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The difference is objective-- the purpose of a criminal investigation is to gather evidence to present to a court of for prosecution.
The purpose of a counter-intelligence investigation is to find out what foreign powers are up to and to stop it. The purpose is not to gather evidence for a criminal prosecution.
But there still needs to be evidence of a counter-intelligence threat--- an existence of a fact.
Not really-- because the FBI had the transcript and knew what was discussed (which btw was not about sanctions).
Already did-- the lack of a defensive briefing to the campaign after starting Crossfire Hurricane. If it was just Carter Page the FBI was worried about, you tell a Christie or a Sessions or a Flynn. Then the campaign knows and the campaign can deal with the problem (hopefully by firing him-- which eliminates the the threat and this achieves the counter-intelligence objective). Instead, mum was the word because had they told Christie or Sessions, those guys would have told Trump.
Thus Trump was the target. Can't tell the target he is subject of an investigation. And of course the campaign couldn't very well fire Trump.
Actually, there is NO legal requirement to have evidence for counterintelligence investigation as long as the evidence does not violate constitutional rights. And Flynn gave many clues for becoming a target of counter-intelligence investigation which is the reason why the Inspector General found nothing wrong with the opening of the FBI investigation. So, if x person tells the FBI without proof that a certain person has been used by the Russians to approach a candidate, or if Flynn is caught telling the soon to be VP lies about his conversations with a Russian ambassador, this by itself is enough for the FBI to ask (as they did) Flynn to have an interview with them.
Actually, EXACTLY because the FBI had the transcripts. they knew that he was lying and even TRump and Pence at the time said the same thing.Stop ignoring the posts with the links I posted showing that it was NOT just the FBI which made the claim that Flynn lied.
The lack of briefing does not show that Trump was the FBI's target during the campaign. It shows that Trump was a mere candidate who was not authorized to have classified information, the fact that the FBI does not inform people around the suspect about its investigations, and the fact that the FBI had not enough corroborated information to openly make a case against Flynn. When Flynn also chose to lie to Pence about his conversations with the Russian ambassador, the FBI could make a more solid case. Sorry, NOBODY outside specific people in the federal government have clearance to handle an FBI investigation.
To further catch up:
1. We now know the campaign was being investigated for CONSPIRING with those Russian efforts. That seems to be the fact that many people suddenly now wish to forget. Particularly since we now know there was no evidence, no facts, to have such suspicion.
The reframing of the issue as one of simply investigating a Russian intelligence operation is laughable considering that as we already know the FBI thought the Steele Dossier Russian disinformation, yet used it in anyways.
2. As there was no evidence to suspect that that the campaign was CONSPIRING with Russian espionage efforts, there was no reason to interview Flynn, thus... ect., ect., ect.
The issue, as it has been, is that there was no case against Flynn for being a Russian agent.
Or against Page.
Or against Trump.
Yet they were all investigated.
It appears the Deep State is still out to get Flynn for doing nothing illegal. Meanwhile Hillary waltzes away scot-free for putting highly classified information on a improperly secured and unauthorized server. If I would have mishandled classified data and been caught I would have been indicted, prosecuted and sentenced to time in prison.
In the end it looks like Trump will have to pardon Flynn and he will.
Why dismiss the Flynn case? Because the FBI can't prove it
Why dismiss the Flynn case? Because the FBI can't prove it | TheHill
The difference is objective-- the purpose of a criminal investigation is to gather evidence to present to a court of for prosecution.
The purpose of a counter-intelligence investigation is to find out what foreign powers are up to and to stop it. The purpose is not to gather evidence for a criminal prosecution.
But there still needs to be evidence of a counter-intelligence threat--- an existence of a fact.
Not really-- because the FBI had the transcript and knew what was discussed (which btw was not about sanctions).
Already did-- the lack of a defensive briefing to the campaign after starting Crossfire Hurricane. If it was just Carter Page the FBI was worried about, you tell a Christie or a Sessions or a Flynn. Then the campaign knows and the campaign can deal with the problem (hopefully by firing him-- which eliminates the the threat and this achieves the counter-intelligence objective). Instead, mum was the word because had they told Christie or Sessions, those guys would have told Trump.
Thus Trump was the target. Can't tell the target he is subject of an investigation. And of course the campaign couldn't very well fire Trump.
Still amazed at the effort and devotion with which the Trump team tried to shelter Carter Page.
I don’t know what’s up with this guy, but it’s going to be big when we find out what it is.
Still amazed at the effort and devotion with which the Trump team tried to shelter Carter Page.
I don’t know what’s up with this guy, but it’s going to be big when we find out what it is.
The allegation was that the Trump campaign had conspired with Russia.
Mr. Page supposedly played a role in that conspiracy.
As we now know, the suspicions of his role was based upon probable Russian disinformation and definite forged document.
As such, his role is demolished, and it is simply more confirmation of the lack of substance of the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory.
The allegation was that the Trump campaign had conspired with Russia.
Mr. Page supposedly played a role in that conspiracy.
As we now know, the suspicions of his role was based upon probable Russian disinformation and definite forged document.
As such, his role is demolished, and it is simply more confirmation of the lack of substance of the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory.
It has only been about three weeks since the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that the Trump campaign DID collude with the Russians.
The FBI knew that Page had been previously subject to a recruitment effort by the Russians in 2013-4. Page was interviewed by the FBI at the time, and allegedly cooperated with them.
He was also on Russian paid junkets to Moscow at least once, on record.
Page is a wannabe Russian expert, or energy expert, depending on who’s writing the check.
When Trump blurted out his name (along with George Papadopolous) as a “senior foreign policy advisor”, few had any real idea who he was. He was not known in established foreign policy circles
He was possibly promoted by Sam Clovis, the right wing talk radio disc jockey that Trump had filling executive appointments with.
The noise machine and the people around Trump are obsessive about Page.
I don’t know why, still. But the explanation is going to be interesting.
It has only been about three weeks since the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that the Trump campaign DID collude with the Russians.
The FBI knew that Page had been previously subject to a recruitment effort by the Russians in 2013-4. Page was interviewed by the FBI at the time, and allegedly cooperated with them.
He was also on Russian paid junkets to Moscow at least once, on record.
Page is a wannabe Russian expert, or energy expert, depending on who’s writing the check.
When Trump blurted out his name (along with George Papadopolous) as a “senior foreign policy advisor”, few had any real idea who he was. He was not known in established foreign policy circles
He was possibly promoted by Sam Clovis, the right wing talk radio disc jockey that Trump had filling executive appointments with.
The noise machine and the people around Trump are obsessive about Page.
I don’t know why, still. But the explanation is going to be interesting.
The Senate made no such conclusion. They were clear-- Russia targeted the Trump campaign. Only with Manafort, and the Senate made no claim that anyone in the campaign knew what he was doing. Heck-- there was such an absence of evidence of collusion and conspiracy, the Senate couldn't explain why Manafort sent the polling data to Kilmick (Manafort said he did it for money).
In any event, Page is only interesting to the extent it was said he conspired with Russia and worked as a Russian agent. Since neither are true, it helps show the total lack of substance to the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory.
I expect that we’ll see a lot more of this kind of post now.
Trumpsters don’t understand much about the world, and they need the sort of simple cartoon explanations that Trump always made up for them.
I have been asking for four years, but not a single Trumpster ever took up my challenge to describe who the “deep state” is, or what “the swamp” is.
Not once.
But the bobble heads all go up and down in chorus at the mention of either meaningless phrase.
It appears the Deep State is still out to get Flynn for doing nothing illegal. Meanwhile Hillary waltzes away scot-free for putting highly classified information on a improperly secured and unauthorized server. If I would have mishandled classified data and been caught I would have been indicted, prosecuted and sentenced to time in prison.
In the end it looks like Trump will have to pardon Flynn and he will.
Why dismiss the Flynn case? Because the FBI can't prove it
Why dismiss the Flynn case? Because the FBI can't prove it | TheHill
Flynn lied to the FBI about his calls to the Russian ambassador in an effort to quash a U.N. resolution on Israeli settlements in exchange for backing-off US sanctions against Russia, which such call is a national security threat. That's illegal. That is one thing that Flynn was convicted for.
The Senate made no such conclusion. They were clear-- Russia targeted the Trump campaign. Only with Manafort, and the Senate made no claim that anyone in the campaign knew what he was doing. Heck-- there was such an absence of evidence of collusion and conspiracy, the Senate couldn't explain why Manafort sent the polling data to Kilmick (Manafort said he did it for money).
In any event, Page is only interesting to the extent it was said he conspired with Russia and worked as a Russian agent. Since neither are true, it helps show the total lack of substance to the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory.
I have no idea where you got that notion.
I don’t think you’ll find this comforting.
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/report_volume5.pdf
Years ago back when Newt Gingrich was Speaker of the House I was listening to a presser. Newt was asked a question and replied, “You don’t mess with the Big Boys.” Of course I wondered at that time who the Big Boys were.
The Big Boys are what conservatives today call the Swamp. It is a combination of many different people and groups; the government bureaucracy, the military industrial complex, the pharmaceutical industry, the weaponized FBI And IRS under Obama and the alphabet agencies such as the CIA and NSA.The people you care not mess with if you wish to have a long and profitable career in Washington D.C.
Remember when Schumer warned Trump about the intel agencies which are part of the Deep State.
Assume you pled guilty to robbing a bank twice but the bank had never been robbed.
What right did the FBI have to know details about international tactics under consideration by the incoming Trump administration on U.N. resolutions Involving Israel?
Muelller's team was trying to get Flynn to flip on Trump and perhaps even to compose a damaging story that could help impeach Trump.
In my opinion the FBI was playing the “Show me the man and I will find you the crime” game.
That is possible. It could be because Attorney General Barr is an honest man and seen the prosecution as a travesty of justice.
But there could be other reasons as discussed in this article.
Government lawyer suggests Attorney General Barr had secret reasons for dropping Michael Flynn criminal case
DOJ lawyer suggests AG Barr had secret reasons for dropping Michael Flynn case
The allegation was that the Trump campaign had conspired with Russia.
Mr. Page supposedly played a role in that conspiracy.
As we now know, the suspicions of his role was based upon probable Russian disinformation and definite forged document.
As such, his role is demolished, and it is simply more confirmation of the lack of substance of the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory.
So you are dismissing the republican senate conclusions? This is the same republican senate that acquitted Trump without hearing a single witness or reviewing a single document.
What right did the FBI have to know details about international tactics under consideration by the incoming Trump administration on U.N. resolutions Involving Israel?
Muelller's team was trying to get Flynn to flip on Trump and perhaps even to compose a damaging story that could help impeach Trump.
In my opinion the FBI was playing the “Show me the man and I will find you the crime” game.
So you are dismissing the republican senate conclusions? This is the same republican senate that acquitted Trump without hearing a single witness or reviewing a single document.
The Senate found no evidence of a conspiracy. The best they could do was with Manafort-- even they stated that he did not know that Kilimik was a Russian agent.
QUOTE=Stealers Wheel;1072623573]Until January 20th at noon, Flynn was a private citizen, and as such he had no authority to speak on the behalf of the U.S. government. In fact, there is a specific law that prohibits private citizens from negotiating with foreign governments contrary to U.S. foreign policy. That is exactly what Flynn was doing. He was essentially telling the Russians "Just chill for now, as soon as Trump is in, we'll reverse all those sanctions and you can carry on as before." The Russians agreed to Flynn's suggestion, as they did not retaliate as they would have normally.
Intel intercept operators heard these conversations and this info was passed on to the FBI. When the FBI asked Flynn if he had been in touch with any foreign government agents Flynn denied it. Why would he do that? After about three weeks, Trump fired Flynn, more than likely because Flynn was now a political liability for the new administration.
Trump told FBI director Comey to back off the Flynn-Russia angle, and when Comey refused, Trump fired Comey. Trump stated this publicly in an interview with Lester Holt.
I don't believe Flynn acted on his own initiative. I suspect he was directed by higher ups, possibly Trump himself, to reach out to the Russians. When the whole thing blew up in their faces, Flynn was the fall guy. Flynn has remained loyal to Trump throughout his ordeal, and AG Barr's decision to drop the case, insisting that Flynn be allowed to withdraw his guilty plea, recant his allocution and simply walk away is Flynn's reward.
If Flynn is ultimately sentenced, Trump will commute his sentence. He will not pardon him, because to do so would strip him of his 5th amendment protections. Commutation allows Flynn to refuse to testify.
The Senate made no such conclusion. They were clear-- Russia targeted the Trump campaign. Only with Manafort, and the Senate made no claim that anyone in the campaign knew what he was doing. Heck-- there was such an absence of evidence of collusion and conspiracy, the Senate couldn't explain why Manafort sent the polling data to Kilmick (Manafort said he did it for money).
In any event, Page is only interesting to the extent it was said he conspired with Russia and worked as a Russian agent. Since neither are true, it helps show the total lack of substance to the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory.
manafort, jr, stone, cohen..you are being dishonest again
Except it's not even "your opinion" it's bat**** wingnut propaganda manufactured for you by right wing media sources to protect the president at all costs. It's also not even remotely real.
The DOJ prosecuted this case. Assuming you are correct, they convinced the defendant to perjure himself. Your premise means they knew he was not guilty. That is not how plea deals work. The prosecutor is not allowed to offer a deal to a defendant and charge him for a crime everyone knows he did not commit. There must be guilt and the prosecutor must have evidence of that fact. If the prosecutors knew Flynn was not guilty and they allowed him to allocute falsely, that is evidence of suborning perjury. Someone has to answer for that.
This idea that the AG can just step in right before sentencing and say "Oh, never mind. The DOJ has changed its mind," without some accountability is outrageous.
Judge Sullivan: A Prosecutor in Robes
by Alan M. Dershowitz
May 14, 2020 at 3:30 pm
Longtime liberal Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz contends the judge in the Michael Flynn case has become a "prosecutor in robes," exceeding his authority by appointing a retired federal judge to argue against the Justice Department's decision to drop the case.
In a column published by the Gatestone Institute, Dershowitz said Judge Emmet Sullivan's refusal to sign off on the Justice Department's motion to drop the case circumvents the constitutional limitation on the jurisdiction of federal judges.
"The Constitution limits this jurisdiction to actual cases and controversies. There must be disagreement between the parties that requires resolution by a judge. If the parties agree, there is nothing for the judge to decide," Dershowitz argues.
***snip***
Dershowitz pointed out that according to precedent, there is no case when prosecutors drop charges, meaning Sullivan is clearly exceeding his authority.
Dershowitz: Judge in Flynn case a 'prosecutor in robes'
According to the right wing news there is a possibility that the Durham investigation will lead to the indictment of a number of people who abused their powers during the Trump/Putin collusion investigation.
Now let’s not forget how TOTALLY WRONG your wonderful liberal media was about what the results of the Mueller investigation would be and how correct the news was from right wing sources that Mueller would find little or nothing.
The fantasy alt-right media has cooked up for you is a cool strory bro. Totally not reality based unfortunately.
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