America is financing a Nazi regime

[Rogue Valley]

Maybe it was fired from a Russian ally, Moldova or Belarus?

Moldova is not a Russian allie. The country has applied for EU membership.

Ukraine was heavily divided on both EU and NATO membership, but there was much more support for the former than the latter.

This statement was only viable before the Maidan uprising of 2013.

 

[anatta]

So the Confederacy was legitimate because Lincoln polled poorly in South Carolina?

. there was no war (Russian separatists) before the Maidan

 

[anatta]

So just conspiracy theories

Maidan was not a theory. USA individuals were on the ground at Independence Square (Kagan/Nuland/Pyatt/McCain)

 

[W_Heisenberg]

. there was no war (Russian separatists) before the Maidan

There was no war before the Maidan Uprising because the Russian government was still able to control the Ukrainian government. After the Maidan Uprising Putin lost control of the Ukrainian government. That’s when Putin invaded and annexed Crimea and then flooded eastern Ukraine with money, weapons, and military personnel with the intent of fomenting a civil war.

 

[Fledermaus]

. there was no war (Russian separatists) before the Maidan

Because the proxy war was started by Russia after Maidan booted his puppet out of office.

 

[Fledermaus]

Maidan was not a theory. USA individuals were on the ground at Independence Square (Kagan/Nuland/Pyatt/McCain)

Yep.

With thermo nuclear capable cookies.

 

[Quag]

Maidan was not a theory. USA individuals were on the ground at Independence Square (Kagan/Nuland/Pyatt/McCain)

Your CT is still a CT and no one was disenfranchised by it

Wow you really really are looking for any excuse to support Putin arent you Komrade?

 

[anatta]

Have you notified the Ukrainians their country is just an "area"?

I honestly don't understand your position. You're not just advocating an isolationist foreign policy for the U.S., you're basically pro-Russian and you're repeating Kremlin propaganda word for word. There is no other way your words can be interpreted.

you dont understand because you are an unrepentant interventionist who thinks in terms of "spreading democracy"
and other neo-con trash talk is advancing US interests abroad.
the lessons arming Syria rebels, Iraq.Libya. and nationbuilding in Afghanistan were never internalized by you.
Add in our meddling in Ukraine politics since like forever, and our exhortations at the Maidan
That meddling includes but it not limited to the Nuland phone call

So you lash out at any concept other then full bore US involvement as "isolationist"
How about if the EU was in the lead role? they were supplying economic and humanitarian aid -not the USA,
while the USA provided only weapons NATO/EU could not.

I could support that as long as we were at least mouthing we wanted peace talsk - we don't even do that

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Maidan was not a theory. USA individuals were on the ground at Independence Square (Kagan/Nuland/Pyatt/McCain)

The Maidan Uprising was a popular uprising, a revolt of the people against a tyrannical government in which the incumbent President had begun imprisoning his political opposition and murdering protesters with snipers. U.S. officials were not responsible for the uprising. That’s a ridiculous and pathetic lie promoted by the Kremlin. It’s Russian propaganda. Putin tricked you with his lies and you fell for it. The Maidan Uprising occurred because the Ukrainian President did not do what the Ukrainian people wanted. And U.S. officials such as Nuland sought to brother a compromise and resolve the dispute without violence. McCain did nothing except for publicly support the righteous cause of the protestors, and their cause was very simple, they wanted Ukraine to become a real, modern liberal democracy. That’s something that could not happen so long as the Russian government kept interfering in their internal affairs through their puppets in Ukraine.

 

[anatta]

There was no war before the Maidan Uprising because the Russian government was still able to control the Ukrainian government. After the Maidan Uprising Putin lost control of the Ukrainian government. That’s when Putin invaded and annexed Crimea and then flooded eastern Ukraine with money, weapons, and military personnel with the intent of fomenting a civil war.

control? why was Putin offering nat gas debt relief in exchange for joining the Eurasian Economic Union "control"
Putin treated Ukraine as an independent state -what is this "control"

 

[anatta]

The Maidan Uprising was a popular uprising, a revolt of the people against a tyrannical government in which the incumbent President had begun imprisoning his political opposition and murdering protesters with snipers. U.S. officials were not responsible for the uprising. That’s a ridiculous and pathetic lie promoted by the Kremlin. It’s Russian propaganda. Putin tricked you with his lies and you fell for it. The Maidan Uprising occurred because the Ukrainian President did not do what the Ukrainian people wanted. And U.S. officials such as Nuland sought to brother a compromise and resolve the dispute without violence. McCain did nothing except for publicly support the righteous cause of the protestors, and their cause was very simple, they wanted Ukraine to become a real, modern liberal democracy. That’s something that could not happen so long as the Russian government kept interfering in their internal affairs through their puppets in Ukraine.

great Buddha. were they all wearing white hats at the Square? So you could tell they were the good guys?
Events at the Maidan were far from clear (snipers )
but examining the situation is immediately "Russian propaganda" . you think in binary terms
you keep reffering to "Ukrainian people" like it was a unanimous block - it wasnt -and the east still supported Yanukovych

Nuland was interfering in choosing a successor (**** the EU), but she was also ON THE GROUND HYPING THE PROTESTORS
before the actual violence.
McCain was giving his Nazi salute with Party of Regions blokes on stage, abut was also working to foment the Maidan

Pyatt/Kagan -also on the ground. all were calling for protestors to be "freedom fighters.
If you dont get the idea the USA was an intimate part of turning peaceful protests into a riot
i cant help that, but the fact so many US neo-cons were there speaks for itself

 

[anatta]

Your CT is still a CT and no one was disenfranchised by it
Wow you really really are looking for any excuse to support Putin arent you Komrade?

hey if that's what you get out of this -enjoy

 

[Rogue Valley]

Nuland was interfering in choosing a successor (**** the EU),

No. Simply making suggestions.

but she was also ON THE GROUND HYPING THE PROTESTORS

Boy, you sure are triggered by Nuland handing out chocolate chip cookies to the Maidan protestors.

 

[LostInSeattle]

Moldova is not a Russian allie. The country has applied for EU membership.



This statement was only viable before the Maidan uprising of 2013.

The surveys I cited were from 2015.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

you dont understand because you are an unrepentant interventionist who thinks in terms of "spreading democracy" and other neo-con trash talk is advancing US interests abroad.

the lessons arming Syria rebels, Iraq. Libya. and nationbuilding in Afghanistan were never internalized by you.

Ukraine built its own nation, and they were in the process of creating a modern, liberal democracy, a real democracy based on the rule of law. Russia wanted a Ukraine complaint, dependent, and controlled by the Russian government. That is the reason why Russia invaded it. Ukraine's ability to ween itself from Russia's corruption meant that Russia could no longer control Ukraine through corruption.

Add in our meddling in Ukraine politics since like forever, and our exhortations at the Maidan

Our so-called "meddling" involved helping Ukraine become a democracy through moral support, consultation and advice concerning democracy-building efforts. These things include how to conduct free and fair elections, assistance with election monitoring, which laws to pass to reduce corruption, and so on. The only person who had a problem with that was Putin. And, for good reason, if Ukraine is a real democracy then Putin cannot control Ukraine.

That meddling includes but it not limited to the Nuland phone call

The Nuland phone call was an attempt by the U.S. to broker a compromise with Yanukovych and Yanukovych's opposition. The U.S. plays a vital role in world affairs and spends a considerable amount of time and effort to non-violently resolve conflict. We should not be ashamed of U.S. attempts to peacefully and diplomatically resolve contentious political disputes in other countries, when the stability of such countries is threatened. Now, Putin describes such things as meddling because he views Ukraine as his possession. But Ukraine is not Putin's possession. Ukraine is not Russia's possession. Ukraine is an independent, and sovereign country.

 

[WillyPete]

There's certainly cynical history to draw from.

The US supported Bin Laden and the mujahedeen when it suited us, as well as Saddam Hussein and Manual Noriega, the Iranians, and others besides.

We are first and foremost Capitalists, and mean (as best we can) removing morality from the equation, and making the "smart" move.

Now that is a horrible and inhumane way to do things, but it's been pretty effective for us in recent history.

We "used" Iraq and Iran to weaken each other in their war.
We "used" Manual Noriega as part of a drug corridor until that wasn't what we wanted any more.
We "used" the Afghanis to defeat the Russians.

And now, we are "using" the Ukrainians to defeat the Russians, again.

Naturally, the other way to view it is that all of those groups entered into the arrangement with their eyes wide open, and had their reasons to play along.

So it's not that we are supporting Nazis (if that's what they are) so much as they are the enemies of our enemies, and useful tools.

We are also demonstrating that Russia is a paper tiger with a big mouth. That's worth a lot.

There are entire generations of Americans raised in fear of the inevitable Red Invasion and now it looks like the only way they could get over here would be on a raft made of Russian soldier's bones.

And all it costs was a bunch of weaponry (which counts as sales to the MIC) and ignoring their unsavory past?

I think we'll manage.

 

[anatta]

[MEDIA

no You tubes. if you cant write it i aint watching it

Ukraine built its own nation, and they were in the process of creating a modern, liberal democracy, a real democracy based on the rule of law. Russia wanted a Ukraine complaint, dependent, and controlled by the Russian government. That is the reason why Russia invaded it. Ukraine's ability to ween itself from Russia's corruption meant that Russia could no longer control Ukraine through corruption.

Russia was treating Ukraine as a sovereign nation. it offered a pretty good deal and was accepted before the Kyiv factions wouldn't hear of it. That's their prerogative, but the USA had a 1/2 dozen neocons to make sure it never was just an internal UKraine matter.
"creating a democracy?" when do revolutions equate to democracy for an established country with elections ?

The Maidan was before Crimean annexation - which was not because Russia wanted to "control Ukraine" it wanted to secure it's strategic interests in Crimea which is much more Russian then Kyiv influenced.. which goes back to NATO expansion and the legit fear of Putin losing control and access to the military installations there, not the least is Sevastopol Naval base by NATO expansion

Our so-called "meddling" involved helping Ukraine become a democracy through moral support, consultation and advice concerning democracy-building efforts. These things include how to conduct free and fair elections, assistance with election monitoring, which laws to pass to reduce corruption, and so on. The only person who had a problem with that was Putin. And, for good reason, if Ukraine is a real democracy then Putin cannot control Ukraine.

USAID to Ukraine was bent on turning it into a western orientation, not neutrality.
again you default to "democracy" as some magic excuse for meddling

The Nuland phone call was an attempt by the U.S. to broker a compromise with Yanukovych and Yanukovych's opposition. The U.S. plays a vital role in world affairs and spends a considerable amount of time and effort to non-violently resolve conflict. We should not be ashamed of U.S. attempts to peacefully and diplomatically resolve contentious political disputes in other countries, when the stability of such countries is threatened. Now, Putin describes such things as meddling because he views Ukraine as his possession. But Ukraine is not Putin's possession. Ukraine is not Russia's possession. Ukraine is an independent, and sovereign country.

we need to learn to stay out of other nations politics. it always ends badly, including here
Nuland wasn't interested in "resolving conflict" -she is manipulating Ukraine politics
Even going so far as doing it without consultations with the EU/Ukraine.

The funny part is she claimed Russia would mind.
Shut out the EU, have the USA determine what's next for Uk, and Russia is supposed to just go along with the scheme

"While the Westerners weave little intrigues and get into scandals, Russia is helping the regions of Ukraine restore lost connections with our industries. Maybe then there will be fewer unemployed and embittered people to organize riots in their own cities with foreign money." - Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin

 

[W_Heisenberg]

So you lash out at any concept other then full bore US involvement as "isolationist" How about if the EU was in the lead role? they were supplying economic and humanitarian aid -not the USA,

I don't view the U.S. and the E.U. has being entirely separate entities. The U.S. and the E.U. are part of the same civilization and are integrated politically, diplomatically, economically, and legally to a great degree. We have both a strategic interest and also a moral obligation to help the E.U. succeed. The U.S. has taken the lead role because the U.S. is the most powerful Western country in the world. And if the U.S. wasn't the most powerful Western country in the world then another Western country would assume that role. The countries that belong to the E.U. have also delegated to the U.S. a significant role in their own foreign policies, and with that power comes responsibility. More fundamentally, when your friend needs help, you help them. It's that simple.

while the USA provided only weapons NATO/EU could not.

Part of the reason for this is the fact that the U.S. has actively chosen to specialize in weapon production whereas other countries in the West have tended to specialize in other industries. This is what happens in a global economic system, and specialization is part of the reason why we've had such huge economic growth rates across the world over the past few decades. And another reason why European countries tend not to have as many weapons is because they have smaller economies, in general, and aren't making as many weapons as the U.S.

It's a perfectly acceptable arrangement, especially when these European countries are buying our weapons. We are also the world's largest weapons exporter as well.

Our dominance in weapons manufacturing and our lending and export of our weapons to our allies also provides the U.S. with extreme power and leverage over world affairs.

I could support that as long as we were at least mouthing we wanted peace talsk - we don't even do that

Russia doesn't want peace talks. It wants a temporary truce so it can build its forces up and try to conquer Ukraine.

The only true lasting peace that Ukraine will be able to enjoy will arrive only after one or both things happen:

1) Putin is removed from power and replaced with a regime that does not seek the destruction of Ukraine,

or/and

2) Ukraine has practically secured its country, liberated enough of its territory that Russia stole from it, to the extent that it would be impossible for Russia to ever invade it again.

 

[Fledermaus]

control? why was Putin offering nat gas debt relief in exchange for joining the Eurasian Economic Union "control"
Putin treated Ukraine as an independent state -what is this "control"

Ukraine had a pro Putin puppet in place.

Just look how Putin reacted when his puppet was deposed.

Invading Crimea and starting a proxy war in Donbass.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

no You tubes. if you cant write it i aint watching i

Ad Hominem Fallacy

Are you using personal attacks instead of engaging with an opponent's argument? You might be guilty of ad hominem.

owl.excelsior.edu

Ad hominem means “against the man,” and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. This type of fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Typically, this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong".

 

[Fledermaus]

There's certainly cynical history to draw from.

The US supported Bin Laden and the mujahedeen when it suited us, as well as Saddam Hussein and Manual Noriega, the Iranians, and others besides.

We are first and foremost Capitalists, and mean (as best we can) removing morality from the equation, and making the "smart" move.

Now that is a horrible and inhumane way to do things, but it's been pretty effective for us in recent history.

We "used" Iraq and Iran to weaken each other in their war.
We "used" Manual Noriega as part of a drug corridor until that wasn't what we wanted any more.
We "used" the Afghanis to defeat the Russians.

And now, we are "using" the Ukrainians to defeat the Russians, again.

Naturally, the other way to view it is that all of those groups entered into the arrangement with their eyes wide open, and had their reasons to play along.

So it's not that we are supporting Nazis (if that's what they are) so much as they are the enemies of our enemies, and useful tools.

We are also demonstrating that Russia is a paper tiger with a big mouth. That's worth a lot.

There are entire generations of Americans raised in fear of the inevitable Red Invasion and now it looks like the only way they could get over here would be on a raft made of Russian soldier's bones.

And all it costs was a bunch of weaponry (which counts as sales to the MIC) and ignoring their unsavory past?

I think we'll manage.

The bolded is incorrect.

 

[anatta]

Ad Hominem Fallacy

Are you using personal attacks instead of engaging with an opponent's argument? You might be guilty of ad hominem.

owl.excelsior.edu

Ad hominem means “against the man,” and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. This type of fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Typically, this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong".

you could have simply said "ad hom" Messageboard 101 is using ad hom in place of rebuttals..duh

 

[WillyPete]

The bolded is incorrect.

I think it's pretty reasonable to say that Bin Laden was a direct result of our earlier acts in Afghanistan, but I'm open to being corrected.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

we need to learn to stay out of other nations politics. it always ends badly,

No, it doesn't.

In the case of U.S. moral support for the Maidan Uprising the Ukrainians finally got what they wanted since the fall of the Soviet Union, their independence from Russia and the beginnings of a real, modern liberal democracy.

Our support of Ukraine against Russia's illegal invasion has also been positive:



“I am extremely happy we’re finally free. Now, we have no electricity in the city, no water, no central heating, no mobile signal, no internet connection — but we have no Russians"

This is what the Ukrainians want for themselves, and it's their right to demand it, and it's our right to give them help if we so choose.

including here Nuland wasn't interested in "resolving conflict"

She was doing exactly that.

But thanks once again for showing to everyone who promote Russian propaganda.

Putin would be so proud of you!

-she is manipulating Ukraine politics Even going so far as doing it without consultations with the EU/Ukraine.

Nuland's irritation at that time was that the EU wasn't doing enough in Ukraine.

Nuland eventually handed off her diplomatic work to the EU, and it was the EU that eventually brokered a compromise between the factions.

 

[anatta]

I don't view the U.S. and the E.U. has being entirely separate entities. The U.S. and the E.U. are part of the same civilization and are integrated politically, diplomatically, economically, and legally to a great degree. We have both a strategic interest and also a moral obligation to help the E.U. succeed. The U.S. has taken the lead role because the U.S. is the most powerful Western country in the world. And if the U.S. wasn't the most powerful Western country in the world then another Western country would assume that role. The countries that belong to the E.U. have also delegated to the U.S. a significant role in their own foreign policies, and with that power comes responsibility. More fundamentally, when your friend needs help, you help them. It's that simple.

they ARE separate entitites, and tying the USA to the EU's foreign policy is something only a neocon would do
How about the USA determine it's policy and the EU can do there's? if we agree -fine, if we dont. ce la vie
Such tying is why we get dragged into wars. Tying the USA into Frances desire for regime change in Libya
means we turned a UN no fly zone resolution into full bore regime change, despite the fact Qadaffi was helpful on combatting terrorism

Part of the reason for this is the fact that the U.S. has actively chosen to specialize in weapon production whereas other countries in the West have tended to specialize in other industries. This is what happens in a global economic system, and specialization is part of the reason why we've had such huge economic growth rates across the world over the past few decades. And another reason why European countries tend not to have as many weapons is because they have smaller economies, in general, and aren't making as many weapons as the U.S.

I've already agreed weapons not available from NATO/EU could be supplied by the USA without too serious objection by myself
My objection i that's not what we did, we took the lead role in weapons. economic and humanitarian aid
and Biden has already stated ("no matter how ling it takes") Uk has a blank check

Our dominance in weapons manufacturing and our lending and export of our weapons to our allies also provides the U.S. with extreme power and leverage over world affairs.

we dont need "leverage" by weapons sales. we can use institutions like the UN or USAID or bilateral security agreements
And the Big Leverage is economic (soft power) which we cant do worth a shit -unlike China. Be like China on soft power and quit
thinking weapons sales are diplomacy

Russia doesn't want peace talks. It wants a temporary truce so it can build its forces up and try to conquer Ukraine.
The only true lasting peace that Ukraine will be able to enjoy will arrive only after one or both things happen:

1) Putin is removed from power and replaced with a regime that does not seek the destruction of Ukraine,
or/and
2) Ukraine has practically secured its country, liberated enough of its territory that Russia stole from it, to the extent that it would be impossible for Russia to ever invade it again.

perpetual war as a means to peace...