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Amid Fraud Allegations, State Election Board Won't Certify North Carolina House Race

markjs

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Amid Fraud Allegations, State Election Board Won't Certify North Carolina House Race

ap_18334681292728-48ace87307f178809a1665f613f35365c8b9f8cc-s800-c85.jpg

North Carolina Republican Mark Harris drew a number during the office room lottery on Capitol Hill in Washington on Friday. He leads Democrat Dan McCready by more than 900 votes but the state election board delayed certifying his electoral victory.
Susan Walsh/AP


Enough confusion has clouded a North Carolina congressional race that the state's Board of Elections has announced a delay to certifying Republican Mark Harris' electoral victory over Democrat Dan McCready in the state's 9th district due to "claims of irregularities and fraudulent activities."

In a 7-2 vote on Friday, the board said it will instead hold a public hearing by Dec. 21 "to assure that the election is determined without taint of fraud or corruption and without irregularities that may have changed the result." It follows a unanimous vote earlier this week to postpone election certification results.

The Friday vote fueled fresh uncertainty about the outcome of the race, and raised the possibility that a second election could ultimately be called. The two candidates are separated by 905 votes out of more than 280,000 cast, according to unofficial election results. The Associated Press originally called the race for Harris, but revoked that projection on Friday.

In a letter sent to the board of elections, North Carolina's Democratic Party made claims of wrongdoing. The Washington Post reported that the State Board of Elections and Ethics Enforcement has already collected at least six sworn statements from voters in Bladen County alleging that people came to their doors and urged them to hand over their absentee ballots.

In Bladen and Robeson counties, some 3,400 absentee ballots failed to be mailed back to election officials, according to NPR member station WFAE.

That equates to 40 percent of mail-in ballots in Bladen County and 64 percent in Robeson, according to a News & Observer analysis.

Partisan Election Officials Are 'Inherently Unfair' But Probably Here To Stay
Gerry Cohen, an elections expert in North Carolina, told WFAE that when people go through the process to request an absentee ballot, they often return them. "The return rate is usually about 80 or 90 percent," he said.

November's unreturned ballots were disproportionately associated with minorities, according to the News & Observer:

More than 40 percent of the ballots requested by African Americans and more than 60 percent of those requested by American Indians did not make it back to elections officials. For white voters, that figure was just 17 percent.

In one affidavit received by the board, a woman named Emma Shipman said she was visited by a person who claimed to be gathering absentee ballots, WFAE reported.

Shipman said she filled out the form while the woman waited outside. "She took the ballot and put it in an envelope and never sealed it or asked me to sign it. Then she left."

Collecting absentee ballots by a third party is illegal. But, Shipman said, "Because of the way she presented herself, I thought she was legitimate."

Tell us again how it's the Democrats doing voter fraud?:roll:
 

marke

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Tell us again how it's the Democrats doing voter fraud?:roll:

This is from places like Bladen County again. There were similar issues in Bladen County in the 2012 election. It does not matter who is cheating at the polls, America needs to pass stricter voting security laws and to start prosecuting those who violate those laws instead of just smoothing things over as if voter fraud does not matter.
 

JustHanging

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Tell us again how it's the Democrats doing voter fraud?:roll:

More racism from the American south? Who could have guessed?
 

Roadvirus

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North Carolina pulling a Florida?
 

Visbek

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This is from places like Bladen County again. There were similar issues in Bladen County in the 2012 election. It does not matter who is cheating at the polls, America needs to pass stricter voting security laws and to start prosecuting those who violate those laws instead of just smoothing things over as if voter fraud does not matter.
You ought to read the allegations again. The problems in North Carolina won't be fixed by laws that are designed to disenfranchise minority voters.

McRae Dowless, a campaign consultant firm hired by Harris, allegedly knocked on doors in Bladen and Robeson Counties, and urged residents to hand over absentee ballots.

After collecting them, the consultant staffers allegedly did the following:
• If the Congressional vote was left blank, they filled it in for Harris
• In some cases, they changed the vote from McReady to Harris
• In other cases, they discarded any ballots filed for McReady

40% of those altered or destroyed ballots were from African-American voters. 17% were white voters. HMMMM.

61% of Bladen County's absentee ballots went for Harris... even though only 19% of Bladen voters are registered Republicans. HMMMM.

It's already illegal to collect absentee ballots in North Carolina, precisely to avoid these kinds of abuses. We already have safeguards in place to try and detect these sorts of fraud and irregularities. And obviously, demanding identification at the polls will not fix this issue.
 

upsideguy

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This is from places like Bladen County again. There were similar issues in Bladen County in the 2012 election. It does not matter who is cheating at the polls, America needs to pass stricter voting security laws and to start prosecuting those who violate those laws instead of just smoothing things over as if voter fraud does not matter.

Are you saying they do not?

If he won't, I will. There is no evidence of wholesale voter fraud perpetrated by Democrats. Actually, there evidence of wholesale voter fraud perpetrated by Republicans either.

All serious inquiries into voter fraud have been dead-ended investigations.

https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/voter-fraud
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/06/5761...on-established-to-solve-a-nonexistent-problem
The New Republican Myth of California Voter Fraud
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-billion-ballots-cast/?utm_term=.66dda1cc3a40
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud


The allegations about voter fraud in NC are not about people voting at the voting booth, they deal with whether absentee ballots were compromised. Voter ID does not solve this "problem"

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article222362650.html
 

marke

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You ought to read the allegations again. The problems in North Carolina won't be fixed by laws that are designed to disenfranchise minority voters.

McRae Dowless, a campaign consultant firm hired by Harris, allegedly knocked on doors in Bladen and Robeson Counties, and urged residents to hand over absentee ballots.

After collecting them, the consultant staffers allegedly did the following:
• If the Congressional vote was left blank, they filled it in for Harris
• In some cases, they changed the vote from McReady to Harris
• In other cases, they discarded any ballots filed for McReady

40% of those altered or destroyed ballots were from African-American voters. 17% were white voters. HMMMM.

61% of Bladen County's absentee ballots went for Harris... even though only 19% of Bladen voters are registered Republicans. HMMMM.

It's already illegal to collect absentee ballots in North Carolina, precisely to avoid these kinds of abuses. We already have safeguards in place to try and detect these sorts of fraud and irregularities. And obviously, demanding identification at the polls will not fix this issue.

Let's assume allegations against republicans in the district are true and let's assume allegations against democrats in the district were true in 2012. What we need to do is to stop any possibility of fraudulent voting, whether it is early multiple voting, widespread absentee ballot box stuffing, illegals voting, voting for the dead, voting in fake names registered to fake addresses, and so forth. We can do this if all crooked politicians on both sides will stop resisting the implementation of tighter security provisions. Let each vote be verified as legitimate by being tagged with the last 4 numbers of the social security number associated with the name of the registered voter. That would disenfranchise nobody and would allow votes to be checked for fraudulent activity.
 

Visbek

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Let's assume allegations against republicans in the district are true and let's assume allegations against democrats in the district were true in 2012. What we need to do is to stop any possibility of fraudulent voting, whether it is early multiple voting, widespread absentee ballot box stuffing, illegals voting, voting for the dead, voting in fake names registered to fake addresses, and so forth.
No, what we should do is continue reasonable measures to ensure the integrity of the voting system, without using it as an excuse to disenfranchise voters.

The problems in 2012 and 2018 both involve absentee ballots. Not same-day voting, not polling stations in minority districts, not double voting, not undocumented immigrants trying to vote. The problems seen in 2012 and 2018 will not solved by passing laws that disenfranchise minority voters with "surgical precision."


Let each vote be verified as legitimate by being tagged with the last 4 numbers of the social security number associated with the name of the registered voter. That would disenfranchise nobody and would allow votes to be checked for fraudulent activity.
Hello? Are you not paying attention?

There were no double votes. There were no votes submitted by non-existent or dead people or with fake names. There were no fake absentee voters.

In both 2012 and 2018, the ballots were associated with actual voters. The problem is that someone showed up at the door, and corrupted those voters' absentee ballots, or later disposed of them.

By the way... The NC absentee ballot request form already requires that kind of ID. NC driver's license number, or NC ID number, or last 4 of SSN, or some other proof of residence (utility bill, government check, paycheck etc).

And again, it is already illegal to tamper with absentee ballots. Campaign staffers are not even allowed to collect them.

Got any other suggestions?
 

marke

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No, what we should do is continue reasonable measures to ensure the integrity of the voting system, without using it as an excuse to disenfranchise voters.

The problems in 2012 and 2018 both involve absentee ballots. Not same-day voting, not polling stations in minority districts, not double voting, not undocumented immigrants trying to vote. The problems seen in 2012 and 2018 will not solved by passing laws that disenfranchise minority voters with "surgical precision."



Hello? Are you not paying attention?

There were no double votes. There were no votes submitted by non-existent or dead people or with fake names. There were no fake absentee voters.

In both 2012 and 2018, the ballots were associated with actual voters. The problem is that someone showed up at the door, and corrupted those voters' absentee ballots, or later disposed of them.

By the way... The NC absentee ballot request form already requires that kind of ID. NC driver's license number, or NC ID number, or last 4 of SSN, or some other proof of residence (utility bill, government check, paycheck etc).

And again, it is already illegal to tamper with absentee ballots. Campaign staffers are not even allowed to collect them.

Got any other suggestions?

My suggestions remain the same. Find a way to tag each ballot with a number and name that can be checked for verification. If voters are disenfranchised by that then let them be disenfranchised. If each ballot is tagged to a name and a number then it can be checked against national voter records for verification that it has nt been duplicated in any other precinct and that no false names or names of illegal voters are being used.
 

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My suggestions remain the same. Find a way to tag each ballot with a number and name that can be checked for verification. If voters are disenfranchised by that then let them be disenfranchised. If each ballot is tagged to a name and a number then it can be checked against national voter records for verification that it has nt been duplicated in any other precinct and that no false names or names of illegal voters are being used.

You use the phrase NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS. Are you proposing we nationalize elections and remove them from state control and operation? What NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS are you referring to?
 

year2late

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Sounds like it will be an interesting investigation.

Should we wait for a self congratulatory lap for Trump - there is voter fraud....just not the way he was thinking.;)
 

marke

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You use the phrase NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS. Are you proposing we nationalize elections and remove them from state control and operation? What NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS are you referring to?

There should be a way to check state to state to insure voters are not voting in two or more states.
 

haymarket

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There should be a way to check state to state to insure voters are not voting in two or more states.

So I ask you again - You use the phrase NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS. Are you proposing we nationalize elections and remove them from state control and operation? What NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS are you referring to?
 

Lord Tammerlain

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My suggestions remain the same. Find a way to tag each ballot with a number and name that can be checked for verification. If voters are disenfranchised by that then let them be disenfranchised. If each ballot is tagged to a name and a number then it can be checked against national voter records for verification that it has nt been duplicated in any other precinct and that no false names or names of illegal voters are being used.

Would that not remove the anonymity that voting in elections generally requires?
 

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Would that not remove the anonymity that voting in elections generally requires?

There are obviously some major issues with the elections process. But you're right, voter anonymity would be negated should stricter rules be brought in.
I think a huge part of this problem is that in today's hyper-partisan world, people on both sides feel completely justified in playing games with the votes.
 

Visbek

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My suggestions remain the same. Find a way to tag each ballot with a number and name that can be checked for verification. If voters are disenfranchised by that then let them be disenfranchised. If each ballot is tagged to a name and a number then it can be checked against national voter records for verification that it has nt been duplicated in any other precinct and that no false names or names of illegal voters are being used.
Are you really not reading what I wrote? Let me say it again:

• North Carolina already uses unique IDs for its absentee ballots.
• There were no fake ballots used, there was no double voting. What happened is that campaign workers allegedly intercepted and corrupted legitimate ballots.


Your fix was already implemented, and it didn't solve any actual problems.

As to a national database? Guess what? The Interstate Voter Registration Crosscheck System already exists; state participation is voluntary. It uses birthday, names, and last four digits of the SSN ("SSN4"). The problem is that in a nation of 300 million voters, those demarcations are not sufficiently unique. Not only does it produce a high level of false positives, a lot of those false positives are in minority communities (surprise!) due to some names being highly common (e.g. "Juan Garcia"). Cleaning up Crosscheck requires extensive work, and the states that use Crosscheck and have done that work find that (surprise!) there is essentially no double voting.

The only real way to do this would be to have a true national database with true unique identifiers. Aside from the fact that someone has to pay for and maintain that system, the states will have to agree to use the system, lots of people will object to the system, and it's not going to solve any real issues, because double voting is not a real problem.

What you're suggesting is like prescribing insulin for a blatantly false diagnosis of heartburn. You want the US to use the wrong fix, for a non-existent problem, which in turn will harm voters. Your position makes no sense whatsoever.

I might add that your attitude towards disenfranchisement is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Since you missed it, numerous states have repeatedly misused electoral systems to disenfranchise huge swaths of voters, and that is deeply unjust and immoral. If you don't believe me, then imagine what would happen if the use of a national database repeatedly blocked YOU from voting. Somehow, I doubt your attitude would be quite so cavalier.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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There are obviously some major issues with the elections process. But you're right, voter anonymity would be negated should stricter rules be brought in.
I think a huge part of this problem is that in today's hyper-partisan world, people on both sides feel completely justified in playing games with the votes.

I expect and this is personal opinion with no evidence to back it up

I believe the biggest source of voter fraud is from absentee ballots. It is the only way for a person or small group of people to create enough votes to actually have any actual result in the outcome of the election. Outside of ballot stuffing which in North America and Western Europe should be a hard thing to do.
 

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I expect and this is personal opinion with no evidence to back it up

I believe the biggest source of voter fraud is from absentee ballots. It is the only way for a person or small group of people to create enough votes to actually have any actual result in the outcome of the election. Outside of ballot stuffing which in North America and Western Europe should be a hard thing to do.

Yup it certainly looks that way. But regulating these absentee ballots is gonna be hard to do. Its really too bad there's this pervasive "win at all costs" mentality going on. People have discarded the sanctity of the democratic election.
 

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So I ask you again - You use the phrase NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS. Are you proposing we nationalize elections and remove them from state control and operation? What NATIONAL VOTING RECORDS are you referring to?

I'm saying we should make sure each person with a name and part of a social security number does not vote in more than one state and that nobody without a partial social security number does not vote.
 

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I'm saying we should make sure each person with a name and part of a social security number does not vote in more than one state and that nobody without a partial social security number does not vote.

So do you want to nationalize federal office elections?
 

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This is from places like Bladen County again. There were similar issues in Bladen County in the 2012 election. It does not matter who is cheating at the polls, America needs to pass stricter voting security laws and to start prosecuting those who violate those laws instead of just smoothing things over as if voter fraud does not matter.

your post read like 'there is a voting problem and it needs to be fixed'

ok, so now share with us what you believe the 'fix' should look like. what specific actions will solve the voting problem you 'identified'
 
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