Are liberals allies to socialism?

[Master Debator]

Is the issue that you don’t know what “means of production” are?

The issue is I don't know what you're asking. The police and courts produce justice by arresting and prosecuting criminals. In this sense the police and courts are the means of production but I thought that was fairly obvious so I assumed you were confused by what they actually produce. My bad.

 

[Chomsky]

I think you misunderstand me. Unless I am misunderstanding you, the part you bolded completely agrees with your post. Social democrats are capitalists that believe a regulated market economy with a robust welfare state is the best system for achieving a just and equal society.

My point is that socialists are also primarily concerned with structuring society to produce equality and social justice, but disagree with social democrats as to what systems actually produce those outcomes.

Yeah, that generally is the crux of the issue isn't it. What I would ask you is why you believe a handful of people should have control of nearly our entire economy? If you support the democratization of our political structures, why not our economic structures as well?

By the bolded, are you speaking to captains & chieftains of industry having a heightened sway over society? If so, I'm not happy with that but realize a certain amount is unavoidable.

I believe capitalism fosters individual meritocracy. I believe that provides the optimum incentive for individuals to succeed, and by that also moving society forward.

We have to find balance between that providing equal opportunity, along with a support base for those that for whatever reason are not as competitive.

So I see the democratization of governance as fostering an economy that allows us fair individual & meritocratic expression, as I believe tempered meritocracy is more efficient than forced egalitarianism in moving society forward materially.

 

[brianpatrick]

As someone who considers himself a Social Democrat (as can be seen in my avatar sig), I think I disagree with that I bolded.

Social Democrats adhere to capitalism, they just want to practiced it with due social restraint. The main difference between Socialists and Social Democrats, is the economic means of production. As capitalists, Social Democrats - in classical textbook definition - would never preclude the economic means of production from private individuals. Whereas Socialists, as we know, remove the means of economic production from individuals. And this last, of course, is what freaks so many out (rightfully so!).

I believe "Democratic Socialists" might be the term for the attributes you're describing. Democratic Socialists, which unlike Social Democrats are indeed an offshoot of pure Socialism, differ by preferring a Democratic governance while keeping a Socialist economy. They, as you described, see Socialism as the goal - realizing they can't get there in one fell swoop.

 

[vanceen]

They all would fall in line with the definition of the word as you so generously noted above.

Do you mean the word "socialism"? If so, no, they don't. Socialism is the common ownership of the means of economic production.

 

[Master Debator]

Do you mean the word "socialism"? If so, no, they don't. Socialism is the common ownership of the means of economic production.

And public utilities and services certainly seem to fit within that description.

 

[Questerr]

And public utilities and services certainly seem to fit within that description.

Except they don’t.

 

[Master Debator]

Except they don’t.

Well that's one hell of an argument. I'm convinced.

 

[Tettsuo]

Do you mean the word "socialism"? If so, no, they don't. Socialism is the common ownership of the means of economic production.

How about you simply post the definition you're using?

 

[Master Debator]

How about you simply post the definition you're using?

To be fair to him he has. He just can't seem to explain why public services and utilities don't fit his definition.

 

[vanceen]

How about you simply post the definition you're using?

It's in the post you replied to.

 

[vanceen]

To be fair to him he has. He just can't seem to explain why public services and utilities don't fit his definition.

Public utilities would if they are publicly owned. Most utilities are privately owned and heavily regulated.

Why so grumpy today?

 

[Tettsuo]

It's in the post you replied to.

I noticed you added a word to the definition. Economic (production). Why?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

so·cial·ism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2
a
: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b
: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

 

[Questerr]

The issue is I don't know what you're asking. The police and courts produce justice by arresting and prosecuting criminals. In this sense the police and courts are the means of production but I thought that was fairly obvious so I assumed you were confused by what they actually produce. My bad.

Justice is a PUBLIC GOOD. The market can’t and won’t produce it. The same with national defense.

Do you know what Public Good’s are and why they aren’t part of the Means of Production?

 

[Tettsuo]

Public utilities would if they are publicly owned. Most utilities are privately owned and heavily regulated.

Why so grumpy today?

Why are you dodging? Why doesn't it fit your definition?

Public services don't necessarily have to be public, in fact, they weren't in the past (or the present for some). Even today, you can hire a private security team.

 

[vanceen]

I noticed you added a word to the definition. Economic (production). Why?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

I actually didn't start with Webster. But socialism is an economic model, whether it's in Webster's definition or not.

If you want to call police and fire departments socialist, knock yourself out. It's fine with me. Some people call welfare socialist. I can't stop them either.

But the historical and formal definition of socialism refers to an economy in which private ownership of means of production is replaced by common or state ownership.

 

[Questerr]

Why are you dodging? Why doesn't it fit your definition?

Public services don't necessarily have to be public, in fact, they weren't in the past (or the present for some). Even today, you can hire a private security team.

A private security team does NOT provide justice and can’t do the same job as police.

 

[Tettsuo]

Justice is a PUBLIC GOOD. The market can’t and won’t produce it. The same with national defense.

Do you know what Public Good’s are and why they aren’t part of the Means of Production?

Not true. You're currently operating with a standard that wasn't and isn't always so. We have a business that operates privately for security, much like the police. In fact, Black Water operated as a sudo-military force around the world and is very profitable.

 

[vanceen]

Why are you dodging? Why doesn't it fit your definition?

I don't know what you're talking about. I just said it did.

Public services don't necessarily have to be public, in fact, they weren't in the past (or the present for some). Even today, you can hire a private security team.

And? Some services are administered by the government, some are administered privately. My point was that just because something is adminstered by the government doesn't make it socialism.

 

[Master Debator]

Public utilities would if they are publicly owned. Most utilities are privately owned and heavily regulated.

Public utilities that are publicly owned is socialism. Public utilities that are privately owned is socialism for corporations. Where are you confused?

Why so grumpy today?

You may fantasize about my mood all you like but that's all it is, literally. You are literally fantasizing about me.

 

[Master Debator]

Justice is a PUBLIC GOOD. The market can’t and won’t produce it. The same with national defense.

There is no reason the market couldn't produce justice, it would just be limited those who could afford it.

Do you know what Public Good’s are and why they aren’t part of the Means of Production?

Do you have an argument you'd like to make or do you prefer to stick with the appearance of one?

 

[Tettsuo]

A private security team does NOT provide justice and can’t do the same job as police.

What is justice without the socialist court system to define it? What's stopping us from having a separate court system that caters to specific neighborhoods or cities that doles out "justice" to the highest bidder? There are no rules that demand we have these public services if we have a society.

What we did as a society is deem that certain systems will not be run privately. We will pay these costs socially so it operates for all of us evenly and not for profit. That was a choice.

 

[vanceen]

Public utilities that are publicly owned is socialism. Public utilities that are privately owned is socialism for corporations. Where are you confused?


You may fantasize about my mood all you like but it that's all it is, literally. You are literally fantasizing about me.

I'm not confused at all. We agree that state owned public utilities are socialist. As for privately owned utilites being "socialism for corporations", generally we don't agree.

You seem to want to argue about something. I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Tettsuo]

And? Some services are administered by the government, some are administered privately. My point was that just because something is adminstered by the government doesn't make it socialism.

... that's exactly what it means. Government controls the means of production.

 

[Master Debator]

I'm not confused at all. We agree that state owned public utilities are socialist. As for privately owned utilites being "socialism for corporations", generally we don't agree.

You seem to want to argue about something. I'm not sure what it is.

My argument wasn't only confined to public utilities it was also public services such as police, courts, firefighters, the post office, the military, public education, social security.... and you pretending to not know what the argument is is weak.

 

[Questerr]

Not true. You're currently operating with a standard that wasn't and isn't always so. We have a business that operates privately for security, much like the police. In fact, Black Water operated as a sudo-military force around the world and is very profitable.

Black water does not and never has provided national defense. Private security is not justice and doesn’t have the same powers as police.

Do you know what a Public Good is?