Anyone up for a civil, productive political debate?

[j brown's body]

How exactly would that work? I go to some top shelf law firm and tell them “I want to be a partner at your firm. Pay for me to go to law school?”

My first employer paid for me to go to grad school - though I unfortunately couldn’t finish. I had to pay for my bachelors and get myself hired first.

Probably wouldn't be used for things like law and medicine.

 

[Torus34]

I am fairly liberal, and I generally support Biden's agenda.
I'm sick of debates devolving into insulting competitions because one of the debaters thought that trying to one-up someone who disagrees with then is more important than doing their part to try and solve political polarization.
Just so you know, I didn't really follow the news much until around 2018.
Be prepared to have your views challenged in a reasoned and fact-based manner. I am expecting the same.

Hi!

I'm all for polite, reasoned discussions. As some have noted, it's a tad difficult to start one and keep it on track. It can easily go down a single-issue rabbit hole and deteriorate into first, "You don't understand!", followed by "That's idiotic!" and finishing with "You're an idiot!".

So ... let me propose we begin with a statement; the Republican Party and the Democratic Party are not two sides of the same coin.


What distinguishes them?


Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the prophylactic Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.


Reminder. I try to respond to all who quote my posts. If you do not get a response from me, it may be that you've made it onto my 'Ignore' list.

 

[Xgkjgx]

Sure. What do you want to talk about?

Do you support Trump over Biden, and if so, why?

 

[joko104]

Re your NZ observations, I spent 6 weeks in NZ eight years ago, traveling the country and engaging Kiwi's in political conversation (actually they insisted on engaging me). Unless they have changed a great deal I got no indication they will ever close the doors on immigration. Invariably when I brought up the topic of NZ eventually facing the same kind of dislocative effects as California (some of which they already experienced in high housing costs) they thought my candor to be upsetting.

NZ insists it has an ideology of multiculturalism (a term increasing arcane in the US) and in accordance with it adoption of "neo-liberal" economics and free trade it has also embraced immigration as a unquestioned (or unquestionable) good. There was, at the time, no substantive political opposition.

That said, NZ has been a small country of mainly northern European and British people (aside from their Maori). As such they remind me of old Oregonians or old school New England - behaved, strong social norms, community and duty bound, and PRACTICAL. Ideology matters less in NZ politics than common-sense impressions. As such they have ZERO problem with imposing language and literacy requirements for potential immigrants, assigning merit points based on their economic needs and the immigrants documented skills, as well as filtering out older immigrants, and imposing strict rules preventing immigrants from obtaining any social welfare/assistance benefits for 10? years.

And they do not tolerate illegals (except perhaps Australians).

I like NZ and would encourage any young person to immigrate and obtain job experience. I don't know that I'd have wanted to spend a lifetime there, but the experience is invaluable.

Thank you for your comments. NZ does not want old people (because of their social programs), must be fluent and literate in English, and do not want anyone who will be an economic drain, for which being skilled in a desirable way and/or putting money into their system is a necessity. We were told by the NZ law firm we hired that $100K put into their system is the minimal entry fee (unless highly and uniquely skilled/educated). The more put in, the more open the door is. Housing costs are extremely high and there are other negatives. But it seems an off the beaten path more laid back county not incessantly in the middle of international tugs of war of the super powers and in social conflict. Of course, if he doesn't like it he can always return.

 

[Xgkjgx]

Hi!

I'm all for polite, reasoned discussions. As some have noted, it's a tad difficult to start one and keep it on track. It can easily go down a single-issue rabbit hole and deteriorate into first, "You don't understand!", followed by "That's idiotic!" and finishing with "You're an idiot!".

So ... let me propose we begin with a statement; the Republican Party and the Democratic Party are not two sides of the same coin.


What distinguishes them?


Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the prophylactic Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.


Reminder. I try to respond to all who quote my posts. If you do not get a response from me, it may be that you've made it onto my 'Ignore' list.

"What distinguishes them?"
Well, the Democratic Party has liberal positions on most issues and the Republican Party has conservative positions on most issues.

 

[Mycroft]

Do you support Trump over Biden, and if so, why?

I support Trump over Biden.

I agree with Trump's goals and objectives...as stated since BEFORE he became President.

I agree with none of Biden's goals and objectives.

How about you?

 

[joko104]

Doing so would be a huge boon to our nation. Empowering young people is vital.

And piss on young blue collar families by doing so. It is not college graduates who most need to be empowered among young people. As I said, paying college loans is welfare for the rich - making blue collar workers pay the bills of their bosses and supervisors.

 

[maxparrish]

Thank you for your comments. NZ does not want old people (because of their social programs), must be fluent and literate in English, and do not want anyone who will be an economic drain, for which being skilled in a desirable way and/or putting money into their system is a necessity. We were told by the NZ law firm we hired that $100K put into their system is the minimal entry fee (unless highly and uniquely skilled/educated). The more put in, the more open the door is. Housing costs are extremely high and there are other negatives. But it seems an off the beaten path more laid back county not incessantly in the middle of international tugs of war of the super powers and in social conflict. Of course, if he doesn't like it he can always return.

You might investigate the point system yourself. Your daughter is young and once she completes her college in some skill area (e.g. school education) I'll wager she won't need to invest any amount of money. However the older you are, the more "points" are required. I applied at 55, the MAX age. I had 20 years of IT management, 10 years of public admin management etc. However my BA degree was in economics, not Info. Tech. Because my BA (earned 30 years prior) didn't apply to my actual career I got rejected.

I don't resent it...I can see why they have to be selective of old folk - unlike the US where chain migration ships in illiterate and skill-less grand parents uncles etc.

None the less, the influx (along with the economic takeoff in the early 1990s) has made real estate unreasonable in Aukland. On the other hand, many areas are far more reasonable (my favorites being Nelson (south island), Napier (north island east coast), and Dunedin on South Island.

 

[Slavister]

True. But then, if fewer and fewer banks and lending institutions are willing to lend to students I see one of two things happening. First, colleges just keep prices where they are at, but without students being able to secure financing, student bodies shrink to only the children of the wealthy or kids who are able to get scholarships. I find that very unlikely. There just are not that many rich people (even when we include foreign exchange students) to keep all the colleges funded at that level. Or second, colleges are forced to cut costs and drop tuition prices to make it more affordable for young men and women to attend college and expand enrollment to allow a larger student body to attend to make up the difference.

Before COVID-19, I would have thought the latter unrealistic. But the pandemic has acted as a haymaker right to the jaw of many educational institutions and has made mass online learning a possibility, such that many institutions could afford to expand their class size three, four ten-fold with little difficulty.

Under your second option, quality of eduction goes down. IMO, it's better to use taxes to make education free or much less expensive going forward (NOT reimburse outstanding loans), similar to what we did with high schools. A lot of state run universities are top notch and expanding those / setting up similar ones would be a lot better IMHO.

 

[maxparrish]

And piss on young blue collar families by doing so. It is not college graduates who most need to be empowered among young people. As I said, paying college loans is welfare for the rich - making blue collar workers pay the bills of their bosses and supervisors.

Indeed. Why should a truck driver in South Carolina pay (via taxes) for the education of a Chicago Banker's Son?

 

[Xgkjgx]

Probably the only thing we might disagree on is gun control and abortion and I tend to get too emotionally involved when discussing abortion.

Abortion is one of the issues where I disagree with the Democratic Party. I think that it should only be used in exceptional circumstances. I personally find anything relating to reproduction to be gross, so I'd rather not discuss this issue further.

 

[ludin]

I am fairly liberal, and I generally support Biden's agenda.
I'm sick of debates devolving into insulting competitions because one of the debaters thought that trying to one-up someone who disagrees with then is more important than doing their part to try and solve political polarization.
Just so you know, I didn't really follow the news much until around 2018.
Be prepared to have your views challenged in a reasoned and fact-based manner. I am expecting the same.

What exactly are you attempting to debate?

 

[dex4974]

And piss on young blue collar families by doing so. It is not college graduates who most need to be empowered among young people. As I said, paying college loans is welfare for the rich - making blue collar workers pay the bills of their bosses and supervisors.

What kinds of jobs do you think will be available and important in the future? Education is becoming more and more vital in an ever technologically advancing society. Also you are off your rocker if you think students drowning in loan debt are rich.

 

[joko104]

What kinds of jobs do you think will be available and important in the future? Education is becoming more and more vital in an ever technologically advancing society. Also you are off your rocker if you think students drowning in loan debt are rich.

I see your messages as very arrogant, though not for malicious purpose.

Do you understand the concept of measuring a person's IQ? The average is 100. HALF of the population is below 100. A large share of people have IQs in the low 90s and even low 80s. It's not their fault. There is nothing they can do about it. They can't study their way out of it. And we can't just line them up against the wall and machine gun them down.

In fact, it is a core principle of this country that they have 100% as much right to life as you. Nor doesn't it mean they are worthless. In fact, they are essential for the function of society. You apparent visions that everyone can be a chief and no one should be an Indian is detached from reality.

Such "slower learners" from birth not only are necessary to take jobs us brainaics couldn't stand for long, they serve in our military. They do all sorts of stuff we don't do. They are why the shelves are empty in stores. They do not have the luxury of staying at home for months living on fixed income. They can be wonderful assets, wonderful friends, very patriotic, and do wonderful parenting. But they also always will seriously struggle for money. They likely can never even hope to have a home - renters all their lives and then it a terrible situation in old age having to live only on social security - with rent consuming at least half of that.

You think it would be wonderful to pay the college tuition of a person who is going to become a low 6 figure income in his/her profession. For most it just will be they can buy a more expense and new next car or truck.

A down payment on a 3-2-2 frame home in the lower income part of the suburbs or inner city could make them a homeowner family for life, even have a little secure backyard for the kids and the dog, - rather than a renter - for a house that the payments go down for inflation factors and actually can have a paid for home well before retirement - and all the credit and self esteem that brings. I say if we are going spend money to give kick starts, I say don't give it to the person who becomes a lawyer. Give it to a working blue collar family specifically for a down payment on a house - thus reducing the payment likely to lower than the rent they are paying.

 

[reflechissez]

Then change it to "the unwritten core premise of your claim is..." Same difference.

What an odd response.

 

[Luther]

Okay, there's talk of cancelling $50,000 of student loan debt.

I'm against that. I paid back my student loans, why should my tax dollars go to pay off some slacker's student loans?

And you voted for Biden right swinger?

 

[Luther]

Not everybody has parents that can do that.

There is also Grand parents who are usually loaded

 

[Torus34]

"What distinguishes them?"
Well, the Democratic Party has liberal positions on most issues and the Republican Party has conservative positions on most issues.

Hi! And thank you for responding. What you've said is correct, but it's just the outer layer of the onion, I think. What is there about each party that results in those positions? Why are the positions not reversed? See what I'm getting at? Are their internal cultures different? Are the elites of each party different? Lots to explore here.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. And have a great Thanksgiving Day.

 

[Port & Starboard]

Tastes great!

Less filling!

 

[dex4974]

I see your messages as very arrogant, though not for malicious purpose.

Do you understand the concept of measuring a person's IQ? The average is 100. HALF of the population is below 100. A large share of people have IQs in the low 90s and even low 80s. It's not their fault. There is nothing they can do about it. They can't study their way out of it. And we can't just line them up against the wall and machine gun them down.

In fact, it is a core principle of this country that they have 100% as much right to life as you. Nor doesn't it mean they are worthless. In fact, they are essential for the function of society. You apparent visions that everyone can be a chief and no one should be an Indian is detached from reality.

Such "slower learners" from birth not only are necessary to take jobs us brainaics couldn't stand for long, they serve in our military. They do all sorts of stuff we don't do. They are why the shelves are empty in stores. They do not have the luxury of staying at home for months living on fixed income. They can be wonderful assets, wonderful friends, very patriotic, and do wonderful parenting. But they also always will seriously struggle for money. They likely can never even hope to have a home - renters all their lives and then it a terrible situation in old age having to live only on social security - with rent consuming at least half of that.

You think it would be wonderful to pay the college tuition of a person who is going to become a low 6 figure income in his/her profession. For most it just will be they can buy a more expense and new next car or truck.

A down payment on a 3-2-2 frame home in the lower income part of the suburbs or inner city could make them a homeowner family for life, even have a little secure backyard for the kids and the dog, - rather than a renter - for a house that the payments go down for inflation factors and actually can have a paid for home well before retirement - and all the credit and self esteem that brings. I say if we are going spend money to give kick starts, I say don't give it to the person who becomes a lawyer. Give it to a working blue collar family specifically for a down payment on a house - thus reducing the payment likely to lower than the rent they are paying.

Not everybody is smart, but we need to make it easier for the smart ones to get educated and reach their full potential. There is a lot of wasted talent in the world. I think that's one of the strongest arguments somebody could make for globalist efforts. Somewhere in Africa, India or Asia there are children that are Albert Einstein level intelligent but lack the opportunities to grow at the rate necessary for them to help us change the world. Some of them can't even read because they grew up in extreme poverty and didn't have somebody to teach them. Educating as many humans as possible as much as possible should be a primary effort.

What do we do about dumb people in an ever advancing society? Eventually we'll have to start seriously looking at things like UBI. What you say is true. Some people will just never have what it takes to be truly educated and useful. We can't kill them obviously.

 

[vegas giants]

Probably wouldn't be used for things like law and medicine.

It is in norway

 

[NWRatCon]

Debt forgiveness is a terrible idea IMO. To quote my own thread on this back from February...

Debt forgiveness for schooling is a totally backward idea that says
- if you worked summer jobs to pay off some of your tuition, you wasted your time
- if you worked hard to get scholarships, you wasted your time
- if you are a [grand]parent who helped out your kid to pay for school, you wasted your money
- if you are a [grand]parent who diligently contributed to 529 plan to use for school, you wasted your money
- if you finished school and thought as responsible person you should pay off your school debt asap, you were wrong
- we encourage people to take on debt over and above those that believe in paying off their bills

Fair proposals include
- pay back tuition to former students, no matter whether it's paid off or not
- don't pay back anything; just make public schools free starting year 20XX

From a fiscal standpoint, you're looking at this entirely wrong. Debt forgiveness of this nature is a tremendous boost to the economy in at least two ways: First, it rewards positive behavior of those who took the steps necessary to further their education, for whatever reason; second, it frees up a ton of personal wealth for economic investment - that's a big stimulus, particularly for those who started with limited means (like me). It means they can afford houses, families, and vehicles, etc, that they might otherwise have to put off for the future.

Now, I also agree with your last two proposals. I also see the merit in balancing a program with public service - like the GI bill does, or tying it to teaching or practicing medicine/nursing in underserved communities. These are all public-service considerations for policy choices. But some kind of program is necessary in the interest of the nation.

I'm also realistic enough to understand that any choice will have unexpected consequences as well as inequalities. But those downsides should not stand as barriers to progress. They should be addressed as they are identified. Too often minor issues become roadblocks to major programs, and that has thwarted many laudable efforts - like healthcare and immigration reform. As a boss of mine used to put it: saw the wood that's in front of you - We'll cross that brushes when we come to it - don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, etc.

 

[NWRatCon]

Albeit with some concession?
Okay, partial subsidies, means tested and merit tested...in other words, if the kid is looking at a mountain of debt, but they completed their studies with good grades and they have a good path but the obstacle is getting in the way, a partial subsidy gives them a little breathing room.
You okay with that as a compromise?

I love the idea of rational compromise. That used to be the mantra of the Republican party - in the halcyon days of yore.

One of the problems that is implied in the OP, is that too many people engage in these discussions not to seek understanding or think through an issue, but to push a viewpoint - especially hyperpartisan ones. I always think the first step is to properly diagnose the problem, then consider solutions. We kinda got off onto one particular issue, but I think the intent of the OP was broader (frankly, too broad).

I would suggest we, collectively, follow the discussion formula: problem; proposed solution; discuss. This could be the forum for that.

 

[NWRatCon]

Probably wouldn't be used for things like law and medicine.

Why not? I think we may be restricting our imaginations too much. A: we need doctors all over the country. How do we address that? B: What about public defenders? Spend a year as a public defender - or other public law position - get a year of law school paid for (some law firms actually do this to meet their Pro Bono requirements). There are many field where this works. That's the gravamen of the GI Bill. Use that concept elsewhere.

 

[NWRatCon]

I do not think student loans should be automatically cancelled. There are plenty of people with student loans who have high-paying careers who can and should pay back the money that was borrowed, and should not be afforded a massive windfall just because there is a huge cohort of impoverished people who were sold functionally worthless degrees that while having intrinsic value have little demand (mainly in the Arts & Humanities). Rather, we should amend the United States Bankruptcy Code to make it such that student loans are no longer exempt from discharge under 11 U.S.C. Section 523(a)(8). Get rid of that Section entirely. That way people who are truly broken under the weight of their student loans can seek relief under Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 and get their debt discharged.

It makes no logical sense that I can get my client's back taxes discharged in bankruptcy (presuming they came due in the last three years and were filed timely) but that I cannot get rid of these loan obligations.

I love that you're looking at the bigger picture.