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You just keep on ignoring the fact that people who cannot get work will require welfare. A society that does not match jobs to education will have large numbers unemployed and they will require welfare. Welfare is not what people aspire to. Not everyone is going to become engineers, we would not have enough of those jobs available to meet that demand. Germany has a 2 track system, higher academic track AND a vocational track. They protect their industries, they don't allow cheap foreign products in undercutting their industrial base. We do not do that, we allow corporations to do want they want. When you do this, you will have what we have, large numbers of underutilized workers. I believe one the biggest reasons we don't have kids interested in learning is because they see that it does not have a future. They see their parents not getting ahead, not increasing their REAL economic standing. Again, I am going back to economic mobility....the subject you keep avoiding. You cannot have economic mobility when the middle steps are being removed.I missed it Gimme, sorry.
Welfare has only recently been reformed. It's much better now than it used to be, but the bones of creating dependency aren't gone -- either in the system or in the mindset of people who see it as an entitlement and means to an end.
You say I want to blame the victim. No. I want to blame the system that created the victim: a failing school system and a welfare system, only recently somewhat reformed, that makes getting on the dole a job objective.
I am also not talking specifically about blacks. I'm talking about all inner-city poor.
you nailed it. that is my positionYes, but why don't they want to be in school?
The problem is that some people think that when a kid "doesn't want to be in school", then that's the end of the conversation. In other words, if they don't want to be in school, then there isn't anything that can be done to help them succeed.
what does one do to make someone who does not want to attend school suddenly desire to attend schoolThe problem with that line of thinking is that it doesn't consider the questions, "can a school practically do anything to make a student want to be there?"
i agree. students who are more inclined to be tradesmen instead of attending a four-year college would be more inclined to attend classes where trades skills were taught. but recognize, those students WANT to attend to learn something. this is not true for that student - and unfortunately, they comprise a large number of the 30% dropouts - who simply has no interest in learning. no desire to attend school. no desire to elevate their degree of ignorance... and "do certain schools do more to interest students more than others?"
as you can see, i do not agreeThe answer to both of those questions is "yes".
i cannot meet your test. no one can. you would always be able to assert that there is another option available to somehow motivate that unmotivated kidSo unless you can show that all "uninterested" students in poorly performing schools cannot be "made interested" in a practical, cost effective manner in the similar ways to how highly performing schools tend to interest their students, then whether or not students are "interested" is just another obstacle that CERTAIN (usually poor and minority) schools have failed to address.
Anyone who has participated in construction has worked in plumbing, if you were in that trade for any length of time would know that. The formalized certification requirement is not much when you already have had hands-on experience. Any shortage of plumbers is simply a matter of certification because those who have the skills set right now are in great numbers. Again, it is a BS point.:doh "plumber" =/= "construction". You may be interested in reading up, as you apparently have no idea what you are talking about.
More BS. The middle class jobs have been hit tremendouslyyou are right. especially since these things are not occurring.
US society is splitting in two on ECONOMIC LEVELS.....not because of "behavior"..what is occurring is that American society is bifurcating. let me know when you are willing to actually look at the stats rather than simply ranting.
You just keep on ignoring the fact that people who cannot get work will require welfare. A society that does not match jobs to education will have large numbers unemployed and they will require welfare. Welfare is not what people aspire to. Not everyone is going to become engineers, we would not have enough of those jobs available to meet that demand. Germany has a 2 track system, higher academic track AND a vocational track. They protect their industries, they don't allow cheap foreign products in undercutting their industrial base. We do not do that, we allow corporations to do want they want. When you do this, you will have what we have, large numbers of underutilized workers. I believe one the biggest reasons we don't have kids interested in learning is because they see that it does not have a future. They see their parents not getting ahead, not increasing their REAL economic standing. Again, I am going back to economic mobility....the subject you keep avoiding. You cannot have economic mobility when the middle steps are being removed.
Ah, yes, Here we agree. (I love common ground.) In the matter we're discussing, elected representatives made a decision not to support PP. If my elected representatives make a decision to cut the military budget...or increase the military budget...then that's the way it is. This was done by a vote of Congress. Not Maggie sittin' around grumping about how my tax dollars are spent.
What does having the opinion that welfare programs that in the past have offered a handout instead of a hand up is just another form of marginalizing and figuratively enslaving black people have to do with hating them?
Anyone who has participated in construction has worked in plumbing, if you were in that trade for any length of time would know that. The formalized certification requirement is not much when you already have had hands-on experience. Any shortage of plumbers is simply a matter of certification because those who have the skills set right now are in great numbers.
More BS. The middle class jobs have been hit tremendouslyUS society is splitting in two on ECONOMIC LEVELS.....not because of "behavior".
I am not going to say all black men are brainwashed but many of them are conditioned to think that all or most whites are racists and out to get them. Also anyone, white or black or otherwise (and their are plenty) who mindlessly follow Sharpton and Jackson's racist asses cannot think for themselves.
Where did I say anything about "striking down" anything? What a totally dishonest inference. You take a 2009 article that speculates on projected "shortages" when new construction is at an all time low.what a fascinating claim. can you provide evidence to back it up? if so, allow me to join you in the effort to strike down state certification limitations.
Ah, I see.....the "actual destruction of wealth in this nation", "right now", is being caused by "divorce"......not the Bush recession, not the real decline in household wealth caused by the housing bust.....not the evaporation of large numbers of good paying middle income jobs...it is really all about "divorce".no, the inability of our public education to adequately equip our middle-performers for an employment atmosphere marked by accelerating change is indeed one of our key problems, but when you are talking about the actual destruction of wealth in this nation and the bifurcation of society, you are talking about trends that (at least, right now) are definitely being driven primarily by behavioral forces. Divorce being the biggest. You can divide Americans into the people who have gotten and stayed married and those who have gotten divorced one or more times and/or are currently not married (especially to the other parent of their children), and you will have as neatly divided America into it's upper and lower income halves as any other measure available.
No more or less than people who think war is destructive should be forced to fund the gigantic military complex or foreign invasions with their tax dollar. If everyone get to decide what every cent of their tax dollar will or will not fund, many of the things essential to the country wouldn't get funded.
It has to do with the thinking that blacks who take "hands out" are slaves, like being "enslaved". See the offensiveness in that yet? If that's what you think being "enslaved" is, you need to take a history lesson. Welfare is available in almost all advanced western economy, people don't call those who need it "enslaved". And who marginalise them? The people who put out the message that they are lazy, scheming, brainwashed addicts.
You want to talk about brainwashed, where did the "hand out not hand up" come from? The conservative establishment does a good job of keeping its flock in tune with the conservative mentra.
you want me to prove a negative? no - you argued a positive claim: that the GOP wants to "shut down PP". So far all you have provided evidence of is Republicans saying they don't want to give taxpayer dollars to PP; which is fine. We don't give taxpayer dollars to lots of organizations that sell goods or services. Sam Adams brewery, for example.
I could certainly see your point if you wished to make it that many conservatives wish to (in most cases) end abortion. But, as you yourself point out, PP =/= abortion.
Ah, yes, Here we agree. (I love common ground.) In the matter we're discussing, elected representatives made a decision not to support PP. If my elected representatives make a decision to cut the military budget...or increase the military budget...then that's the way it is. This was done by a vote of Congress. Not Maggie sittin' around grumping about how my tax dollars are spent.
Not all, just the ones who vote republican...
It is not "strange" at all, you decided to equate welfare for blacks with being a slave, and then you complain about racism being brought up. It is so dishonest.You have a very strange take. But not so different than people who see racism behind every bush.
No, you mean the one's who vote Democrat...
Well, what party is responsible for enslaving blacks within our welfare system? Which party made sure they got a hand out instead of a hand up? And which party has tried the hardest to reform that system?
not at all - that people become addicted to easy, free government handouts is precisely a portion of the conservative argument here.
I realize that not all addictions are a choice, but there is no circumstance that I can imagine where someone goes "I have to go get that welfare payment or else I will go through horrible levels of shame/dispair/depression, whatever"
Yeah, your example works in cases of things like sexual fetishes, ptsd, or whatever
I've already told you that I was going to go back edit it to "many black men." But you don't want to hear that. You want to call me out in a post.
My vote is "No," by the way.
Politically the US black population is essentially monolithic, far more so than any other demographic. I expect that's where the idea of brainwashing comes from.
Just click on the arrow next to her name in her post in the OP to see the context of the quote.Alright, MaggieD, I know you have some conservative views some of which go alittle outside the social norms, but I attribute that moreso to lack of exposure to many facets of life outside of the Chicagoland area than I do racial tendencies. Therefore, before responding I would like to know what brought on the "(many) black men are brainwashed" statement in the first place? Was this a general statement or were you addressing a specific issue? What exactly as we suppose to be brainwashed about? Point me to the thread/article/statement/reference source in question so that Black men can digest the contents and judge for ourselves the merits of your pychological assessment of us.
Did you read Blackdog's posts at #43?
All/many/most makes a huge difference.
I have not suggested that black men are more susceptible to brainwashing. I'm saying the messages they often get are messages of victimology.
Monolithic? In other words, what you're really trying to say is we all think and act alike. As such, we must vote alike, right? Is that your assessment of African American behavior and/or pyschology? What brings you to such a conclusion? Moreover, what makes you an expert of African American behavior to project such a narrow viewpoint on people of this ethic group? Are you Black? Have you taken a course in African American studies? What qualifies your statement?
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