Appeals court denies Michael Flynn and Justice Department's effort to end his case

[Athanasius68]

You confuse the different stages of the investigation. The red flag which led to the interview was what Pence and the Press Secretary said in public which contradicted the information the FBI agents had about the conversation between Flynn and the Russian ambassador. And that red flag was about the talks around the sanctions. Pence claimed that Flynn told him that he never discussed sanctions with the Russian ambassador, and the FBI knew that Flynn DID discuss sanctions with the Russian ambassador. So, either Flynn "forgot" or he really forgot. So, the FBI had to investigate what was it!

So maybe Pence lied. Or misunderstood what Flynn told him.
In any event, lying to the VP is not a crime. Nor is it a counter-intelligence threat when the FBI knows what was said and the director of the FBI said it wasn't an issue.

You mean Flynn. When I am talking with a Russian ambassador who mentions the US sanctions on Russian intelligence agencies and when I am talking about the expulsions of Russians which the Obama adminstration suspected to be Russian agents, then If I answer a question by saying that the conversation I had with the Russian ambassador was not about the sanctions, I am lying.

Obama expels 35 Russian diplomats in retaliation for US election hacking | Obama administration | The Guardian

“I have issued an executive order that provides additional authority for responding to certain cyber activity that seeks to interfere with or undermine our election processes and institutions, or those of our allies or partners,” Obama said in the statement, released while he was vacationing with his family in Hawaii.

“Using this new authority, I have sanctioned nine entities and individuals: the GRU and the FSB, two Russian intelligence services; four individual officers of the GRU; and three companies that provided material support to the GRU’s cyber operations

The above, makes it obvious that one cannot pretend that the expulsions of the individuals are different thing from the sanctions!

You are forgetting what this is all about:
Its about a suspicion that Mr. Flynn was a Russian agent who had conspired with a Russian operation against the USA.

No, it did not lead to any such decision. You make things up. They were debating if they should continue or not the investigation when they heard the public comments by the press Secretary and Pence asserting that Flynn told them that he did not discuss sanctions wiht the Russian ambassador. JUST this piece of NEW evidence was enough to justify investigating if and why Flynn chose to misrepresent the conversation to Pence. And even if the case had been closed, JUST this piece of NEW at the time evidence, could be enough to reopen the case! And again, not even Barr dares to say in his motion to dismiss the case that talking about the expulsions of Russian intelligence (GRU) officials is not the same with talking about the sactions that the Obama administration imposed on the Russian intelligence services (GRU)!

As above-- the FBI wouldn't know what Flynn told Pence.
The assumption was that Flynn lied because the assumption was that Flynn was a Russian agent who had played a role in a conspiracy between the campaign and Russia.
That's what drove the decision making. At best.

 

[Athanasius68]

Self appointed no less.

Immediately after becoming director of Defense Intelligence Agency in 2012 and getting his 3rd star Flynn established contact with Sergie Kislyak the Russian ambassador who Flynn lied about when Flynn was national security adviser and also during the 2016 campaign and the hiatus between the election and inauguration lied about.

When Flynn was director of DIA he became the first US military officer admitted inside the GRU headquarters where he gave a speech on leadership and invited GRU chiefs to Washington and to the DIA while also trying to make a second trip to GRU that Pentagon denied authorization for and also cancelled the invitation to GRU chiefs. At the Pentagon the 4-star chief of Army security and intelligence began to wonder about Flynn's "capacity for linear thinking."

Flynn built his career as an exceptional officer of tactical intelligence -- intelligence based targeting in particular -- but Flynn got to Washington by putting his name, and rank, to a critical study of military intelligence written by two lieutenant colonels who simply had to bite the bullet about being listed as co-contributors.

At DIA Flynn's command staff revealed after his firing they'd have to spend an hour after each meeting trying to figure out what Flynn said. The officers said Flynn would say to go on a given matter then 5 minutes later it was a no-go and 5 minutes after that is was a maybe leaning each way. Flynn's chosen deputy was canned with Flynn besides in a single swoop bustup of a high military command rarely seen.



This is the assessment of Flynn's career and Flynn's association with Trump and the courts offered by John Schindler, a former Naval intelligence officer, a NSA former counter intelligence analyst and professor of Military Intelligence at the Naval War College:






You guys want to stick up for a crackpot loon you are free to do that of course. You've been doing it all along for Trump so why not Flynn too.

Nobody is defending Flynn for the sake of Flynn.
People are objecting to the assertion that he was a Russian agent who played a role in a 2016 conspiracy between Russia and the Trump campaign.

 

[Tangmo]

Nobody is defending Flynn for the sake of Flynn.
People are objecting to the assertion that he was a Russian agent who played a role in a 2016 conspiracy between Russia and the Trump campaign.

I said in my post you are responding to that Flynn was self appointed to promote the interests of Russia in the Trump 2016 campaign for Potus and, subsequently, once Trump became president elect then became potus.

Self appointed.

Additionally, my post makes the material point Flynn is an idiot. A very useful one indeed.



Michael Flynn Writes Column Confirming He Is Definitely Insane

For several years, the national-security community has been wondering what the hell happened to Michael Flynn. Flynn has written an op-ed, headlined “Forces of Evil Want to Steal Our Freedom in the Dark of Night, But God Stands With Us,” that resolves the question. How to judge this op-ed? It is difficult to evaluate without knowing whether Flynn’s objective was to advance a policy agenda or to help his legal team plant an insanity defense. The column is easier to understand if you read it in the voice of Colonel Jack D. Ripper, the deranged right-wing general in Dr. Strangelove.


A few passages give the Ripper-esque flavor of his analysis: "Once again, tyranny and treachery are in our midst, and although we feel we’ve descended into a hellish state of existence, we must never forget, hell is conquerable. The idea or notion of a heaven on Earth is the very real sense of being free. Freedom is oxygen. Like the air we breathe that keeps our lungs full and our hearts beating, the celestial feeling of freedom brings a sense of peace to our souls. As long as we accept God in the lifeblood of our nation, we will be OK. If we don’t, we will face a hellish existence."

Michael Flynn Writes Op-ed Confirming He’s Definitely Insane

Flynn's precious essence as we see it above revealed itself in Western Journal in June. Wherever Western Journal is out there in the United States. We also begin to see how important Michael Flynn is to Trump's base of Christian fundamentalist loons.

 

[Athanasius68]

I said in my post you are responding to that Flynn was self appointed to promote the interests of Russia in the Trump 2016 campaign for Potus and, subsequently, once Trump became president elect then became potus.

Self appointed.

Additionally, my post makes the material point Flynn is an idiot. A very useful one indeed.



Michael Flynn Writes Column Confirming He Is Definitely Insane




Flynn's precious essence as we see it above revealed itself in Western Journal in June. Wherever Western Journal is out there in the United States. We also begin to see how important Michael Flynn is to Trump's base of Christian fundamentalist loons.

That is certainly a nice political opinion of Flynn.
Maybe its true.
But it certainly is no basis for thinking Flynn was a Russian agent and using the surveillance and investigatory powers of the USA against him.

 

[Tangmo]

That is certainly a nice political opinion of Flynn.
Maybe its true.
But it certainly is no basis for thinking Flynn was a Russian agent and using the surveillance and investigatory powers of the USA against him.

Self appointed.

The idiot Flynn.

As useful as ever to Putin and His Boyz.


I anyway thought you would never get there so thx at last.

Here's a taste of the case you as a PutinTrump Rower still won't acknowledge even after you read it.



In 2013, while Flynn was the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, he took a delegation to Moscow “to speak to a group of officers from the G.R.U., Russia’s intelligence agency, about leadership development.” Although the C.I.A.’s chief of Russia operations at the time voiced concerns and skepticism about this controversial trip, Flynn told The Washington Post that he had a “great trip,” even bragging about being “the first U.S. officer ever allowed inside the headquarters of the G.R.U.”


In February 2014, six months before the Obama administration fired Flynn, he traveled to Cambridge University as the head of D.I.A. to speak at the Cambridge Intelligence Seminar, an organization that soon after was hit with allegations of being open to “unacceptable Russian influence.”


These events did not escape the notice of the U.S. intelligence community, which increasingly grew wary of Flynn’s foreign contacts. C.I.A. and F.B.I. were discussing this episode, along with many others, as they assessed Flynn’s suitability to serve as national security adviser.” Flynn was reportedly bitter and angry when he was eventually pushed out of the D.I.A. in August 2014 and he subsequently became a contributor to RT.



Just a few months before he began advising Donald Trump on his presidential campaign, Flynn was paid $40,000 to give a talk at an RT Gala, where he shared a table with Russian President Vladimir Putin and his chief of staff, Sergei Ivanov. Viktor Vekselberg, who later came under scrutiny for his ties to Wilbur Ross, also attended the event, along with future Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein. Julian Assange appeared at the gala via videotape. Flynn reportedly accepted money from other Russian companies as well, including $11,250 for a speaking engagement for Kaspersky Lab, a Russian cybersecurity company with alleged ties to the Kremlin.



Flynn has also developed a relationship with the Turkish government. In 2015 and 2016, the Flynn Intel Group, which Flynn established after leaving the D.I.A., was hired to lobby on behalf of Turkish interests by Ekim Alptekin, a Turkish businessman with close ties to Kremlin-connected former energy executive Dmitri ‘David’ Zaikin. Flynn’s lobbying on behalf of Turkey represented a reversal; although he had previously criticized Erdoğan, he wrote an op-ed the day of the 2016 election for The Hill that hailed Turkey as the U.S.’ “strongest ally” against ISIS.

Flynn’s pro-Turkish views soon translated into policy implementation, as he later blocked the U.S. plan to arm the Syrian Kurds as part of the United States’ efforts to combat ISIS. This plan had encountered heavy opposition from the Turkish government, which has been in a conflict with Kurds for decades. Flynn’s opposition raised questions about whether his lobbying work was affecting his policy decisions, and whether he was “acting on behalf of a foreign nation.”


The good news is that Flynn the idiot got caught.

The bad news for the Rowers is that there's more....

 

[Tangmo]

That is certainly a nice political opinion of Flynn.
Maybe its true.
But it certainly is no basis for thinking Flynn was a Russian agent and using the surveillance and investigatory powers of the USA against him.

....and as I was saying....



Flynn first met Trump in August 2015, and soon became an active participant in the Trump campaign. In February 2016, Flynn began advising Trump on ”a range of issues,” including foreign policy and national security. As a Trump transition team member, Flynn had numerous contacts with then-Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak; some of these contacts are what he eventually lied to the FBI about, leading to his indictment. In December 2016, Kushner and Flynn met with Kislyak in Trump Tower, reportedly discussing the possibility of establishing back-channel communications between the White House and the Kremlin. On December 29, 2016, Flynn called Kislyak five times to discuss the sanctions the Obama administration had recently implemented against Russia.


Despite the red flags surrounding Flynn, his role within the Trump team only continued to grow. President Obama warned Trump about hiring Flynn as National Security Advisor in November 2016, and Flynn himself disclosed to the Trump transition team that he was under federal investigation due to his previous work lobbying for Turkish interests in January 2017. Nonetheless, he was soon sworn in as a national security adviser in late January 2017. During his short tenure, he worked to push a “Middle East Marshall Plan” to build civilian nuclear power plants with Russia throughout the Middle East, which would have required lifting sanctions on Russia.


Four days after Trump’s inauguration, the FBI interviewed Flynn about his calls with Kislyak. After hearing a readout of Flynn’s interview with the F.B.I., then-acting Attorney General Sally Yates and another senior D.O.J. official warned White House counsel Don McGahn in January 2017 that Flynn’s denial of discussions of sanctions with Kislyak may have been misleading, and that Flynn’s comments made him “vulnerable to Russian blackmail.” On February 13, 2017, Kellyanne Conway said “General Flynn does enjoy the full confidence of the president.” Subsequently, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer told reporters that Trump was “evaluating the situation” around Flynn. Later that evening, Flynn resigned as national security advisor. Flynn only held the job for a total of 24 days.



In March 2017, Flynn retroactively registered as a foreign agent for his work on behalf of Turkish interests during the 2016 presidential campaign. Trump later pressured F.B.I. Director Comey to drop the investigation into Flynn. As the seriousness of his situation came into focus, Flynn reportedly offered to be interviewed by the F.B.I. and congressional committees in exchange for full immunity from prosecution in late March 2017; his request for immunity was later denied. On December 1, 2017, Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the F.B.I. on January 24, 2017, about his conversations with the Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak during the transition period. After appearing in court, Flynn signed a plea agreement indicating his cooperation with Mueller.

On December 4, 2018 the Special Counsel’s office filed a sentencing memo for Flynn, recommending that he receive no jail time given his “substantial assistance” with the investigation.


Indeed Flynn is too stupid to know when he had the best deal he was ever going to get. So Flynn the full blown idiot who's had two major career crashes in only a couple of years got led by the nose into thinking he was going to get sprung from his two pleas of guilty. It is clear Flynn has from the outset thrown himself in completely with PutinTrump & Rowers.

Flynn is the self appointed useful idiot whose tail has been on fire since 2012 when he became the out of place director of DIA which is where Flynn began his tailspin.

 

[pamak]

We all agree that a judge cannot order a prosecutor to prosecute.
The prosecutor wishes to cease prosecution.
As such, there is only one option for Sullivan.

Nope!

The judge can still refuse to have a withdrawal of te plea deal and continue with the penalty. The prosecutor does not have to do anything.
Or as I said numerous times, the judge may let this case dismissed without prejudice which will make the the case eligible for reopening in the future. As such, it is obvious that even though the judge cannot make the prosecutor do anything, the same judge has options other than accepting the dismissal of the case with prejudice as Barr wants which will close it permanently.

 

[pamak]

So maybe Pence lied. Or misunderstood what Flynn told him.
In any event, lying to the VP is not a crime. Nor is it a counter-intelligence threat when the FBI knows what was said and the director of the FBI said it wasn't an issue.

So, because there was a possibility that Pence would have lied to the press, the FBI still needed to investigate what exactly happen. And they interviewed Flynn and he LIED to the FBI TOO! So, anybody who tries to argue that the FBI interviewers lied, Pence, lied, McFarland (who discussed with Flynn the content of the conversation) lied, Priebus lied, etc, is a partisan hack who insists on defending Flynn by insulting people's intelligence!

ou are forgetting what this is all about:
Its about a suspicion that Mr. Flynn was a Russian agent who had conspired with a Russian operation against the USA.

I am not forgetting anything!

Do not try to change the conversation to the BS you want to talk! Whatever previous reasons existed for OPENING an investigating for Flynn (which even the IG found legitimate) it change NOTHING about the reasons to NOT close the case and about the reasons to interview him after the public statements which showed that Pence was telling things about Flynn's conversations with the Russian ambassador that did not match the FBI transcript of those conversations!

It is CLEAR that sanctions and expulsions cannot be separated. I provided the facts to show it. Even Obama's EO talks about sanctioning certain individuals! So, either you address what I presented to defend your position that expulsion talks must be seen as a separate issue from sanction talks, or admit that you have nothing to counter what I say.

As above-- the FBI wouldn't know what Flynn told Pence.
The assumption was that Flynn lied because the assumption was that Flynn was a Russian agent who had played a role in a conspiracy between the campaign and Russia.
That's what drove the decision making. At best.

As I said, the fact that the FBI did not know what exactly was happening was EXACTLY the reason why they could not close Flynn's case and why they HAD to investigate why there was such inconsistency between what Pence claimed that Flynn told him about the conversation and the transcript of Flynn's conversation. So, the interview with Flynn was perfectly justified and the moment Flynn chose to ALSO lie to the FBI, it was game over!

And Flynn's lie became very obvious and beyond reasonable doubt after Mueller interviewed under oath numerous people near Trump which made it clear that Flynn had discussed with them the conversations he had with Flynn and did mention to them that he discussed the sanctions with the Russian ambassador. This means that Flynn's omission to tell this to the FBI when they asked him about it was NOT a case of forgetting it. Thus, it is pretty clear that Flynn lied to the FBI.

 

[Athanasius68]

S

o, because there was a possibility that Pence would have lied to the press, the FBI still needed to investigate what exactly happen

.

Why? Its not illegal to lie to the VP.

And they interviewed Flynn and he LIED to the FBI TOO! So, anybody who tries to argue that the FBI interviewers lied, Pence, lied, McFarland (who discussed with Flynn the content of the conversation) lied, Priebus lied, etc, is a partisan hack who insists on defending Flynn by insulting people's intelligence!

I didn't say they all lied. I said that Flynn spoke about expulsions.

Do not try to change the conversation to the BS you want to talk!

Its not BS at all. Its the entire enchilada. A recommendation that Russia not overreact to the expulsion of a few dozen of its diplomats is entirely reasonable and unobjectionable. But as Flynn was being investigated for being a Russian agent, it matters that he was talking about expulsions and not about quid pro quos with Russian oiigarchs. Because the actual conversation doesn't lend itself to an allegation that Flynn is a Russian spy.

As I said, the fact that the FBI did not know what exactly was happening

They did know exactly what was happening because they had the transcript-- a transcript which Comey said was of no criminal or national security concern.

And Flynn's lie became very obvious and beyond reasonable doubt after Mueller interviewed under oath numerous people near Trump which made it clear that Flynn had discussed with them the conversations he had with Flynn and did mention to them that he discussed the sanctions with the Russian ambassador. This means that Flynn's omission to tell this to the FBI when they asked him about it was NOT a case of forgetting it. Thus, it is pretty clear that Flynn lied to the FBI.

Yes-- discussing expulsions can loosely be described as discussing sanctions. But he was discussing expulsions. And such a discussion supports a theory that Flynn was a Russian agent how?

 

[Athanasius68]

As a Trump transition team member, Flynn had numerous contacts with then-Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak;

Which was part of his job

In December 2016, Kushner and Flynn met with Kislyak in Trump Tower, reportedly discussing the possibility of establishing back-channel communications between the White House and the Kremlin.

Which shows there were no lines of communications available during the campaign. Which shows again there was no conspiracy between the campaign and Russia.

President Obama warned Trump about hiring Flynn as National Security Advisor in November 2016,

Almost certainly because Obama knew that Flynn was under investigation for being a Russian agent.
it should also be pointed out that the Trump transition was not warned about this specifically.

and Flynn himself disclosed to the Trump transition team that he was under federal investigation due to his previous work lobbying for Turkish interests in January 2017.

It is not clear how working for a NATO ally is evidence of his being a Russian agent.

Nonetheless, he was soon sworn in as a national security adviser in late January 2017. During his short tenure, he worked to push a “Middle East Marshall Plan” to build civilian nuclear power plants with Russia throughout the Middle East, which would have required lifting sanctions on Russia.

In other words, Flynn worked to continue the bipartisan foreign policy that had existed since 1991 to incorporate Russia into the worked and not make it a parriah state. As Sec of State, Mrs. Clinton wanted to help Russia create its own sillicon valley.
Its a policy issue and not grounds for suspecting somebody as being a Russian agent

Four days after Trump’s inauguration, the FBI interviewed Flynn about his calls with Kislyak. After hearing a readout of Flynn’s interview with the F.B.I., then-acting Attorney General Sally Yates and another senior D.O.J. official warned White House counsel Don McGahn in January 2017 that Flynn’s denial of discussions of sanctions with Kislyak may have been misleading,

She let them know it had actually happened, since policy at the time would require approval from the White House. Yates was blindided as well.

and that Flynn’s comments made him “vulnerable to Russian blackmail.”

Which is poppycock as the FBI knew what was actually said.

In March 2017, Flynn retroactively registered as a foreign agent for his work on behalf of Turkish interests during the 2016 presidential campaign.

Which is standard should the DOJ uncover a FARA violation.

Flynn is the self appointed useful idiot whose tail has been on fire since 2012 when he became the out of place director of DIA which is where Flynn began his tailspin.

Maybe he is an idiot and should never have been DIA or NSC director.
But that has nothing to do with his allegedly being a Russian agent, his allegedly playing a role in a Trump/Russia conspiracy. And that is all that matters.

 

[Tangmo]

Which was part of his job



Which shows there were no lines of communications available during the campaign. Which shows again there was no conspiracy between the campaign and Russia.




Almost certainly because Obama knew that Flynn was under investigation for being a Russian agent.
it should also be pointed out that the Trump transition was not warned about this specifically.



It is not clear how working for a NATO ally is evidence of his being a Russian agent.



In other words, Flynn worked to continue the bipartisan foreign policy that had existed since 1991 to incorporate Russia into the worked and not make it a parriah state. As Sec of State, Mrs. Clinton wanted to help Russia create its own sillicon valley.
Its a policy issue and not grounds for suspecting somebody as being a Russian agent




She let them know it had actually happened, since policy at the time would require approval from the White House. Yates was blindided as well.



Which is poppycock as the FBI knew what was actually said.



Which is standard should the DOJ uncover a FARA violation.




Maybe he is an idiot and should never have been DIA or NSC director.
But that has nothing to do with his allegedly being a Russian agent, his allegedly playing a role in a Trump/Russia conspiracy. And that is all that matters.

Flynn is an idiot for Russia who crashed his career twice in the decade, first in 2012 when he had his head up his ass at DIA and got cashiered in mid 2014, then for Russia again in 2015 when he joined the Trump campaign and went into the convention with Trump, Manafort, Kislyak and Putin, which lead straight to his self incineration as NSA in 2017. Then the idiot Flynn pleaded guilty in 2018, fired his lawyers and tried to pull his guilty pleas back from a judge who called him a traitor to his face in open court.

Flynn was indeed supposed to be the useful idiot yet he managed to botch that completely. Flynn is simply an idiot period.

So now Flynn is the unsalvagable idiot imbecile who's dragging Barr down with him, although I have no objection to seeing either of 'em eat **** which is what they're doing. Notice too Trump has hardly been doing anything for Flynn in any direct way. All Trump will do any more is say Flynn's the goodest guy who got the bummest deal blah blah and that's that.

Even while the base base and the mass of highly financed rightwing media love Flynn always and forever -- and Trump did depend on Flynn -- Trump isn't going anywhere near this loser at this point. Trump's afraid it might rub off on him too. I have little doubt Barr is himself having his second thoughts about the useless idiot that Flynn is. Cover Boy Idiot of the Decade in fact.

 

[Tangmo]

Due to major technical deficiencies in post #386 I will not be reproducing any post of the poster Athanasius86 in my own posts. My posts in reply to Athanasius86 will not contain any post of his in them.

The technical deficiencies connected with the posts of Athanasius86 and my replies to his posts are long term, persistent, uncorrected, repeated, continuing, and they present zero indication of being corrected or attended to.

 

[pamak]

S.

Why? Its not illegal to lie to the VP.



I didn't say they all lied. I said that Flynn spoke about expulsions.







Its not BS at all. Its the entire enchilada. A recommendation that Russia not overreact to the expulsion of a few dozen of its diplomats is entirely reasonable and unobjectionable. But as Flynn was being investigated for being a Russian agent, it matters that he was talking about expulsions and not about quid pro quos with Russian oiigarchs. Because the actual conversation doesn't lend itself to an allegation that Flynn is a Russian spy.





They did know exactly what was happening because they had the transcript-- a transcript which Comey said was of no criminal or national security concern.



Yes-- discussing expulsions can loosely be described as discussing sanctions. But he was discussing expulsions. And such a discussion supports a theory that Flynn was a Russian agent how?

Answering in sequence

Counterintelligence operations do not demand that someone breaks the law. Suspicious activity can still be investigated and lying to the VP about a conversation you have with a Russian ambassador is suspicious enough to justify the interview!

But you tried to sue the fact that Flynn talked about expulsions to make the claim that Flynn did not lie when he said that he did not have a conversation wit the Russian ambassador about the sanctions. So, I just showed that expulsions and sanctions were both part of the conversation and they cannot be separated. Even the Executive Order talked suctioning certain individuals (Russian officials)


It is BS! You cannot address my argument so you try to repeat again your older position which my argument has already addressed! You initially try to claim that the FBI had no reason to question Flynn and I explained to you that the inconsistency of what Flynn said to Pence about his conversation with the Russian ambassador and what the FBI knew t Flynn discussed with the Russian ambassador was by itself sufficient for the interview. The fact that the FBI had a previous investigation regarding if Flynn collaborated with the Russians does not change my point.


No, they did not noe exactly what was happening because even you said that Pence could have lied to the press


If we agree that discussing expulsions can loosely be describes as discussing sanctions, the we should agree that Flynn DID discuss sanctions with the Russian ambassador. And we should also agree that when he was asked by Pence, Flynn lied to Pence which is the reason why Pence said in pubic that Flynn did not have such conversations with the Russians. This discrepancy is enough for the FBI to investigate as a security threat. You cannot have a national security adviser hiding conversations he has with other foreign ambassadors. Why did Flynn choose to hide this conversation from Pence is a different issue: But whatever the answer, as Mueller explained (and I paraphrase here) , just the fact that the Russians could prove that Flynn DID discuss with them the sanctions and could humiliate Flynn in front of the public or in front of his superiors, this by itself is a security risk because it makes Flynn a candidate for blackmail! This also shows why there is no need to have a crime in order to have a counterintelligence investigation. If Flynn had spent a night in Moscow with a Russian prostitute that could be legal but it is still a matter of national security concern

 

[Tangmo]

Which was part of his job



Which shows there were no lines of communications available during the campaign. Which shows again there was no conspiracy between the campaign and Russia.




Almost certainly because Obama knew that Flynn was under investigation for being a Russian agent.
it should also be pointed out that the Trump transition was not warned about this specifically.



It is not clear how working for a NATO ally is evidence of his being a Russian agent.



In other words, Flynn worked to continue the bipartisan foreign policy that had existed since 1991 to incorporate Russia into the worked and not make it a parriah state. As Sec of State, Mrs. Clinton wanted to help Russia create its own sillicon valley.
Its a policy issue and not grounds for suspecting somebody as being a Russian agent




She let them know it had actually happened, since policy at the time would require approval from the White House. Yates was blindided as well.



Which is poppycock as the FBI knew what was actually said.



Which is standard should the DOJ uncover a FARA violation.




Maybe he is an idiot and should never have been DIA or NSC director.
But that has nothing to do with his allegedly being a Russian agent, his allegedly playing a role in a Trump/Russia conspiracy. And that is all that matters.

This is the corrected quote misattribution in my post #386 and that I referenced in my post #387.

I am correcting a technical duplicity by the poster Anathasius86 that the poster has practiced blatantly for some considerable time -- and as I and certain others have pointed out -- without any proper recognition or due consequence.

 

[Athanasius68]

This is the corrected quote misattribution in my post #386 and that I referenced in my post #387.

I am correcting a technical duplicity by the poster Anathasius86 that the poster has practiced blatantly for some considerable time -- and as I and certain others have pointed out -- without any proper recognition or due consequence.

I had nothing to do with the previous technical issue you had. It was your post, not mine, incorrectly attributed. As I indicated the other day, I have seen the problem with other posters as well and it has been occurring, for time to time, for the past six months or so.

 

[pamak]

I had nothing to do with the previous technical issue you had. It was your post, not mine, incorrectly attributed. As I indicated the other day, I have seen the problem with other posters as well and it has been occurring, for time to time, for the past six months or so.

Actually, the problem starts with your post. Then whenever a person replies to you, the problem is transfered to his post. The question is why is it only with your posts (or when people reply only to your posts) that we see such problem?

 

[Athanasius68]

Actually, the problem starts with your post. Then whenever a person replies to you, the problem is transfered to his post. The question is why is it only with your posts (or when people reply only to your posts) that we see such problem?

#385 was clear.
Like I said, I have seen the problem in other threads and with other posters.

 

[Athanasius68]

Counterintelligence operations do not demand that someone breaks the law.

This is true.

Suspicious activity can still be investigated and lying to the VP about a conversation you have with a Russian ambassador is suspicious enough to justify the interview!

If we start from the suspicion that the person is a Russian agent. But as he had already been cleared of being so...

But you tried to sue the fact that Flynn talked about expulsions to make the claim that Flynn did not lie when he said that he did not have a conversation wit the Russian ambassador about the sanctions. So, I just showed that expulsions and sanctions were both part of the conversation and they cannot be separated. Even the Executive Order talked suctioning certain individuals (Russian officials)

The discussion was about the expulsions.

No, they did not noe exactly what was happening because even you said that Pence could have lied to the press

Lying to the press is not illegal.

If we agree that discussing expulsions can loosely be describes as discussing sanctions, the we should agree that Flynn DID discuss sanctions with the Russian ambassador.

And then we run into the issue of materiality-- namely so what if they talked about not overreacting to Russian diplomats being expelled.
How does that prove he a Russian agent, or had been involved in a conspiracy during the 2016 election. It doesn't. Its not material to anything.

And we should also agree that when he was asked by Pence, Flynn lied to Pence which is the reason why Pence said in pubic that Flynn did not have such conversations with the Russians. This discrepancy is enough for the FBI to investigate as a security threat. You cannot have a national security adviser hiding conversations he has with other foreign ambassadors.

Nothing was hidden. The FBI had the transcripts. What Flynn told Pence is not the FBI's problem. Its a management issue-- personnel and the like.

Why did Flynn choose to hide this conversation from Pence is a different issue: But whatever the answer, as Mueller explained (and I paraphrase here) , just the fact that the Russians could prove that Flynn DID discuss with them the sanctions and could humiliate Flynn in front of the public or in front of his superiors, this by itself is a security risk because it makes Flynn a candidate for blackmail!

Again, the FBI knew what was said. No possibility of blackmail.

This also shows why there is no need to have a crime in order to have a counterintelligence investigation.

This is true. But a counterintelligence investigation cannot be used as a backway to build a criminal case.
Flynn was not a Russian agent-- never was. A discussion about expulsions (where Flynn said Russia should not escalate-- as if somehow that is improper) doesn't change it.

 

[pamak]

#385 was clear.
Like I said, I have seen the problem in other threads and with other posters.

And my point was clear too. What I see is that when people reply to your defective posts, this is when their reply becomes problematic. So, the problem starts with you and I still have not seen any explanation for why it is only when people interact with you that this problem exists. What are you doing when you respond to people's posts? Do not you click the same buttons like anybody else?

 

[pamak]

This is true.



If we start from the suspicion that the person is a Russian agent. But as he had already been cleared of being so...



The discussion was about the expulsions.





Lying to the press is not illegal.




And then we run into the issue of materiality-- namely so what if they talked about not overreacting to Russian diplomats being expelled.
How does that prove he a Russian agent, or had been involved in a conspiracy during the 2016 election. It doesn't. Its not material to anything.



Nothing was hidden. The FBI had the transcripts. What Flynn told Pence is not the FBI's problem. Its a management issue-- personnel and the like.



Again, the FBI knew what was said. No possibility of blackmail.



This is true. But a counterintelligence investigation cannot be used as a backway to build a criminal case.
Flynn was not a Russian agent-- never was. A discussion about expulsions (where Flynn said Russia should not escalate-- as if somehow that is improper) doesn't change it.

answer in sequence:


If true, then the whole argument that Flynn did not brea any law up until the investigation has been rejected.


No! Misrepresenting a conversation with a Russian ambassador is by itself suspicious and worths an investigation regardless of if there was or was not a previous investigation.


I have shown that expulsions and sanctions cannot be separated. Even Obama's Executive order talked about imposing sanctions on individuals So, you again reveal your inability to take down my counterpoint and you revert to your original claim that Flynn only talked about the expulsions of individuals

My argument did not say that lying to press was illegal. My argument was that the FBI agents had to investigate if Flynn DID misrepresent the conversation to Pence or if he did not and Pence simply decided to lie to the press. So, I rejected your claims that the FBI knew exactly what was happening. No, it did not!


When Flynn was a national security adviser, it is very material to a counterintelligence operation that he chose to lie that he did not have any conversation about the sanctions with the Russian ambassador.


Sorry, but what the FBI knew was SECRET. Flynn did not know that the FBI had the transcript, neither did the Russians. So, both could act based on their perceptions and have Flynn become compromised as a result of a blackmail.


Again, neither Flynn nor the Russians were aware of the FBI operations and what transcripts the FBI did or didn't have.


The criminal case is based on the fact that Flynn lied to the FBI during the interview.And the law does not treat interviews during a counterintelligence investigation differently from an other interview.

 

[Hatuey]

This is setting a remarkably bad precedent. If this ruling is allowed to stand then we may as well not have a justice system.

If a guy with high priced lawyers and friends in the DOJ can't have the charges dismissed after he has pled guilty several times, why even have a legal system?

Clearly, that is the real problem with the justice system.....

Lmao..





------------------------

Thought had by person at the White House: If you can remember, man, woman, car, camera, TV, you are fit to lead a country and no one has anything to worry about

 

[EMNofSeattle]

That's ridiculous, and you know it Luther. The case against Flynn was sound. We wouldn't even be having this argument if Flynn was a member of the Obama Administration convicted under the same circumstances. If anyone is perverting justice here, it is the present Attorney General of the US and his blatant leniency toward friends of the President.

There is no constitutional power of judges to demand someone be prosecuted.

 

[pamak]

There is no constitutional power of judges to demand someone be prosecuted.

After pleading guilty, the judge has the power to refuse a withdrawal of the plea agreement.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

After pleading guilty, the judge has the power to refuse a withdrawal of the plea agreement.

No they don’t. It is a usurpation. Especially since there is documentary evidence the plea was both a sham and coerced

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

No they don’t. It is a usurpation. Especially since there is documentary evidence the plea was both a sham and coerced

Yes, they do.

When one pleads guilty to a crime, they swear under penalty of law that what they have said - including the voluntary admission of guilt - was true and uncoerced.

If someone pleads guilty, and then later decides to change their plea, they have to prove to the judge that the fact that they lied before was justified.