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Are massless supports valid for use in progressive collapse simulation?

Let me put these oscillations into an everyday framework which makes their nature clearer.

You've seen how a bass woofer in speaker cabinet vibrates, yes? This is like taking a speaker cabinet and throwing it out a 20th story window WHILE it's playing some music that has bass.

Where is this woofer with a cone more than a ton?

There might be some with a one kilogram mass. One ton would only require 909 times as much force. A single floor slab was 600 tons. The table I used started with 1,000 tons and went up from there but my program wasn't analysing motion to the detail that yours supposedly did. So you explain the relevance of your detail to 400,000 tons skyscrapers.

psik
 
They're not oscillating wildly, for god's sakes, they're oscillating exactly at the frequency and magnitude of two 1kg mass coupled to each other via a force constraint which has reached full compaction; that is, rehardening of the squashed "columns" to an elastic response with MUCH higher stiffness than the intact column and shorter length (typically 20% original length or about 3/4ths meter).
A few words of explanation for anyone following this.

In this model, the lowest part of the upper section (plus "debris") impacts the highest part of the remaining intact lower structure in an inelastic collision. Inelastic collisions conserve momentum but do not conserve KINETIC energy. The law of conservation of energy dictates that, while energy can assume different forms (mechanical, thermal, electrical potential, gravitational potential) and change forms within a closed system, the total energy in all forms remains constant.

Typically, in physics, the issue of what happens to the lost kinetic energy of an inelastic collision is quickly dispensed with by noting that real bodies have internal degrees of freedom, and the translational kinetic energy goes into deformation, heat and vibration.

Big surprise then, that colliding masses should vibrate!

Then, the notion of where the kinetic energy goes in an inelastic collision is never discussed again. Who cares? If a collision is inelastic, a computable fraction of kinetic energy is lost, period - by definition. That's how the problem is treated in an analytical fashion.

When it comes to simulation, though, it's an entirely different thing. Any dynamics simulator must first and foremost conserve energy! This is a primary validation technique for my simulations. Is energy of all types conserved throughout the simulation? The first clue that a computational error has occurred is failure to conserve energy.

If the accretion is inelastic, where the hell does that energy go? Same answer as in physics class - vibration, heat, etc.

Some environments, like physics engines, provide a parameter called restitution which specifies the elasticity of a body in collision as a number between 0 and 1, with 0 being perfectly inelastic and 1 being perfectly elastic. This allows direct control of kinetic energy lost in collision by invoking momentum conservation equations as part of a collision transaction, and are handled separately from continuous forces acting on the body. I've used these and this method of "throwing away" kinetic energy obeys the laws of physics just fine. Some of the graphs are above.

If an environment DOESN'T have a restitution property, as is the case with the program which produced the graph with oscillations, where does the kinetic energy go when two bodies collide? The program does have damping capability, so that's a legitimate sink like restitution, but it will only act on vibrational energy. Well, what happens when a column crushes (aka two bodies collide)? In the program, the stiffness at full compaction is jacked way up, and the force become elastic. That keeps it from compacting any further; that's what FULL COMPACTION means. But ELASTIC means like an ideal spring, and the energy of motion didn't just disappear on impact. It went into vibration.

-------


In fact, psikeyhackr's prior objections to the presence of vibration is what's absurd, not the vibration itself. This is a physics-based, F=ma step solver. It iterates over all bodies in the system, evaluates the forces acting on it and computes resulting acceleration for a very small time-slice, using either Euler or Runge-Kutta approximations to the function value, then integrates over the time for the change in position. It conserves energy unless there's an appropriate sink. The ONLY appropriate sink to mimic inelastic collision is

translational KE -> vibrational KE

From there, it can be damped or not. He's been squawking about the undamped graph. Doesn't matter to the collapse mechanics; the energy has been moved from translational kinetic to vibrational, it no longer affects the translational dynamics.
 
Where is this woofer with a cone more than a ton?
Seriously, after all that, that's all you can ask???

WTF does a ton have to do with anything? My masses aren't a ton, your masses aren't a ton, the WTC masses aren't a ton... The masses in this simulation were 1kg, that's all that matters in the results of THAT simulation. Why would you expect the result to reflect >1 ton masses?


There might be some with a one kilogram mass.
Some... what? Some vibration? You damn straight there would be.

One ton would only require 909 times as much force.
Soooo? 909 times as much force would be available. This is a self-supporting structure. Duh!

A single floor slab was 600 tons. The table I used started with 1,000 tons and went up from there but my program wasn't analysing motion to the detail that yours supposedly did.
There was no attempt to analyze in detail. It's essentially like your Python program but with a lot more of the MISSING physics filled in. The vibration is an UNWANTED detail, but a legitimate artifact of a realistic simulation...

...using 1kg masses! Because the results are the same for the same demand-to-capacity ratio using ANY mass value.

The ****ing vibration frequency WILL change! But no one except you gives a damn about vibration! It's a secondary effect of no interest to the problem. Even a 600 ton assembly will vibrate when colliding with another - and SHATTER too, and MANY of the modes will be higher frequency than this. It isn't necessary for the entire thing to oscillate as a unit with one characteristic period. That's idiocy. Mine do because they are TWO 1kg POINT masses connected by an elastic force.

So you explain the relevance of your detail to 400,000 tons skyscrapers.
There isn't much. But there's even less in your Python program and physical model. That's a fact.
 
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Let me ask: Do you honestly think there's some mass large enough that there isn't a large enough spring constant to make it vibrate? Do you see anywhere in Hooke's law where it says "only up to a certain mass?"

This is incredibly ****ing stupid.

ANY mass will vibrate in collision. This is an indisputable fact. It's also a fact that you've tried to make this indisputable fact (and corroboration of simulator accuracy!) into an endless distraction.

Change the mass and/or the spring constant, and the period and frequency will change accordingly. The notion of a large 600 ton assembly vibrating like a single unit is absurd - it would have millions of internal oscillatory modes, some higher frequency than mine - but ya damn straight a 600 ton POINT mass would vibrate on spring just like 1kg does. Get the right spring constant, and it will even be the same frequency.
 
THE SUBJECT IS:
massless connections


THE SUBJECT IS NOT:
vibration
1kg masses


In allowing the remote possibility that discussion of the last two have a bearing on the first, I've entertained some excursion into these off topic distractions. However, instead of converging on the relevance of these to the topic, you are diverging and it's clear that this is an attempt to distract with no relevance whatsoever.

Do I need to make two more threads to cover the other objections? It figures, you finally have a dedicated thread to make your case on massless connections and you spend all your time talking about 1kg masses and vibrations. With two more threads, you'll have nowhere to hide. Your objections will be exposed as the patent nonsense and ignorant beliefs they are.
 
THE SUBJECT IS:
massless connections


THE SUBJECT IS NOT:
vibration
1kg masses

More like the ridiculousness of using massless COMPRESSION connections to say something relevant about a problem involving 400,000 tons. Something massless should be able to vibrate much faster than 100 hz. LOL

The massless connections supposedly support something so you have to include all of the components in the system. You just think that you can define and control the debate but still expect participation.

psik
 
More like the ridiculousness of using massless COMPRESSION connections to say something relevant about a problem involving 400,000 tons.
If you prefer.

Something massless should be able to vibrate much faster than 100 hz. LOL
Masses vibrating on massless springs is ubiquitous in textbooks and articles. The fact that you didn't know this until I pointed it out does say something about what you know and how credible your objections are. Remember, your first criticism about massless springs/connections was how absurd masslessness was at all... after I produced examples showing how common it was, you shifted your arguments to "3.7m massless springs in compression" as if that made any difference. Massless connections are used all the time. Having never done any real analysis yourself, of course you don't know the difference between commonly accepted and ridiculous.

You think potential energy is not energy; so who should care what your opinion of massless connections are in analysis you've never done in your life, and wouldn't know how to start?

Seriously; what makes YOU the expert when you have zero education and experience in the subject?

The massless connections supposedly support something so you have to include all of the components in the system. You just think that you can define and control the debate but still expect participation.
I can replace "1kg" in the program with "10000kg" with four keystrokes. I can turn damping on and the oscillations go away. Are you trying to claim you can't and wouldn't then complain about massless connections in isolation? Are they a separate issue or inseparable? Because if they're inseparable, I'll just change the mass per your recommendation and leave damping on, and then you'll have nothing to complain about.

RIGHT?
 
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Some outstanding (and clearly not rhetorical) questions I've asked which you've elected to ignore.

1) Yours [connections] have no properties at all. Shouldn't I be mocking you for something worse than something you mock?
Simple yes or no. Shouldn't I be mocking your Python model with NO connections instead of defending my own WITH connections?

2) I'm sorry. It was wrong, I should've disclosed it [massless connections] at the top of the first post. You feel better now?
Simple yes or no.

3) Do you even know what a damper is?
Do you or don't you?

4) if using massless connections is ridiculous, why are the results between massless and massful connections nearly identical?
This would take a bit of explanation, but you're the one claiming use of massless connections is invalid. I claim that it doesn't matter for this model because it doesn't affect the results significantly. Show that it would affect the results or explain what other criteria you use to judge. What besides affecting the result matters?

5) Would you like to go through the analysis in detail to finally understand why you're wrong? [referring to the previous]
Simple yes or no.

6) Now that you know it's [graph #10] exactly the same as the suspect simulation, only with damping, do you have a problem with it?
Simple yes or no.

7) Need anything more [than the fact that all are either slab or mass-spring-damper models] to make a determination as to okay/ridiculous?
Simple yes or no. I wanted an answer to this before going any farther, but you elected to ignore it.

8) Do you now understand why the simplest of these 1D models can use 1kg masses and get the same result as 1000kg or 10^6 kg?
Simple yes or no.

9) Yours [python program] did not oscillate at all! How realistic is that?
State whether you think your software model is more or less realistic than any of mine, since (some kinds of) "realism" seems the be the whole of your argument.

10) Have you EVER seen metal (or anything else for that matter) collide SOUNDLESSLY?
Simple yes or no.

11) Maybe part of the problem is you think these are large amplitude oscillations?
Simple yes or no. If yes, you're wrong. If no, you never had anything to bitch about in the first place.

12) Do you honestly think there's some mass large enough that there isn't a large enough spring constant to make it vibrate?
Simple yes or no.

13) Do you see anywhere in Hooke's law where it says "only up to a certain mass?"
Simple yes or no.
 
Ummm, Kat... You have provided an amazing amount of information. Solidly based in scientific method and practice... at some point you have to realize that some are emotionally attached to their ideas... or incapable of saying they are wrong... even if they know they are on some deeper subconscious level... and move on to something more productive... like holding back the tides...

Nice thread
 
Thanks... and I know. It makes it even more pathetic, doesn't it?

I guess the only thing I can offer as a justification - lame as it is - is that it's a challenge. Call it the "poster-boy" test. If I can get psikeyhackr to admit he's wrong about anything we've argued, then I might be inclined to believe there's some hope for humankind. If I can get him to admit he's wrong about the three objections mentioned in this thread (where there's only supposed to be one), then every objection he's raised about my work for the last several years is null and void.

All three objections are nothing short of absurd. Preposterous. Merely raising them displays shocking ignorance of the most basic mechanics and modeling methodology. My task is to convince the source of their wrongness. Waste of time so far. If I succeed, though, I'll have done what most consider impossible. That's the carrot, I think.
 
And here goes with more...


psikeyhackr: I deliberately held off answering some of your questions until you answered one of mine. Regardless of whether you answer, I'll answer these now.

You are saying that doing a simulation with MASSLESS supports makes sense.
Absolutely.

What is the total mass of the columns at the first level of the WTC towers versus the mass of the load (Mg) they support? More or less than 10% (YOUR arbitrary criteria)? I'll have to check, but I doubt they're even 1%. Same for the columns at the 96th story or 98th or any story you care to pick.

That's the way it goes when you're talking about any kind of building, let alone skyscraper.

What kind of schmuck architect/engineer designs a building where the supports weigh 10% of what they support??? Jesus. All there would be is a short skeleton of thick columns and no reserve capacity for floors, forget about office contents.

The whole purpose of designing a building is to provide as much usable general purpose volume and capacity as is economical in the context. Downtown Manhattan is expensive real estate per square foot, so you get things like 110 story skyscrapers there where you don't in Skokie, Illinois. The engineering task is to design self-supporting structures that can support dead load, and even support mass in a three-story apartment buildings is dwarfed by what they hold. All the more true for superlative skyscrapers which were once the tallest buildings in the world.

So, it would seem ANY model which doesn't use supports which have mass insignificant to what they support is an UNREALISTIC model.

The 1D slab model is mass scale invariant; I can use 1kg story masses and get the same result as 10kg, 1000000kg, 33334444kg... ANY NUMBER GIVEs THE SAME RESULT so long as all are scaled the same. What is 1% of 1kg? Doesn't matter -

- mass of supports ARE always negligible when modeling buildings
- massless connections are therefore applicable by any standard
- massless connections are the only sensible choice for this model
- massless connections should be used even for a 400000 ton model


Reminder: the context is 1D models - analytical or computational - and specifically the slab model. This rules out traditional FEA as part of the context. In FEA, of course material elements are typically assigned a mass (usually by assigning a density to the material). Know what? FEA SUCKS for modeling progressive collapse, for reasons already explained in this thread.
 
The slab model in its simplest form exhibits invariance with respect to total mass or demand-to-capacity ratio. What is not an invariant in this problem is STORY height.

It's easy to manufacture supports which hold 100x their own mass in axial compression - any pine 2x2 less than four feet tall will do that. The columns in the towers easily satisifed the criteria of being neglible mass compared to their capacity. Anyone wishing to model progressive collapse of the towers can easily justify lumping the mass of the columns together with the stories and calling the supports massless.

Since the slab model is mass scale invariant, it's easy to justify using 1kg masses: XYZm/m = XYZ. Since vibration of masses in collision is normal physical behavior, no one can object if it happens.


But NO ONE can justify making the story height smaller. Ring a bell, psikeyhackr? Changing the story height from 3.7m to less than an inch is completely unacceptable. An understandable mistake if the person in question doesn't understand what potential energy is.

That's why, when I PROPERLY model the supports as massless, I still maintain 3.7m height if trying to have SOME relevance to the towers. The physics doesn't give a damn whether it's possible to manufacture real supports like that with today's material science, or if they could ever be manufactured at all. Only someone completely ignorant of physics and modeling in general would make such a claim. Likewise, this is the sort of person who'll scale 3.7m down to less than an inch and call it a relevant model.

It's easy to make steel columns 3.7m high which support orders of magnitude more mass than their own. Still, that's beyond any "simple, physical model", that's recreating the actual thing. It's not easy to fabricate something 3.7m high which has mass less than 100g which can support 36+kg, but it's probably not impossible. Does it matter? No, these are equations, not a physical system.

The real physical system is not 1D, either!!!! My... god....

There is no such thing as a point mass, no physical thing that has one dimension, no such thing as 2D sheet. There's no such thing as a massless spring, no massless dampers, no perfectly rigid bodies, no perfectly elastic body. No instantaneous interactions except quantum entanglement.

Yet physics and engineering use these abstractions all the time, they pervade practically every textbook and article. Reason: they work. Good enough.

But someone without a lick of education in the relevant fields has a problem with it.
 
So presumably the simulation is not TOO DIFFERENT from reality.
A useful simulation either describes an actual system or gives the results of a system which is useful to study in a more general sense. My simulations fall into the latter category. They are not models of the towers, though they have better applicability to the tower collapses than EITHER of your two models. I've never claimed they were, and I've said many times that they aren't.

Does that mean they're useless? NO. Not when thousands of people are running around talking out their ass about "violations of physics", "violations of Newton's law", "15% of a structure can't collapse the other 85%" and similar nonsense. These models are perfectly good for demonstrating the ignorance of such claims, and I'm sure you recognize your own among them.

If in the REAL WORLD supports cannot be made less than 11% of what can really exist then your simulation is too far out of touch with reality to be relevant.
In the REAL world, NO building's support mass constitutes anywhere close to 11% of what they support. More important, your claim that abstractions are automatically invalid on the basis that they can't really exist is bull**** on the face of it. That's what abstractions ARE.

Unless you think simulations are more important than reality.
I think simulations need to accurately capture the mechanics of the system being modeled in order to give an accurate result. So does everyone who actually does simulations instead of just TALKING about them like you do.

I also understand the concepts of abstraction, idealization and simplification, and do not for a moment entertain the absurd notion that the model system needs to "physically resemble" the appearance, construction, materials or any of that. It needs to correctly capture density, stiffness, plastic response, mediation of forces, conservation of momentum and energy, etc. The degree it accurately reflects material properties, geometry, constraints on motion, external factors, and so on dictates how accurate or applicable it is.

That's what an analytical or computational model is. They are not physical models. Abstractions only need give mechanically correct results. No formula or calculation is "made of" the material it models -- it's a calculation, for god's sakes!

Your objections are groundless.
 
Didn't you say the simulations did the same thing whether the supports had mass or not?
Yes. Many many times. By "same thing" I mean at worst a few percent difference in some physical quantity and best no difference at all, depending on the particular submodel.

How much mass did you give the supports in terms of percentage of what was being supported?
More than one type of model was examined. The most extreme case is ALL OF THE MASS IN THE COLUMNS. That good enough for you?

That was not a slab model, it was a continuum model of the sort used by Bazant, Seffen, Cherepanov, etc. Completely different model, nearly the same result. The other less extreme cases used a number (generally 3 to 5) of masses distributed evenly in the vertical direction between story slabs and "barely" supported by the story below. These ranged as high as approximately 1/3 of the associated story mass. The purpose was to approximate a more continuous distribution, accounting for not only column mass but also building contents.

I think it suffices to note that Bazant's analytical model, which uses a continuous mass distribution, very closely matches the result of a point mass model with massless connections (of which your Python program is a special case - no failure energy). The biggest difference is this:

Individual impacts within the discrete model which are slightly jaggy versus the smooth evolution of a continuum model.

Over the course of an individual story, these differences are noticeable, but not so when looking at the overall curves. Both models, as radically different as they are, converge on g/3 acceleration and give collapse times within 0.2s of each other when configured with the same parameters. There are analytical reasons why this is true - question #5 above asks you if you want to go over these.
 
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Ummm, Kat... You have provided an amazing amount of information. Solidly based in scientific method and practice... at some point you have to realize that some are emotionally attached to their ideas... or incapable of saying they are wrong...
I think there's some value in showing the stark contrast. Some people like this are heroes or nearly so to others. Just believing some of the objections are correct is an abomination to all the subject of physics represents, and that's not hyperbole.

I don't expect this argument to be conceded - ever. I can hope, like I said above. However, this is the first time the question has ever been examined in one place. All of this has been explained many times, but it's been scattered among and within numerous threads. Basically, no matter where I speak, no matter what I say, psikeyhackr's retort is always to TRY to minimize my credibility by throwing out mocking one-liners about ONE simulation out of thousands, using THREE (count 'em) absurd objections.

This leads to endless cyclical repetition, which I've tried to spice up by paraphasing, attacking from different angles, expounding, etc. Much easier for psikeyhackr to copy and paste one sentence he pulled out of... somewhere... than to provide page after page of detailed, well-substantiated and erudite refutation.

I've already proven psikeyhackr wrong on these three petty distractions more times than I can count. Now, I can point to ONE place where the issue is resolved to any reasonable person's satisfaction. Unreasonable people? Too bad for them.
 
I think there's some value in showing the stark contrast. Some people like this are heroes or nearly so to others. Just believing some of the objections are correct is an abomination to all the subject of physics represents, and that's not hyperbole.

I don't expect this argument to be conceded - ever. I can hope, like I said above. However, this is the first time the question has ever been examined in one place. All of this has been explained many times, but it's been scattered among and within numerous threads. Basically, no matter where I speak, no matter what I say, psikeyhackr's retort is always to TRY to minimize my credibility by throwing out mocking one-liners about ONE simulation out of thousands, using THREE (count 'em) absurd objections.

This leads to endless cyclical repetition, which I've tried to spice up by paraphasing, attacking from different angles, expounding, etc. Much easier for psikeyhackr to copy and paste one sentence he pulled out of... somewhere... than to provide page after page of detailed, well-substantiated and erudite refutation.

I've already proven psikeyhackr wrong on these three petty distractions more times than I can count. Now, I can point to ONE place where the issue is resolved to any reasonable person's satisfaction. Unreasonable people? Too bad for them.

Oh trust me, I see the method to responding to the madness.

Also the reason I started my thread on motive means and opportunity.. though life got a little crazy and I haven't had time to get back and flesh it out.

I, for one, got a lot out of it. Thank you for taking the time...
 
You just think that you can define and control the debate but still expect participation.

The reason why I'm being prissy about staying on topic is because the topic is very simple:

I say massless connections are valid to use within the model (to be specified) because the difference in results between connections with and without mass isn't significant.
Am I right or wrong?

Anythng that strays away from deciding the truth of this clearly-described claim is off topic and can be discussed elsewhere. I expect participation because you've mocked me for years, no matter the subject, on the matter of this very thread topic. This is a **** or get off the pot challenge. THIS topic is a distraction in EVERY OTHER thread it appears, but you can't ****ing stay on topic in THIS thread?

psikeyhackr said:
More like the ridiculousness of using massless COMPRESSION connections to say something relevant about a problem involving 400,000 tons.

From the original post:

me said:
6) and this is important: this thread is NOT the place to debate the validity of the 1D model in question for academic or simulation purposes, it's ONLY to discuss whether it's valid to utilize massless connections/supports with THAT model. I know this model doesn't simulate the towers, that's not the issue.
Did you miss that?
 
It's time you realize that a model with massless connections is EXACTLY like your Python program, only better.

Instead of "magic connections" which hold the "floor" in place until collision, I have "massless connections" which can mimic the properties relevant to the CAPACITY/FORCE a support provides, both static and dynamic. The mass property is ignored because it adds virtually nothing to the problem, except needless complexity and computational expense.

These connections do not simply disappear on contact between slabs, they provide whatever force versus distance function I give them. They can mimic ANY of the axial failure modes of steel columns or Doug fir 2x2s and a whole lot more than that. ANY load-displacement response you can conceive of in 1D.

That's a huge ****ing improvement over "magic" connections.

That's not the only superior characteristic. My connections can reach full compaction at any variable height desired. Your "floors"? Points as you say; ZERO height. How real is that?

Did stories really descend a full 3.7m before hitting anything? No. Did stories really compact to zero height? Noooo (these are rhetorical questions). Find a support - or entire story! - which crushes down to nothing, a black hole. Are you saying a model with black holes in it is supposed to have anything to do with building collapses?

Your complaints are equally absurd. The sooner you recognize that fact, the sooner you'll be able to improve your Python program to be less unphysical.

--------------------------------------------------

What's better, "magic" or "massless"?

QED. Again.
 
KD
I really like your posts. Your explanations are easy to follow. Thanks for taking on the task in such a professional manner.
 
Masses vibrating on massless springs is ubiquitous in textbooks and articles.

I can replace "1kg" in the program with "10000kg" with four keystrokes. [/b]

But will your simulator make them vibrate same high frequencies?

Notice that tweeters do tend to have smaller and lighter cones than woofers. Reality cannot give a damn what is in books. The books are supposed to correspond to reality. So are simulations. But that means putting in data sufficiently similar to reality. The real collapse we are discussing involves hundreds of thousands of kilograms, not one.

You said the behavior was the same whether the spring was massless or not. What was the weight of the load in the comparisons you made?

psik
 
But will your simulator make them vibrate same high frequencies?
The frequency of a harmonic oscillator is proportional to sqrt(k/m), so only increasing m reduces the frequency. However, the spring constant k must also increase to support the mass while maintaining the same material modulus. These are not high frequencies. Vibration is a second-order effect of no interest and no effect on the translational results.

Notice that tweeters do tend to have smaller and lighter cones than woofers.
Correct.

Reality cannot give a damn what is in books.
And this has what to do with what?

The books are supposed to correspond to reality.
Physical science books do. There's been an ongoing cycle of experiment and analysis involving millions of people over hundreds of years. You act like this is about beard-scratchers in ivory towers not paying attention to reality. This is F=ma! This is very basic stuff. This is not in dispute by anyone except perhaps you.

So are simulations.
Simulation is a broad field based in well-established physical laws which are not in question. However, it is unlike textbooks in that its APPLICATION is filled with hazard. It is MUCH easier to make a ****ed up simulation than a good one. But a good one is a good one.

But that means putting in data sufficiently similar to reality.
Not really.

The real collapse we are discussing involves hundreds of thousands of kilograms, not one.
Oh, just stop with this crap. How much do your washers weigh? More or less than 1kg?

You said the behavior was the same whether the spring was massless or not. What was the weight of the load in the comparisons you made?
I'm sure the majority were unit masses - 1kg. Ever since I discovered that multiplying numerator and denominator by the same number is the same as doing nothing, I've skipped that step.
 
There are 13 questions you haven't touched listed on the previous page and at least a half dozen more since. For someone with such a big gripe, you can't seem to articulate it. I tried to help you focus by asking questions that will force you into understanding, but they won't help if you don't try.

If it were true that 1kg masses are a bad thing in a model because they're too small, your washers are worse. Period.

So it isn't about that, and it's WAY past giving it a rest. Can you focus on the topic - massless connections?
 
But that means putting in data sufficiently similar to reality.
Above, I answered "not really" and I expect that you'll take exception to that. You and I don't have the same definition of "sufficiently similar to reality." If we did, I would've agreed with your statement.

You consider:
1) washers sufficiently similar to reality (mass of an entire story)
2) vibration-free collisions sufficiently similar to reality (tower collapses were loud, lots of vibration)
3) paper loops sufficiently similar to reality (steel columns)
4) a ~0.8" loop support height sufficiently similar to reality (3.7m)
5) mathematical points as "levels" sufficiently similar to reality (typically 63.5m W x 3.7m H)
6) 1D simulation sufficiently similar to reality (3D)

You do NOT consider:
7) massless connections sufficiently similar to reality (~100:1 mass ratio load:column weight)
8) 1kg "story" mass sufficiently similar to reality (closer than washers, see #1)
9) vibration in collision sufficiently similar to reality (closer than your Python program, see #2)

The first list is very telling. It says beyond a shadow of doubt that you accept these six HIGHLY unrealistic model characteristics without batting an eyelash. You designed and implemented physical and software models having one or more of these traits. Therefore, your statement - which you made without any qualifications - is something even you don't strictly agree with.

It turns out you DO know what abstractions are and make use of them yourself whether or not they have any resemblance to reality at all. You just have a BIG problem with mine, even though two of mine are closer to reality than yours. Very ****ing interesting.


I agree with you on 1,2,5 and 6 without reservation. #3 is a crucial disagreement. Paper loops are not sufficiently similar to steel columns and are the reason your model arrests and always will. The difference is in the load-displacement response of paper loops, which can be as weak as possible statically and still inevitably cause arrest. #4 is a judgement call; I believe a structure could be built using the short story height of your physical model, but it would be an engineering marvel. The twin towers were an engineering marvel - capturing the dynamics of their collapse in a crotch-high model would be all the more an engineering marvel!

Items 7-9 represent the sum total of arguments against everything I say which you've managed to muster over the last several years. Obviously, I accept these three as sufficiently similar to reality because I designed and implemented software models having one or more of these traits. I should not have to argue #8 and #9 because, in both cases as noted in the lists, they are CLOSER to reality than YOURS.

That leaves #7 - the topic of this thread.
 
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