Are the antivaxxers the same people who refused to lock down?

I wish I could find the answer for this one but nothing comes up on google. I wonder if those who now refuse to vaccinate and want to live life like normal are the same ones who refused to lock down and both actions have lead to this third or fourth surge and the number of deaths this country has seen and is seeing now. The earlier variants of Covid did not seem to attack the young as much as they did the old, but this Delta variant seems to be proving different. Pediatric ICU's all over the county are now filling up with sick and dying children. So are the anti lock down people the same ones who are now antivaxxers? Are they in some way responsible for the continued spread of the virus and the deaths it causes?

Truthers became anti-vaxers. We never hear about mini-nukes and holograms these days.

independentusa said:

...both actions have lead to this third or fourth surge and the number of deaths this country has seen and is seeing now.

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Starting a thread with demonstrably false premise is bad form.

The third and fourth waves are extant everywhere on Earth, locked down and not, highly vaccinated and not. They're extant because the vaccines are only marginally effective (and getting less so by the day), and because lockdowns have been proven in too many studies to count now to have no effectiveness at containing COVID.

Don't demonize people of differing political views because the 2020 narrative of "miracle" vaccines and lockdowns exterminating COVID and returning life to normal has completely fallen apart.

The anti-vaxxers are the old crazy truthers.

They are truly mentally unable to cope with facts.

COTO said:

Starting a thread with demonstrably false premise is bad form.

The third and fourth waves are extant everywhere on Earth, locked down and not, highly vaccinated and not. They're extant because the vaccines are only marginally effective (and getting less so by the day), and because lockdowns have been proven in too many studies to count now to have no effectiveness at containing COVID.

Don't demonize people of differing political views because the 2020 narrative of "miracle" vaccines and lockdowns exterminating COVID and returning life to normal has completely fallen apart.

Click to expand...

“The critics can point out the limitations to lockdowns and say, ‘See the lockdown isn’t perfect and the vaccine isn’t 100 percent effective.’ While they are correct, they are missing what’s important, which is that public health measures all reinforce each other and help reduce the risk of exposure to COVID-19 by a lot,” Hirsch told Healthline.

Vaccines work, PPP works, masking works, lock downs work as intended. It's your concept of "work" that needs help. They all limit spread, and prevent massive death. Nobody I know thinks they eliminate the virus but they do prevent the mess with overrun hospitals, morgues, limited staff and resources. That's what breaks a state, or a country. That's what puts us on the no fly zone, with triage in our streets with military deployment. It's massive spread, and massive death and injury.

For example: New Zealand knows they work as intended. They get a few cases then lock down around them and squelch it. America has never gotten to that goal, even though we've explained that to be what is needed to live a free life free from Covid. There will be outbreaks, but they will be small and easily contained. Our size does not matter, but our attitude and failed leadership does. It is political, you can't say it's not.

Barring a few cases in February, New Zealand had been largely free of coronavirus until the Delta outbreak prompted Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern to order the snap lockdown last month.

Authorities reported 49 new infections in the outbreak epicentre of Auckland, a fall from 75 on Wednesday, taking the tally to 736.

"The latest lower number is encouraging and does show that our alert level 4 lockdown is working, even against Delta," the Director General of Health Ashley Bloomfield told a news conference.https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-says-covid-19-case-drop-shows-lockdown-working-against-delta-2021-09-02/

COTO said:

Starting a thread with demonstrably false premise is bad form.

The third and fourth waves are extant everywhere on Earth, locked down and not, highly vaccinated and not. They're extant because the vaccines are only marginally effective (and getting less so by the day), and because lockdowns have been proven in too many studies to count now to have no effectiveness at containing COVID.

Don't demonize people of differing political views because the 2020 narrative of "miracle" vaccines and lockdowns exterminating COVID and returning life to normal has completely fallen apart.

Click to expand...

Well, that is your unproven premise.

COTO said:

Starting a thread with demonstrably false premise is bad form.

The third and fourth waves are extant everywhere on Earth, locked down and not, highly vaccinated and not. They're extant because the vaccines are only marginally effective (and getting less so by the day), and because lockdowns have been proven in too many studies to count now to have no effectiveness at containing COVID.

Don't demonize people of differing political views because the 2020 narrative of "miracle" vaccines and lockdowns exterminating COVID and returning life to normal has completely fallen apart.

Click to expand...

Marginally effective? Apparently you don't understand how vaccines work.

@Ginger Ale: I've done the "dueling studies" thing about lockdowns in at least four other threads now.

For sake of argument, I'll agree with your statement "They all limit spread, and prevent massive death." by amending it to "They marginally limit spread, and marginally prevent death." Just for this thread.

But even granting this, my response is: "...both actions have lead to this third or fourth surge and the number of deaths this country has seen and is seeing now" is not a true statement.

If we grant that vaccination and lockdowns have some effectiveness, the OP might be able to get away with "...both actions have contributed to this third or fourth surge and the number of deaths this country has seen and is seeing now", but not "...have lead to...". It's simply not true that these surges wouldn't be extant if we'd only locked down and vaccinated "harder". That was the narrative in 2020. The optimism was admirable, but the conclusion was simply wrong.

mrjurrs said:

Marginally effective? Apparently you don't understand how vaccines work.

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what we have to fight to keep people alive is shameful.

mrjurrs said:

Marginally effective? Apparently you don't understand how vaccines work.

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I should disclaim that most of the vaccines have proven effective at reducing the number of patients with serious and life-threatening complications. (This represents only a tiny fraction of anyone who's ever had COVID, of course, but I digress.)

At stopping the virus from spreading: not so much. In fact, in Canada, at this time last year (when absolutely nobody was vaccinated), our daily COVID caseload was less than a tenth what we're seeing today (when the vast majority of Canadians are vaccinated).

Considering 8 of the 10 nations on Earth currently experiencing the worst COVID outbreaks are among the world's most highly vaccinated nations, it's not going to take too much longer before even the media has to admit that the vaccines are not halting--or even impeding, it would seem--the spread of the virus.

This is what I mean by "marginal".

COTO said:

I should disclaim that most of the vaccines have proven effective at reducing the number of patients with serious and life-threatening complications. (This represents only a tiny fraction of anyone who's ever had COVID, of course, but I digress.)

At stopping the virus from spreading: not so much. In fact, in Canada, at this time last year (when absolutely nobody was vaccinated), our daily COVID caseload was less than a tenth what we're seeing today (when the vast majority of Canadians are vaccinated).

Considering 8 of the 10 nations on Earth currently experiencing the worst COVID outbreaks are among the world's most highly vaccinated nations, it's not going to take too much longer before even the media has to admit that the vaccines are not halting--or even impeding, it would seem--the spread of the virus.

This is what I mean by "marginal".

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Delta is a variant of COVID 19. The fact that it is still effective against the variant is a huge bonus. We may not be so lucky with the next mutation. How many people that are vaccinated are in the ICU taking up space? How many of the vaccinated are dying? Couldn't disagree more with your characterization. Please note, the chart below includes partially vaccinated people in the 'Not Fully Vaccinated' category.

I'm sure there is overlap.

COTO said:

I should disclaim that most of the vaccines have proven effective at reducing the number of patients with serious and life-threatening complications. (This represents only a tiny fraction of anyone who's ever had COVID, of course, but I digress.)

At stopping the virus from spreading: not so much. In fact, in Canada, at this time last year (when absolutely nobody was vaccinated), our daily COVID caseload was less than a tenth what we're seeing today (when the vast majority of Canadians are vaccinated).

Considering 8 of the 10 nations on Earth currently experiencing the worst COVID outbreaks are among the world's most highly vaccinated nations, it's not going to take too much longer before even the media has to admit that the vaccines are not halting--or even impeding, it would seem--the spread of the virus.

This is what I mean by "marginal".

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Correlation is not causation.

Let's see the science.

I am sure there are quite some correlation.

joluoto said:

I am sure there are quite some correlation.

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Show it.

mrjurrs said:

Please note, the chart below includes partially vaccinated people in the 'Not Fully Vaccinated' category.

Click to expand...

We need to consider the specific population the chart is looking at, the time period over which it collected its data, and other details of its methodology.

I have no trouble believing that when vaccines first came out and the variants weren't as prevalent, the statistics for most nations resembled those of the graphs. But the vaccines are losing effectiveness by the week and not holding up nearly as well against the variants.

I'll also point out--as a million people have pointed out a million times before--that the overwhelming majority of people who wind up in the ICU with COVID are old, obese, diabetic, and/or riddled with comorbidities. For such people, I would say taking the vaccine--even with the known and unknown risks--is worth it.

COTO said:

We need to consider the specific population the chart is looking at, the time period over which it collected its data, and other details of its methodology.

I have no trouble believing that when vaccines first came out and the variants weren't as prevalent, the statistics for most nations resembled those of the graphs. But the vaccines are losing effectiveness by the week and not holding up nearly as well against the variants.

I'll also point out--as a million people have pointed out a million times before--that the overwhelming majority of people who wind up in the ICU with COVID are old, obese, diabetic, and/or riddled with comorbidities. For such people, I would say taking the vaccine--even with the known and unknown risks--is worth it.

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You are not dealing with the facts as they exist.

The U.S. is experiencing another spike in COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations driven by the emergence of the Delta variant. A large majority of new hospitalizations and deaths from COVID-19 are occurring among unvaccinated people. A new CDC reportTrusted Source shows that since July 26, there have been only 6,587 reports of breakthrough infections that resulted in hospitalization or death among 163 million fully vaccinated people — a percentage of 0.01 percent or less.

mrjurrs said:

A new CDC reportTrusted Source shows that since July 26, there have been only 6,587 reports of breakthrough infections that resulted in hospitalization or death among 163 million fully vaccinated people — a percentage of 0.01 percent or less.

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Indeed. Because the vaccine is (or at least was) effective at reducing mortality and hospitalization in vulnerable people--which I've affirmed in several posts already. I've also clearly stated: "For such people, I would say taking the vaccine--even with the known and unknown risks--is worth it."

What the vaccines do not do is prevent the virus from circulating, or--it would currently appear--to even reduce the likelihood and magnitude of outbreaks. As I also stated earlier, 8 of the 10 nations currently experiencing the worst COVID outbreaks are among the most heavily vaccinated nations on Earth.

Hence I'm not categorically opposed to people getting vaccinated. For people in the high risk groups--the obese, the diabetic, the very old, etc.--the risk calculus makes sense. For people not in these groups, given both the known and unknown risks of the vaccines, and furthermore given the dire human and economic consequences of lockdowns, I would oppose lockdowns and vaccine mandates even if I didn't consider them both to be terrible and dangerous precedents--which I very much do.

COTO said:

Indeed. Because the vaccine is (or at least was) effective at reducing mortality and hospitalization in vulnerable people--which I've affirmed in several posts already. I've also clearly stated: "For such people, I would say taking the vaccine--even with the known and unknown risks--is worth it."

What the vaccines do not do is prevent the virus from circulating, or--it would currently appear--to even reduce the likelihood and magnitude of outbreaks. As I also stated earlier, 8 of the 10 nations currently experiencing the worst COVID outbreaks are among the most heavily vaccinated nations on Earth.

Hence I'm not categorically opposed to people getting vaccinated. For people in the high risk groups--the obese, the diabetic, the very old, etc.--the risk calculus makes sense. For people not in these groups, given both the known and unknown risks of the vaccines, and furthermore given the dire human and economic consequences of lockdowns, I would oppose lockdowns and vaccine mandates even if I didn't consider them both to be terrible and dangerous precedents--which I very much do.

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Imo, you are missing the point. Unvaccinated people die. Unvaccinated people are hospitalized. Unvaccinated people cause the lockdowns and mandates. Unvaccinated people are putting the fragile economic recovery in danger.

100% in favor of mandated vaccines with health exemptions only.

mrjurrs said:

Unvaccinated people cause the lockdowns and mandates. Unvaccinated people are putting the fragile economic recovery in danger.

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Even if I agreed with you (I don't), this is like blaming a wife (unvaccinated persons) for her husband (the government) endlessly beating her.

People are losing their businesses, their rights, their freedoms, their ability to work, their economic security because of national governments, not because COVID inherently does any of these things.

They were and still are the militantly maskless.

COTO said:

Even if I agreed with you (I don't), this is like blaming a wife (unvaccinated persons) for her husband (the government) endlessly beating her.

People are losing their businesses, their rights, their freedoms, their ability to work, their economic security because of national governments, not because COVID inherently does any of these things.

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You're wrong.

COTO said:

Starting a thread with demonstrably false premise is bad form.

The third and fourth waves are extant everywhere on Earth, locked down and not, highly vaccinated and not. They're extant because the vaccines are only marginally effective (and getting less so by the day), and because lockdowns have been proven in too many studies to count now to have no effectiveness at containing COVID.

Don't demonize people of differing political views because the 2020 narrative of "miracle" vaccines and lockdowns exterminating COVID and returning life to normal has completely fallen apart.

Click to expand...

Lockdowns have been known for a century to not have any positive effect, during the swine flu outbreak they tried forced lockdowns, mask mandates, and social distancing, all of those had zero effect on the swine flu outbreak but simply managed to cripple economic output. The swine flu was contained when they discovered how to treat the symptoms most specifically pneumonia.

Lockdowns and self quarantine never would have worked anyways, the virus is already spreading before symptoms are present, so that means if you had to self quarantine or go on lockdown because a large number of cases, that means you are too late the virus had already spread to others even before a lockdown or a quarantine was issued.

Maybe scientists should stop calling science science when 100 years of science says mask mandates and lockdowns and social distancing did nothing to stop the last pandemic 100 years ago, but scientists threw out all medical norms to try and re invent the wheel. To make it worse ventillators are still the common go to for doctors despite being shown to be more likely to kill a covid patient than save them, over a year ago they found unless the patients lungs could not operate that giving them an oxygen tank had greatly higher survival rate, while ventillators darn near killed them faster than covid could.

"Marginally effective" they say about a vaccine that reduces your chance of being hospitalized by like 90%

Those who have been saying that we would would be better off without the Covid vaccine has mostly educated at home or in private schools. Their critical thinking abilities are barely developed.