• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:#310]Any person who uses any drug, medicinal article or instrument for the purpose of preventing conception shall be fined not less than fifty'

Here is the UK version of civil asset forfeiture.
Under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (POCA), a police or customs officer can seize £1000 and upwards from an individual, providing there is sufficient reason to believe the cash was illegally obtained or will be used illegally.

I don't think it's used very often here and as far as I know the money has to be kept in a locked account so isn't a way for the local force to raise funds which I think is how the money is used in the US.

I could be completely wrong though.
 
Thanks for the reference. The essence of forfeiture is that the "thing" - money or property - is the product of ill-gotten gains. We don't let bank robbers keep the proceeds of their thefts, do we? On the other hand, too many departments and agencies abuse the process. I have a problem when property, legitimately owned, is seized on the pretext it is "being used" to facilitate a crime, like seizing the car or cash from a prostitute's customer, or raiding a bank account, unless there is overwhelming evidence it didn't come from a legitimate source.

There'snplenty of videos of people with large amounts of cash but they also have completely reasonable reasons for having it.
Having large sums of money is not a crime in itself and when you have just taken it out of the bank and can say exactly what that money is for then it's really shocking that the police can just sieze it and then stonewall any attempts to get the money back to its rightful owner.

As I've said before the lawyer Steve Lehto has done loads of videos about completely innocent people having money basically stolen from them by the police and even when a judge tells the local police to give it back they often don't bother even then.

It really is a shocking abuse of power where the police can just decide that just because you want to buy a car from a private buyer in cash that if they stop you for any reason they can swipe that money and claim it's obviously the result of crime.
 
I don't think it's used very often here and as far as I know the money has to be kept in a locked account so isn't a way for the local force to raise funds which I think is how the money is used in the US.

I could be completely wrong though.
In the US to get money back from a asset forfeiture seizure you must prove the money was not used, or part of, a criminal activity.
Which as you might guess is tough to do.
The police department which seized the money can keep up to about 80% of it even if no criminal charges are ever filed against you.
That is the part that seems the most wrong.
 
Thanks for the reference. The essence of forfeiture is that the "thing" - money or property - is the product of ill-gotten gains. We don't let bank robbers keep the proceeds of their thefts, do we? On the other hand, too many departments and agencies abuse the process. I have a problem when property, legitimately owned, is seized on the pretext it is "being used" to facilitate a crime, like seizing the car or cash from a prostitute's customer, or raiding a bank account, unless there is overwhelming evidence it didn't come from a legitimate source.
I would agree.
And in the US even if no criminal charges are ever filed against you, it is almost impossible for you to get back any seized money or assets.
That is the part of the US law that I find difficult to justify.
 
I would say less than that.
IMO, abortions should not be available once the fetus's brain starts to form,
As long as we're picking arbitrary dates... I'll stick with mine - when the baby is born. At that point it is no longer speculation.
 
I'm still not with you.
What is sarcasm? "the use of irony to mock or convey contempt." In order to convey such contempt, one must have the ability to understand the underlying circumstance - to reason it out - to understand what is ironic about it. If one can't do that basic reasoning, expressing sarcasm is far beyond their abilities.
 
I would say less than that.
IMO, abortions should not be available once the fetus's brain starts to form,
THe brain is hardly functional when it begins to form. A better time is when it is capable of perception, at about 29 weeks gestation.
 
This thread has gotten so far afield that I completely forgot which thread I was responding to... and I started the thread!
 
I beg to differ, friend. We got it from you. :)

NWRatCon:

Yes you did get it through British Common Law but this tradition was declared illegal by your own constitution. The tradition was the "bills of attainder", explicitly forbidden by your constitution.

There were other traditions like Anglo-Saxon "noxal" and Norman "deodands" where in rem actions were taken against farm animals or property which had killed a subject of the crown but these are not linked to modern-day US Civil Forefeinure laws. The only other tradition that I could find was forfeiture of properties and titles after the in personum conviction of subjects for treason against the crown.


Hit the download button to see the full PDF essay.

So the link to British law and through that to Roman, and biblical law is not proved in my eyes. What say you?

My apologies for freading the tangent from your excellent OP.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
Thanks for the reference. The essence of forfeiture is that the "thing" - money or property - is the product of ill-gotten gains. We don't let bank robbers keep the proceeds of their thefts, do we? On the other hand, too many departments and agencies abuse the process. I have a problem when property, legitimately owned, is seized on the pretext it is "being used" to facilitate a crime, like seizing the car or cash from a prostitute's customer, or raiding a bank account, unless there is overwhelming evidence it didn't come from a legitimate source.
There is also the issue of how the forfeiture laws are applied.

I know of a guy who owned a one-plane charter service. For a fee, he would fly passengers almost anywhere and on their schedule.

One day, he flew some folks to Acapulco, Mexico. When they returned to the U.S., one of the passengers was searched by customs officials and was found to be in possession of a substantial quantity of heroin.

The local police department seized his aircraft, claiming he was part of an ongoing criminal enterprise. However, they never actually charged him with a crime. Just took his plane, his sole source of income. His choices were let them have the plane, or demand charges be brought so he could fight them in a trial (all without expensive lawyers) and risk prison time. He decided to forego clearing his name. He had a wife and kids to think about. The police just stole his plane.

If a commercial aircraft is used to transport drugs into the U.S., the government would never consider seizing the assets of say, United Airlines. First, because United Airlines has million-dollar lawyers on retainer that would rip the government's case to shreds and then counter-sue. But when it comes to the little guy, well that's a different story.
 
'Any person who uses any drug, medicinal article or instrument for the purpose of preventing conception shall be fined not less than fifty dollars or imprisoned not less than sixty days nor more than one year or be both fined and imprisoned.' Section 54—196, General Statutes of Connecticut (1958 rev.)

This was the statute that was struck down by the Supreme Court in 1965 in Griswold v. Connecticut. In doing so, the Supreme Court stated, "This law... operates directly on an intimate relation of husband and wife and their physician's role in one aspect of that relation." As the Court then put it, "We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights older than our political parties, older than our school system." We are on the precipice of laws such as this being reinstated around the country. Do we want to be?

The Court rested its decision on the concept that "specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance." It is the same basis that informed the Court's decision in Roe v. Wade. But three of the then-Justices, in concurrence, went further and specifically addressed the Ninth Amendment's application to the issue: "My conclusion that the concept of liberty is not so restricted and that it embraces the right of marital privacy though that right is not mentioned explicitly in the Constitution1 is supported both by numerous decisions of this Court, referred to in the Court's opinion, and by the language and history of the Ninth Amendment." ('The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.')

The concurrence noted that "The language and history of the Ninth Amendment reveal that the Framers of the Constitution believed that there are additional fundamental rights, protected from governmental infringement, which exist alongside those fundamental rights specifically mentioned in the first eight constitutional amendments." They concluded "the Framers did not intend that the first eight amendments be construed to exhaust the basic and fundamental rights which the Constitution guaranteed to the people."

I have always preferred the concurrence's argument over the "penumbra" argument, as it stands on firmer footing. I think almost anyone would agree that privacy is a fundamental interest of all of us, even if it is not explicitly stated in the Constitution's "Bill of Rights". As the concurrence notes, "The Ninth Amendment simply shows the intent of the Constitution's authors that other fundamental personal rights should not be denied such protection or disparaged in any other way simply because they are not specifically listed in the first eight constitutional amendments. I do not see how this broadens the authority of the Court; rather it serves to support what this Court has been doing in protecting fundamental rights."

How are we to protect fundamental rights from governmental erasure if we don't acknowledge that the Constitution is broader than its four corners?
NWRatCon:

Regarding your question which is now bolded by me above:

By removing the process of choosing or vetoing senior judicial appointments from the hands of partisan politicians.
By voting such governments out of power when they attack fundamental rights not explicitly enumerated in the constitution.
By taking to "the out of doors" (streets) and protesting to paralyse the economy and transportation when such fundamental rights predation threatens to happen.
By creative but non-violent, leaderless rebellions organised digitally to do the above.
By armed rebellion and if successful, revolution.

Rights can be defended by constitutions, but when constitutions are left in tatters then political defence of rights must kick in. That is where America is right now.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
:eek: offtopic
NWRatCon:

Yes you did get it through British Common Law but this tradition was declared illegal by your own constitution. The tradition was the "bills of attainder", explicitly forbidden by your constitution.

There were other traditions like Anglo-Saxon "noxal" and Norman "deodands" where in rem actions were taken against farm animals or property which had killed a subject of the crown but these are not linked to modern-day US Civil Forefeinure laws. The only other tradition that I could find was forfeiture of properties and titles after the in personum conviction of subjects for treason against the crown.


Hit the download button to see the full PDF essay.

So the link to British law and through that to Roman, and biblical law is not proved in my eyes. What say you?

My apologies for freading the tangent from your excellent OP.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
I'll take one more trip down that rabbit hole:
Actually, having litigated forfeiture cases in numerous venues, through both federal and State appellate courts, the English common law is still very much the basis for forfeiture laws. A Bill of Attainder is a somewhat different specie than a forfeiture determination under existing precedents. The theory is that the thing - res - is forfeited by usage, or was obtained by unlawful means, and thus never owned by the possessor. I am much more in favor of the latter approach than the former. The "usage" approach leads to very much abuse, as I noted earlier. A third basis, of course, is when the thing itself is contraband. e.g., drugs or firearms.

I think this could be a great discussion for another thread.

:)
 
[
When human ovum enters the fallopian tubes, it is alive. It only dies by neglect. What about the living ovum's right to life? We need Texas to get on that.
I usually enjoy sarcasm, but this is too close what is about to come from the SC to enjoy. Rights for many people, not just women, are going to be held hostage to the insanity of a small group of religious fanatics. We have always had these people with us. They used to inhabit little churches at the edge of town where they talked to each other about commie conspiracies, a world filled with sinners and "Them over-ejicated know-it -alls". They were nut jobs and we called them nut jobs. Why do we now elect them to Congress. They do not represent our views and they are still nut jobs.
 
Great, so that must also include financial privacy as well, meaning the government has no business knowing how much money someone makes or how they made it.
wrong, because the Constitution specifically gives the right to levy taxes.
 
If this individual “right to privacy” exists then why does it not apply to recreational drug use? What in this individual “right to privacy” allegedly connected (or limited) it to matters of marriage and/or sexual relations?
I agree with this. If a person wants to use drugs, that is on them. Is it stupid to use drugs for recreative purpose...yeah....but it isn't anyone else's business....
 
I honestly don't understand how civil asset forfeiture is even slightly legal.
We don't have anything similar in the UK.
Sure we can be fined but that's done by courts. The police can't just take stuff on the pretense that it may be involved in some unknown crime, thats blatant theft.
what about after conviction? Can the person's property be seized? What about in civil lawsuits? Can the courts seize their property to satisfy the debt? Can you be imprisoned for not paying your bills?
 
what about after conviction? Can the person's property be seized? What about in civil lawsuits? Can the courts seize their property to satisfy the debt? Can you be imprisoned for not paying your bills?

As far as I know a court has to decide on the amount of any seizure and anything aelse is given back straight away.
I don't think people go to prison for not paying bills as this is taken into account when fining people.
The court will set fines at a level that won't cause someone to go into debt because of basic living cost bills especially if you have kids.
This means some even small fines may end up being payable over years or oven just scrapped if the person honestly has very little spare cash and paying the fine would make them homeless for instance.

As for siezing property yes, if someone who has the means to pay but simply refuses to pay money owed after a civil or crown case we can send in the bailifs (there's actually a daytime tv program about this process) who are backed by law to sieze property which is sold to settle the outstanding debt.
This is also done against companies large and small as some people seem to think they can just not pay and the case will just magically go away.
 
Modern birth control is more of a "human contrivance" than money is. Money goes back 5000 years.

Surely birth control as a concept goes back to the begining of human history?
Even hunter gatherer societies will only allow as many people as that area can actually support so will limit the number of births?
 
If this individual “right to privacy” exists then why does it not apply to recreational drug use? What in this individual “right to privacy” allegedly connected (or limited) it to matters of marriage and/or sexual relations?

Very few drugs other than pot are still used in their "as grown" form. They are have been subjected to highly technical manufacturing processes to concentrate their pain killing power. Their addictive power is equally high. Their production is controlled by huge pharmaceutical corporations with a greater interest in making money than in providing pharmaceutical products to the medical field. I lived in a rural state with high unemployment that was targeted by the drug industry for profiteering from addiction. The result was not private use became a major public problem. The devastation to families was enormous. Overdose deaths skyrocketed. Unemployment, poverty, crime, mental and physical health problems increased. These targeted areas ceased to function rationally.

Control of addictive pain killers is necessary.
 
Thanks for the reference. The essence of forfeiture is that the "thing" - money or property - is the product of ill-gotten gains. We don't let bank robbers keep the proceeds of their thefts, do we? On the other hand, too many departments and agencies abuse the process. I have a problem when property, legitimately owned, is seized on the pretext it is "being used" to facilitate a crime, like seizing the car or cash from a prostitute's customer, or raiding a bank account, unless there is overwhelming evidence it didn't come from a legitimate source.
I know this really isn’t a civil asset forfeiture thread but the topic is a particular sore point with me.

My understanding is that civil asset forfeiture is often used prior to conviction. Is that actually the case? If so that throws the presumption of innocence out the window. I understand that asset forfeiture is a civil proceeding so technically you are on solid footing doing so but that is still offensive - or should be - to our basic notions of fairness and justice.
 
Very few drugs other than pot are still used in their "as grown" form. They are have been subjected to highly technical manufacturing processes to concentrate their pain killing power. Their addictive power is equally high. Their production is controlled by huge pharmaceutical corporations with a greater interest in making money than in providing pharmaceutical products to the medical field. I lived in a rural state with high unemployment that was targeted by the drug industry for profiteering from addiction. The result was not private use became a major public problem. The devastation to families was enormous. Overdose deaths skyrocketed. Unemployment, poverty, crime, mental and physical health problems increased. These targeted areas ceased to function rationally.

Control of addictive pain killers is necessary.

Prohibition without adequate demand side (simple illegal possession) enforcement is assured to fail.
 
Imagine that....people intent on shitting on explicitly stated rights directly listed in the Constitution are upset because rights NOT found in the Constitution arent being respected to the level they think they should be.
 
Back
Top Bottom