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Are these guys Socialists?

Are these guys Socialists too?

  • Yes...Damn forefathers were nuts

    Votes: 3 37.5%

  • No...How dare you say such a thing

    Votes: 3 37.5%

  • Uh...Those are fake letters,and you have a funny hat

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Socialism has evolved since then

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • Total voters
    8

tecoyah

Illusionary
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If Obama can be called a Socialist by some...by the same criteria, so must Reagan. But the Ideas go back much further, and are primarily Republican.

[h=6]"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation." - Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Madison, October 28, 1785

"I believe it can be sustained, because it does not increase the tax upon the 'many poor' but upon the 'wealthy few' ... If, however, the wealthy should ... complain of the change, ... they are not sufficiently numerous to carry the elections." - Abraham Lincoln, Letter to William S. Wait, March 2, 1839[/h]
 
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No....
Progressive taxation does not make you a socialist.
But going on some of them users views on this some may say that just because you are in favor of progressive taxation that makes you a socialist... Such ignorance is hysterical.
 
I think people put way too much stock and meaning behind words like "socialist" or "capitalist," probably because they are unable or unwilling to understand the complexities of economic systems or of people's individual positions. It's much easier to label something as socialist(or some other label) and forgo any further study, because if it carries that label than it must be wrong therefore my ignorance is justified because I already know what I'll find if I looked into it further.

There's certainly no excuse for that kind of behavior.
 

When Jefferson was making his observations of the poor in Europe, his thoughts were that the poor should have their own plot of land to work and support themselves, if they were unable to find jobs. This isn't quite the same thing as Democrat social welfare policies. He appears to have believed that it was the responsibility of every man to provide for himself, and that he should have a plot of land to toil and labor if he was unemployed.


Pretty typical politician, I would say. Just do what you want as long as you have the votes to get re-elected.
 
Tecoyah's here!!! Good to see you, tec.
 

You are giving many too much credit to many for critical thinking. What I've seen a lot of is that many are just informed and accept who their leadership is and 'think' what they are instructed to 'think'.
 
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Actually Jefferson was the ultimate socialist in this regard! He wanted every poor person to control their own means of production.
 
iliveonramen said:
Actually Jefferson was the ultimate socialist in this regard! He wanted every poor person to control their own means of production.
Click to expand...

He wanted them to produce, and did not expect others to produce for them. I have absolutely no problem with that idea.
 
Maybe something labelled "socialism" today has been actually common desire since long ago.
 
oliveryty said:
Maybe something labelled "socialism" today has been actually common desire since long ago.
Click to expand...

It's an idea which seems to be desired by those who lack the skills, motivation, or ability to achieve by their own will and input, or by those who have a guilt complex about their own success.
 
lizzie said:
It's an idea which seems to be desired by those who lack the skills, motivation, or ability to achieve by their own will and input, or by those who have a guilt complex about their own success.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the point
 
iliveonramen said:
Actually Jefferson was the ultimate socialist in this regard! He wanted every poor person to control their own means of production.
Click to expand...


and like many socialists, he was unable to control his own spending, when he died his debt was greater than that of America's
 
Talk is cheap, and quotations mean crap. I could say I'm Queen Elizabeth and it doesn't make me a monarchist.

Reagan headed the largest corporate tax cut in history. That would be like me putting on the royal crown and waving from Buckingham.
 
I dunno.

It seems likely that they were discussing their thoughts with each other, much like we do on this forum - only far faster in our case.


Hell, from one perspective, I think he has a point.

But on the other hand, I can see possible issues with that approach.

I've always thought that a flat-rate tax (with, perhaps, some exemptions in some areas) would be better than a progressive tax.

But who knows?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
No....
Progressive taxation does not make you a socialist.
Click to expand...
I like to look at this way. "Progressive" means that you have to be progressing to some place. So the question is, are progressives progressing toward Socialism, or are progressives progressing toward Capitalism? Where are progressives progressing to? Where, Democratic Socialist, do you think YOU are progressing? I suspect it very much has something to do with your moniker.
 
What is being discussed here is the 1785 letter from Jefferson to Madison.
I think it's much fairer to contextualize the lonely quote.
Here is the whole letter:
Letter to James Madison - October 28, 1785 - Wikisource
Jefferson was referring to France in the beginning then to how it should play out in our country.

and at least the full paragraph in question.
Clearly Jefferson is against Concentrated wealth and power which obviously makes for a poor democracy.

This phrase also very telling:
"...But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property.."
I think gives incite into what he would approve of today in the way of relief for the poor/unemployed/progressive tax/estate tax.

and it should be noted, the French Revolution Started just 4 years after this letter describing great wealth inequality in that country and seeking it avoid it in ours.

PS: the poll choices above are goofy.
This letter should get a more serious airing and I may do so in the future.
 
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TurtleDude said:
and like many socialists, he was unable to control his own spending, when he died his debt was greater than that of America's
Click to expand...

but.... but ..... but ..... he was one of the sainted Founding Fathers and wrote the Declaration of Independence... so how could he be wrong? I thought you right libertarians could not get enough of folks who were the great minds of the 1700's?
 
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