Another Good Guy with a Gun...

[Rich2018]

Psst....

From the time in which the UK and Australia banned guns the murder rate in the US has declined faster than in those two countries which banned firearms.

So the more violent UK has had one mass shooting since the last gun control legislation in 1997


The less violent USA has just experienced the most number of massing shootings in a year ever.

More than one per day in 2019.

 

[TurtleDude]

Psst....

From the time in which the UK and Australia banned guns the murder rate in the US has declined faster than in those two countries which banned firearms.

murder rates have almost nothing to do with the true motivations of gun banners. Forcefully seizing guns would cause lots of good people to be killed in the USA and a bunch of bad ones as well.

 

[Rich2018]

I suspect if you try to penalize all those who would resist such idiocy, pretty soon there would be no one left either enforcing such laws or having the stomach to pass anything else like that.

You suspect wrong.


People will stand in line to hand in their guns like they did in the UK and Australia.

 

[Rich2018]

...forcefully seizing guns would cause lots of good people to be killed in the USA and a bunch of bad ones as well.

No it wouldn't


How come it didn't in the more violent UK and Australia

Are no murder rates in the USA decreasing ?

 

[TurtleDude]

What about the two worshippers he killed ?


Surely they're more important.

Surely we should ban all guns to prevent this kind of thing happening ? You know, like in the UK.


You seem to be saying that it's OK for a gunman to shoot up a church and kill members of the congregation so long as he's killed.

your stupid proposals would have meant that the criminal was armed but none of the parishioners would have been

 

[TurtleDude]

You suspect wrong.


People will stand in line to hand in their guns like they did in the UK and Australia.

There is a reason why we threw off Britain and Australia never really did. In areas of the USA where gun owners were required to register currently owned guns to comply with a grandfather clause, the compliance is generally less than 20%.

 

[Rich2018]

There is a reason why we threw off Britain...

Yes it was to make more $$$ by the middle class


Australia never did but what would you give for Australian levels of gun violence and the number of mass shootings ?


How many Australian churches were subject to a gun attack in 2019 ?

your stupid proposals would have meant that the criminal was armed but none of the parishioners would have been

No it would have meant that no-one was armed

You proposals resulted in two worshipers dead. And you talk about "stupid"

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes it was to make more $$$ by the middle class


Australia never did but what would you give for Australian levels of gun violence and the number of mass shootings ?


How many Australian churches were subject to a gun attack in 2019 ?





No it would have meant that no-one was armed

You proposals resulted in two worshipers dead. And you talk about "stupid"

that is idiotic to claim that gun bans would have done anything other than disarm the victims.

 

[Rich2018]

that is idiotic to claim that gun bans would have done anything other than disarm the victims.

Where do criminals get their guns ?


Do you think they wish them into existence ?

 

[TurtleDude]

Where do criminals get their guns ?


Do you think they wish them into existence ?

often from the state, federal and local governments

 

[Rich2018]

often from the state, federal and local governments

So if they were banned from transferring guns to private ownership ?

 

[TurtleDude]

So if they were banned from transferring guns to private ownership ?

uh those guns are lost or stolen. The US government "lost" over 15,000 M16 rifles in 1989

 

[Rich2018]

uh those guns are lost or stolen. The US government "lost" over 15,000 M16 rifles in 1989

So a greater level of house keeping is required.

The British Army doesn't lose that kind of number even when proportionately adjusted.


Scope for lessons to be learned from the country you "got rid of" ?

 

[TurtleDude]

So a greater level of house keeping is required.

The British Army doesn't lose that kind of number even when proportionately adjusted.


Scope for lessons to be learned from the country you "got rid of" ?

how do you know that?

 

[Rich2018]

how do you know that?

Because there are no reports of it and being a part of the British Army for 15 years, I know how tightly guns are regulated.

I'm not saying that no British soldier has ever lost a gun, just not on the US scale you alluded to.

 

[TurtleDude]

Because there are no reports of it and being a part of the British Army for 15 years, I know how tightly guns are regulated.

I';m not saying that no British soldier has never lost a gun, just not on the US scale you alluded to.

the only reason I know about the 15K is someone I worked with on a case was part of the investigatory team. Its not information your average soldier or even some general officers know. And American Police lose handguns all the time, and firearms seized from criminals or evidence are routinely "lost" as well.

in other words, even if this country were to go completely insane and ban private firearms completely (and the people who did that managed to stay above ground and in office), there is a ready stream of supply that can be diverted by criminals

 

[Rich2018]

the only reason I know about the 15K is someone I worked with on a case was part of the investigatory team. Its not information your average soldier or even some general officers know. And American Police lose handguns all the time, and firearms seized from criminals or evidence are routinely "lost" as well.

in other words, even if this country were to go completely insane and ban private firearms completely (and the people who did that managed to stay above ground and in office), there is a ready stream of supply that can be diverted by criminals

Then better house keeping is required, and I remain a tad skeptical that the US military "loses" that many guns...are there no investigatory procedures?.

 

[TurtleDude]

Then better house keeping is required, and I remain a tad skeptical that the US military "loses" that many guns...are there no investigatory procedures?.

of course there are investigations. US troops have been in combat actions for decades. weapons are lost in operations all the time.

 

[Rich2018]

of course there are investigations. US troops have been in combat actions for decades. weapons are lost in operations all the time.

You just said you're not talking about those guns - losses that ordinary soldiers would be aware of.

In 15 years in the British Army I am aware of only one case of a gun (actually 4 guns) being lost and they were recovered after a search.

 

[TurtleDude]

You just said you're not talking about those guns - losses that ordinary soldiers would be aware of.

In 15 years in the British Army I am aware of only one case of a gun (actually 4 guns) being lost and they were recovered after a search.

anecdotal evidence that is not applicable to the USA

 

[Fledermaus]

Repeal 2nd amendment
Make private ownership of guns and/or ammunition illegal
Make the sale of guns and ammunition to private owners illegal
Seize privately owned guns and ammunition
Penalize those who resist.

Caveat: Allow some firearms like single shot rifles or muzzle loaders (basically something like British gun laws)

How very fascist of you.

 

[Fledermaus]

You just said you're not talking about those guns - losses that ordinary soldiers would be aware of.

In 15 years in the British Army I am aware of only one case of a gun (actually 4 guns) being lost and they were recovered after a search.

Losses by the US Army in Somalia were noted.

They tried to blame the Marines there for their losses.

 

[Fledermaus]

Because there are no reports of it and being a part of the British Army for 15 years, I know how tightly guns are regulated.

I'm not saying that no British soldier has ever lost a gun, just not on the US scale you alluded to.

More than 300 rifles, pistols and machine guns have been stolen or lost at British Army bases since 2006, it was claimed today. Soldiers either lost the firearms or sold them on the black market illegally, sometimes to criminals.Dec 15, 2011

 

[Rich2018]

anecdotal evidence that is not applicable to the USA

Moving the goal posts.


What kind of gun "losses" are you talking about ?


If it's losses in the field, then yes, Id say the US military has a lot to learn from "the country it got rid of"

 

[Rich2018]

How very fascist of you.

Interestingly, gun owners accuse those in favor of gun control of being "liberals"

Or are you another who thinks Hitler and Stalin were "liberals" ?

Losses by the US Army in Somalia were noted.

How many?
I don't recall any instances of the British Army losing large numbers of guns, I'm sure an individual soldier has but to lose the content of an armory ?

Someone could use some lessons from those who know what they're doing

More than 300 rifles, pistols and machine guns have been stolen or lost at British Army bases since 2006, it was claimed today. Soldiers either lost the firearms or sold them on the black market illegally, sometimes to criminals.Dec 15, 2011

Source ?

I know from personal experience what happens when a weapon goes missing.