And so it begins...

[Obscurity]

As did trump himself...

Yes, Trump did admit it. He's so ****ing stupid. And smug. HE is smugly admitting to his dumbfounded, glassy eyed, socially conservative voters, that he does not trust them to make a vote for him. He doesn't trust the american people.

He is stuffing it right in their faces.

 

[Pound4abrown]

Collins just admitted he doesn't understand what constitutional scholars do.

 

[Obscurity]

Collins just admitted he doesn't understand what constitutional scholars do.

Collins is an idiot and a fist pounding idiot.

Just like Gym Shorts Jordan and his ass raping cover up self.

 

[Napoleon]

Nonsense. Trump DIRECTED Zelensky to talk to Rudy. Do you think Rudy was operating on his own?

What you and the right wing want is everyone to suspend common sense.

I reject this notion and declare it to be total idiocy.

We all know exactly what happened here, gamesmanship and angle shooting doesn't change that fact.

Logical deduction does not an impeachment case make. If you fail to conclusively prove that Giuliani’s orders regarding the quid pro quo were ultimately directed by the President then you open the door to the same plausible deniability that saw Regan walk away unscathed by Iran-Contra. If you don’t do the due diligence then there’s no evidence here of anything other than Rudy Giuliani abusing his position to pursue his own interests in Ukraine and he’s not the one you’re trying to impeach.

 

[bradt99]

I tuned in just in time to hear the first guy lead with his conclusion: IMPEACH TRUMP!!!

That told me all I need to know about this circus performance.

Moving on...

Exactly and if they want to impeach Trump that badly, get over it so the president can be acquitted in the senate.

 

[Pound4abrown]

That might be why they did subpoena him for documents rather than testimony, but he has defied that subpoena for over two months and Congress has not sought to enforce it.

And they should. I am not sure why Dems are so feckless in certain areas.

 

[GDViking]

“Hunter Biden” is the new “Hillary’s emails.”

Yip somebody actually maybe though about an investigation that had nothing to do with Bidens kid, but their was no investigation happening when Biden followed presidential orders to twist some arms and make eukraine clean up their corruption, before we gave them nearly a billion dollars.

And for cultists that is in some way more corrupt than not only accepting foreign assistance, but demanding it...

 

[Pound4abrown]

Collins didn't get the memo that the reason the Ukraine money was originally set for release was they did what they needed regarding corruption, which was written in the the bill for aid.

 

[Mach]

Interesting if Republicans will agree that impeachment is moving too fast. It was three months between the arrival of the Starr Report and the vote to pass articles of impeachment. We’re coming up on three months now.

Well to be fair, Starr ran his "investigation" for four years before that report (he moonlighted only doing the investigations part time..you know, more important things to do).
This phase of the investigation (Ukraine) has been fairly quick. We all would like to hear from Mick, Pompeo, see all the requested records, etc., but it takes time in the courts.

I think some Democrats fear that a key problem with the Mueller investigation not building more support was the long duration. I disagree, it was extraordinarily limited in scope, secret, unable to get Trump to testify, removed the counter-intelligence portion, and was limited by DOJ not to indict a president from the start. Mueller could not indict Trump, he couldn't follow the money, and he couldn't break Manafort or Stone who both will go to federal prison in defense of Trump...both who seem to believe the wait for a pardon is worth it. It was over before it began. If Stone/Manafort gave up KK and Trump, instead of obstructing, Republicans would still deny it, and we'd be in the same place anyway....no remedy unless impeachment. And we'd be what, relying on two corrupt witnesses to condemn Trump for conspiracy to win the 2016? They'd attack Manafort/Stone and it would be the same story as now. The duration was largely irrelevant.

 

[Irwin Corey]

I think the Democrats should take Turley's advice and take "Executive Privilege" to court and get Pompeo, Mulvaney, Perry, Giuliani in front of congress and let them testify.

Taylor is a very good actor, just my observation.

 

[Mach]

Yes. But the problem is that they failed to prove that the quid pro quo was directed by Trump. The one person who could do that is Rudy Giuliani and his testimony has not been subpoenaed.

You believe it's reasonable to doubt it came from Trump? Do tell.

 

[Obscurity]

Logical deduction does not an impeachment case make. If you fail to conclusively prove that Giuliani’s orders regarding the quid pro quo were ultimately directed by the President then you open the door to the same plausible deniability that saw Regan walk away unscathed by Iran-Contra. If you don’t do the due diligence then there’s no evidence here of anything other than Rudy Giuliani abusing his position to pursue his own interests in Ukraine and he’s not the one you’re trying to impeach.

Again. You would have us all suspend common sense and decency in an assault on the intelligence of everyone in the entire nation.

Par for the course, I suppose.

Then again, I see the evidence for what it is, and, I fully expect, there -will- be a confirmation Trump ordered it.

 

[less right]

Collins didn't get the memo that the reason the Ukraine money was originally set for release was they did what they needed regarding corruption, which was written in the the bill for aid.

One question not being addressed is: If Trump was withholding funds to ensure Ukraine was taking steps to fight corruption, what steps did they take that made the difference to Trump?

Apparently he was willing to dismiss his 'legal requirement' to ensure compliance.

 

[Napoleon]

You believe it's reasonable to doubt it came from Trump? Do tell.

Based on the evidence and testimony so far - yes. What we have evidence of is Trump instructing his subordinates to take direction on Ukranian foreign policy from Rudy Giuliani and of Rudi Guiliani directing a quid pro quo. There is no testimony or documented evidence directly linking the quid pro quo to the President. That’s the problem with middlemen. If you want to go after a mob boss you can’t just prescribe every murder committed by someone who happens to be a henchman to him. You need direct evidence that he ordered the hit.

 

[Pound4abrown]

One question not being addressed is: If Trump was withholding funds to ensure Ukraine was taking steps to fight corruption, what steps did they take that made the difference to Trump?

Apparently he was willing to dismiss his 'legal requirement' to ensure compliance.

The only step that happened was the WB stepping up to blow the whistle, and voila! Money released.

 

[Pound4abrown]

Based on the evidence and testimony so far - yes. What we have evidence of is Trump instructing his subordinates to take direction on Ukranian foreign policy from Rudy Giuliani and of Rudi Guiliani directing a quid pro quo. There is no testimony or documented evidence directly linking the quid pro quo to the President. That’s the problem with middlemen. If you want to go after a mob boss you can’t just prescribe every murder committed by someone who happens to be a henchman to him. You need direct evidence that he ordered the hit.

So Rudy was doing whatever he was doing unfettered from Trump?
Sorry, people leave or get fired for not toeing Trump's line. There is ZERO chance that this didn't come from Trump himself. Z-E-R-O.

 

[Napoleon]

So Rudy was doing whatever he was doing unfettered from Trump?
Sorry, people leave or get fired for not toeing Trump's line. There is ZERO chance that this didn't come from Trump himself. Z-E-R-O.

That is the same assumption the witnesses made and I understand why they made it. But assumptions aren’t evidence. There’s nothing to say that Giuliani wasn’t just leveraging a quid pro quo to pursue his own interests in Ukraine - of which he has many. Why the resistance to making a complete and watertight case by proving that the order did ultimately come from the President? Not with assumptions, but with hard evidence. That’s what Congress should be doing instead of just saying, well somebody assumed something so it must be true.

 

[Pound4abrown]

That is the same assumption the witnesses made and I understand why they made it. But assumptions aren’t evidence. There’s nothing to say that Giuliani wasn’t just leveraging a quid pro quo to pursue his own interests in Ukraine - of which he has many. Why the resistance to making a complete and watertight case by proving that the order did ultimately come from the President? Not with assumptions, but with hard evidence.

Is Trump still POTUS?
Even if your theory holds water, Trump allowed it, until he realized there was a WB and that he was "****ed" and his "presidency was over" (quotes are my inference to what he might have said when he heard about the WB).

 

[Craig234]

Not really as that question should have never been asked as it had nothing to do with the american government, that was a private issue between Clinton, his wife and Monica, it was none of our ****ing business, and I am still disappointed that Clinton didn't respond with those exact words.

Yes they trapped Clinton into lying under oath.

Trump is refusing to comply with clear laws, and clearly obstructing justice.

There is so much more evidence against trump than any other president to be Impeached...

Any discussion of the Clinton issue should include a few pertinent facts, including that there was a whole team of private lawyers in a 'get Clinton' squad, who called themselves the 'elves'; that there's a good case Clinton should never have been asked about Monica under oath; and that Clinton used the phrase 'sexual relations' in his statement, which was the same term used in his trial defined as including sexual intercourse but not oral sex, raising an issue about his 'technically telling the truth'. Certainly he was not volunteering information about oral sex, but there's an argument whether he had to be, despite his agreeing to a plea deal. And the lie involving personal behavior, not the national interest, is relevant to impeachment. It was pure Republican abuse of power.

 

[Napoleon]

Is Trump still POTUS?
Even if your theory holds water, Trump allowed it, until he realized there was a WB and that he was "****ed" and his "presidency was over" (quotes are my inference to what he might have said when he heard about the WB).

Interestingly enough, Sondland’s testimony was that while a quid pro quo existed as directed by Giuliani the President insisted it did not. So there isn’t even hard evidence that Trump contemporaneously knew about it let alone directed it. That’s why Giuliani was subpoenaed for documents but that thread has strangely not been pursued by Congress since they issued it.

 

[Mach]

Based on the evidence and testimony so far - yes. What we have evidence of is Trump instructing his subordinates to take direction on Ukranian foreign policy from Rudy Giuliani and of Rudi Guiliani directing a quid pro quo. There is no testimony or documented evidence directly linking the quid pro quo to the President. That’s the problem with middlemen. If you want to go after a mob boss you can’t just prescribe every murder committed by someone who happens to be a henchman to him. You need direct evidence that he ordered the hit.

The transcript is of Trump directly asking Zelinsky for a "favor though".
Rudy cannot hold up OMB and OMB doesn't answer to Rudy...Mick said it was held up because POTUS was concerned about Ukraine. Not Rudy.
Rudy was "acting on behalf" of POTUS.
U.S. government officials were being directed to Rudy, by POTUS.
And every single one of these witness you falsely claim would seal the deal for you, have been ordered by POTUS not to cooperate, even under subpoena.
I don't see that you're being honest.

As has been discussed, even if Rudy claims Trump directed him, you'll be here saying it's just he-said-she-said between Trump and Rudy...still reasonable doubt!
If Rudy is charged, oh boy, then who cares what that crook says, he's trying to save himself...we've heard it all before Napolean, with Manafort and Stone and Flynn, etc., etc.

Stop acting like you have some bar that can reasonably be reached to evidence his (obvious) guilt for you...there is none.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Just a repeat of the last hearings. They have absolutely nothing, so it's all about yelling, being petulant, and pulling stunts.

They're doing all that mafia lawyer stuff and trying to string this out as long as possible.

It's not a bad strategy for a bunch of crooks.

 

[Mach]

That is the same assumption the witnesses made and I understand why they made it. But assumptions aren’t evidence. There’s nothing to say that Giuliani wasn’t just leveraging a quid pro quo to pursue his own interests in Ukraine - of which he has many. Why the resistance to making a complete and watertight case by proving that the order did ultimately come from the President? Not with assumptions, but with hard evidence. That’s what Congress should be doing instead of just saying, well somebody assumed something so it must be true.

Rudy has no authority to withhold aid, it was Trump.
Rudy has no authority to a WH meeting, it was Trump.
Rudy was not on the call asking Zelinksky for a favor though, it was Trump.
Rudy was not directing Trump's staff to coordinate with Rudy, it was Trump.

Rudy WAS meeting with four indicted felons...Firtash, Parnas, Fruman, and Paul Manafort.
Rudy is also now under criminal investigation.

A mountain of evidence, and you persist.

 

[Pound4abrown]

Interestingly enough, Sondland’s testimony was that while a quid pro quo existed as directed by Giuliani the President insisted it did not. So there isn’t even hard evidence that Trump contemporaneously knew about it let alone directed it. That’s why Giuliani was subpoenaed for documents but that thread has strangely not been pursued by Congress since they issued it.

So you believe that Rudy was going rogue and Trump was oblivious?
That is an even scarier prospect, if you ask me.

 

[TurtleDude]

So the judiciary committee has begun their hearings, and the Republicans are doing nothing but making fools of themselves and trying every trick in the book to obstruct this procedure...

the dog and pony show is a waste of tax dollars as the petulant losers try to undo the 2016 election.