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That's not necessary.
When the founders wrote "endowed by their Creator" and "self evident", they were referring to a simple understanding. Everyone (extremely rare exceptions based on specific circumstance) wants to live. One cannot deny ones innate desire to live. It is natural, then, to presume that others have the same desire.
Universal (extremely rare exceptions) desires, recognized by society, are socially natural rights. They are not rights derived by imagining man alone with nature, or any kind of individual natural state. After all, rights are a social construct and thereby have no meaning without the existence of the 'other'.
Thus, some rights are natural socially. It doesn't matter if they came from a God or aliens or whatever. The important thing is that we recognize that they are self evident via simple logic and reason.
Other natural rights include freedom of religion and self defense. These are things that everyone desires. These rights are self evident.
Let's remember that when discussing natural rights, we are not discussing rights that arise from a state of nature but rights that arise naturally (self evidently) from society.
I guess I can agree with that.
The disconnect, for many people, is taking a social construct (rights) and attempting to apply it to an isolated individual in a "state of nature". The reduction of context renders an understanding of the sociological derivative of 'natural' beyond grasp.
The problem though is that Christian's want America to be a Christian Nation in order to influence the Government to enact laws that coincide with Christian beliefs (abortion, marriage etc). Thus bringing into play the structure of the government being secular.
Countless times I have heard Christians cite their lord as the place where our Rights come from not the Constitution. They believe that our laws where inspired by the bible. That our Government was designed around the bible. They are not just saying that we are a Christian Nation because there is a majority that describe themselves in a poll as Christian, they are claiming that everything that is America government and all is Christian, therefor making this a Christian Nation. They deny the Separation of Church and state claiming that everything that the government does must stand up to Christian principles.
Trying to claim that Christians only claim that our nation is Christian is intellectually dishonest.
"So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." Gary north
Gary North - Ron Paul curriculum[edit]
Gary North delivering a speech at a barbeque at Ron Paul's home in June 2013
In addition, North offers the Ron Paul Curriculum, a home school online curriculum associated with former U.S. Congressman Ron Paul, which is free for grades K-5 and available to paid members from grades 6–12.[15][16] As Director of Curriculum Development, North has outlined four goals of the educational project: providing a "detailed study" of the "history of liberty"; teaching a "thorough understanding of Austrian economics"; serving as a "an academically rigorous curriculum that is tied to primary source" material rather than textbooks; and teaching "the Biblical principle of self-government and personal responsibility", which North calls "the foundation of the market economy".[17] Gary North (economist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What the heck is that supposed to mean?
The context is changed. We begin talking about a social construct: rights. The context is social. And then someone (those who do not understand rights as a social construct) changes (reduces) context to a single individual alone in "nature" (I put nature in quotes because separating man from nature, in the first place, is a logical fallacy).
This abandonment of context results in all kinds of crazy ideas about where (socially) natural rights come from.
The founders knew these rights are self evident and come from logic and reason. Saying they come from a Creator was just a way of saying they're natural.
Oh I see. So basically, you are saying that as long as society views something like murder as being morally wrong, then that would be considered a "natural" right? Amirite?
If that belief/desire is universal. Thus 'owning a car' is not a natural right.
natural rights do not come from our constitution.
they come from our humanity.
LOL, well to be honest, you would probably want your rights to come from God rather than your government. :mrgreen:
I only want the government to exist to govern. And part of governing is protecting rights not creating them.
This really depends on what you mean by "Christian nation". if you mean that it is founded upon Judao-Christian values and principles then you are correct! if you are talking about the country enforcing Christianity or supporting christianity as the only religion then duh... its not. If you are speaking about simply socially, then a case can be made either way.
Never even hinted at saying that our rights come from the Constitution, but really that part probably doesnt matter to you.
I did impy though that our rights were not granted by someones belief system.
A Special thread for Bodhisattva.
The United States is not a Christian Nation. That is my stance.
A nation is defined by it's government and it's people - not only by it's majority. To refer to it as A Christian Nation is to falsely represent many Americans.
Our Country grants freedom for all religions and lack thereof. Grand Cathedrals, churches, Temples, Mosques, and Conventions for Non Believers can be found all over this country. All of which are given equal respect and right to exist.
Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Our Government and thus our laws are entirely secular. There are a vast array of laws that directly contradict the teachings in the bible and thus God's will (i.e. laws regarding homosexuals, divorce, and other things considered blasphemous). Making the term "Christian Nation" ever more strange and obviously misplaced.
There is no legitimate reason to refer to this Nation as Christian.
77% Christians = The United States is a Christian Country
And you think that is in the interest of government? To protect your rights?
no it matters, i take what you say seriously.
the founders say creator, therefore they are leaving it subjective to the reader.
Is the Constitution pointless?
Don't answer a question with a question and expect an answer until you answer my question.
Could you make that a clear point?
i hope i make both clear.
i take your post seriously, your a good poster, we disagree but still i have respect for what you say.
as to the DOI, with its statement, the founders stated the creator the did not say god.....because they left the word "creator" to be subjective to the reader...creator in heaven, creator of nature, its up to the individual how he chooses to use the word.
LOL, well to be honest, you would probably want your rights to come from God rather than your government. :mrgreen:
Thank you that was clear. And amazingly I agree. The founders were very aware that they needed to be tolerant of other beliefs. They had to get people to work together as a country that otherwise would not have. The outcome was a diverse country built on a principle of tolerance. A lot of Christians (and yes Atheists to) need to crack open a history book and learn a thing or two about tolerance and the Constitution.
I'd rather they come from the minds of the people, rather than either.
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