Amnesty: Almost 2,400 executed in 2008

RightinNYC said:

The point is that including the US in that group of countries without noting the disparity is disingenuous at best and misleading at worst.

Say there are 100 people participating in a hot dog eating contest. The top person eats 75 hot dogs, the second eats 73, the third eats 70 and the fourth eats 65. The other 96 people are all lightweights, eating amounts ranging from 0 to 7.

Now, pretend that competitor number five is a famous person and that I'm a reporter who doesn't particularly like competitor number five and has in fact gotten into a lot of arguments with him. Further pretend that I have a history of seeking to get my articles on the front page by writing bad things about competitor number five in particular, and I know that implying that he's a fatass that eats a lot of hot dogs is a great way to do that.

Now, I could write an article saying that "the top five competitors combined to eat 290 hot dogs, 93% of the total" and I would be 100% accurate. However, wouldn't that article be somewhat misleading in that it would be lumping the fifth competitor in with the top four without noting the huge disparity in consumption between the top four and the fifth? Wouldn't you be suspicious of my motives in doing so?

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I understand your view, but you would have to find reportable countries comparable to the U.S. to say that the U.S. is being hand picked from a slew of other countries to represent the 5th slot.

According to the article (reposted since the OP link isn't working):

Article said:

Fifty-nine countries retain the death penalty. But only 25 of them carried out executions in 2008. In Europe, only one country carried out the death sentence: Belarus, where four people were executed last year.

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Of those countries, the U.S. falls into the top five. I agree that 39 isn't that many executed, but it's still a notable figure from an organization that is universally against the death penalty and has internally declared it a human rights issue.

I think objectors to this article are seeing an argument against the U.S. where one doesn't exist. You are essentially anticipating an anti-U.S. or anti-death penalty argument... but I don't see that at all. All I see are numbers. It's just like when people say that the U.S. and China are the world's worse polluters... Americans get offended by being compared to the Chinese, but the figures aren't about your national pride, they're about reality.

Orius said:

I understand your view, but you would have to find reportable countries comparable to the U.S. to say that the U.S. is being hand picked from a slew of other countries to represent the 5th slot.

According to the article (reposted since the OP link isn't working):

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I'm not saying that the numbers themselves have been misrepresented, as I fully believe that based on the statistics they compiled, we're the fifth highest. My objection is to the way they're presented, not the content.

Of those countries, the U.S. falls into the top five. I agree that 39 isn't that many executed, but it's still a notable figure from an organization that is universally against the death penalty and has internally declared it a human rights issue.

I think objectors to this article are seeing an argument against the U.S. where one doesn't exist. You are essentially anticipating an anti-U.S. or anti-death penalty argument... but I don't see that at all. All I see are numbers. It's just like when people say that the U.S. and China are the world's worse polluters... Americans get offended by being compared to the Chinese, but the figures aren't about your national pride, they're about reality.

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I just don't think that's the case. Neither I, nor the other posters objecting, perceive the 39 executions as something to be ashamed of. In fact, as many people mentioned, we are completely content with that number and wouldn't object to it being a bit higher.

The objection comes from the fact that an organization with a long history of trying to paint the US as a bad guy is continuing on that path in a less than forthright manner.

RightinNYC said:

I'm not saying that the numbers themselves have been misrepresented, as I fully believe that based on the statistics they compiled, we're the fifth highest. My objection is to the way they're presented, not the content.

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How are they being presented that makes it appear that way? How come you got that impression but I didn't? We're both reasonable people.

RightinNYC said:

I just don't think that's the case. Neither I, nor the other posters objecting, perceive the 39 executions as something to be ashamed of. In fact, as many people mentioned, we are completely content with that number and wouldn't object to it being a bit higher.

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I don't think you need to feel ashamed per se... I made no value judgment about what the numbers represented. Maybe I was being too coldly logical about it.

RightinNYC said:

The objection comes from the fact that an organization with a long history of trying to paint the US as a bad guy is continuing on that path in a less than forthright manner.

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I'm not sure on the details of this claim, but I'm not keen on Amnesty's politics to be honest. Maybe you are right. In any event, I must judge it on a case by case basis... I still think that people are anticipating some kind of agenda, so that's what they are seeing. As someone who likes to avoid making assumptions, I just looked at the numbers.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

I've got one question for you...

...what's "almost" 38 people? Did they execute 37 and a half, or maybe only 36 and a quarter people? Are you using the archaic Constitutional formula that defines a black person as 3/5 of a white person?

How did you get to "almost" 38?

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First, RightinNYC pointed out what I was doing:

RightinNYC said:

I think he's playing off the title of the thread.

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Also there was this:

Death Sentence Commuted In Va. Case - washingtonpost.com

There were 37 executions in the Us. Let's pretend that he's the "almost" killed 38th person so that literalists who don't get my dry sense of humor don't melt their brains trying to figure it out. :2razz:



But most importantly I was using sarcasm to point out how the article was disingenuous to include the US and Pakistan on their list of "executors" in order to get the 93% number when they could just as easily have accurately reported:

"China, along with Iran and Saudi Arabia were responsible for more than 90% of all executions in 2008"

Combined, The US and Pakistan accounted for less than 3% of the executions. Saudi Arabia had the fewest executions of the big three, and they had 45 more executions than the US and Pakistan combined. (That translates into almost 79% more executions in Saudi Arabia than the US and Pakistan combined.)


Listen, I'm not a fan of the death penalty because I don't believe the state should have the power to execute prisoners because I think it is more power than the government should have. It's something that is often associated with totalitarianism and monarchy because it is a powerful tool of subjugation. I'm for limited governmental powers. Granting the state the power to kill it's citizens, for any reason, is counter-intuitive to that belief system.

That being said, I firmly believe the article is trying to portray the US (and Pakistan for that matter) as one of the "worst" when they aren't even in the same ballpark as the other three. It's bull****.

In other words, when a person who is firmly against the death penalty is saying an article about the US variant is pulling some bull****, there is obviously some bull**** being pulled.

RightinNYC said:

The point is that including the US in that group of countries without noting the disparity is disingenuous at best and misleading at worst.

Say there are 100 people participating in a hot dog eating contest. The top person eats 75 hot dogs, the second eats 73, the third eats 70 and the fourth eats 65. The other 96 people are all lightweights, eating amounts ranging from 0 to 7.

Now, pretend that competitor number five is a famous person and that I'm a reporter who doesn't particularly like competitor number five and has in fact gotten into a lot of arguments with him. Further pretend that I have a history of seeking to get my articles on the front page by writing bad things about competitor number five in particular, and I know that implying that he's a fatass that eats a lot of hot dogs is a great way to do that.

Now, I could write an article saying that "the top five competitors combined to eat 290 hot dogs, 93% of the total" and I would be 100% accurate. However, wouldn't that article be somewhat misleading in that it would be lumping the fifth competitor in with the top four without noting the huge disparity in consumption between the top four and the fifth? Wouldn't you be suspicious of my motives in doing so?

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The only things I must add is that the US was actually fourth, Pakistan was fifth on the list, and even combined they got blown out by number three.

This article paints out BOTH the US and Pakistan as being in the same ballpark as the big three, when they literally didn't even enter the competition.

Bottom line: "you play, you pay."

Tucker Case said:

This article paints out BOTH the US and Pakistan as being in the same ballpark as the big three, when they literally didn't even enter the competition.

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Thus, my original post in this thread.