern abortion radicals expand this thought to all the unborn as progress.

Now thats a Strawman. Ms Sanger has been dead for 60 years. Hardly relevant to current times.

Yes, society imposes views, values and ideology through popular opinion and law such as those requiring minimal care for children.

the issue is abortion, not child care/rearing

Pro abortion zealots impose the perverse degradation of the unborn to subhuman status to justify their slaughter.

More emotionalism.

What's the value of human life? The question is an admission of the abortionists creed reducing the unborn to subhuman status.

So you cannot answer the question? Duly noted.