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"Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

But the real problem with his nonsense claim is:
a) He shows a faked up picture of WTC tower

What are you talking about? faked up picture?

for which he does not comprehend the physics.

Oh contrare I have corrected you plenty of times

So Oz no one believes you when you have nothing to support such rubbish.



b) I do comprehend the physics of the real WTC on 9/11 event;

No you dont. You did not comprehend what I said. I had to draw a picture for you. I never have to draw a picture for an engineer regarding fundamental physics 'principles', however you and kat I do, just like I have to do that with debunkers. Must be another 911 freak coincidence I imagine

c) I can explain it in any necessary detail;

the core had negligible resistance is defined as hand waving not explaining, and explaining does nothing to help your case at this point unless it also includes a sufficiently detailed counter argument to the topple arguments. DUH it fawed down is not a sufficient counter argument and you need not know how to even use a pencil to make an argument that lame. Its a 2 prong issue you either sufficiently argue both or leave one out and you lose.


d) He knows that I can explain and he cannot;

Not only did I explain in a manner that any 'real' engineer can understand I even went so far as to post pretty pictures to represent the points being made, just like I have to do with debunkers, the irony huh.


e) The real physics did not result in topple;

Not toppling is not a function of real physics except in the land of Oz where real physics is whatever Oz says it is. Sorry no one is biting, well your groupies and socks will cheer you on of course, but then they arent engineers any more than you are.


f) For a simple reason - the tilted bit fell down too fast for the topple to "win" AND

Yes in fact that reason is so simple it completely hand waves and ignores the counter 1000 pound gorilla counter argument leveled against you. Not that I blame you for wanting to shut it down because then you would actually have to show some real engineering skill. You know like real engineers do.


g) The reason it fell - "all columns failed"

and it aw faw down, yes we get that Oz, what a magnificent piece of engineering analysis Oz. I see a no-bell prize! LMAO

- ALSO removed the pivot which was needed to cause the tilt/topple.

Maybe in the land of Oz but in the real world another pivot forms.


So that much is reality and it is all pretty basic stuff which he denies without any reasoned basis for his false denials.

Dream on Oz, I addressed everyone of your failures with counter arguments that I had to simplify to the point a child could understand and yet you pretend they do not exist. What a coincidence just like the government does.

WHILST

h) His invented model shows topple WITHOUT any explanation as to why it topples.

What model? You mean you need me to teach you what causes a building to topple. Look I have no reason what so ever to believe on any level I am talking with an engineer on the other end of my keyboard since engineers take this principles for granted while yo ujust cant seem to grasp the concept.


i) AND all of that is an evasive smokescreen'

huh? I laid the cards on the table and spelled it all out for you, try dropping in on planet earth next time you buz around the neighborhood.


j) His claim that I have shown to be wrong is NOT that his silly model did topple

Its time to wake up from your dream Oz, you have shown no such thing what so ever, hell you didnt even try and constantly repeating your fantasy will not make it a reality, not that that reason will stop you any time soon.

k) His false claim is that WTC Collapse should not have stopped toppling.

My claim is that the top section should have toppled. I gave you pretty pictures to show you both cause and effect and the applicable principles in physics, you hand waved it off and you gave me nothing what so ever but a gaurantee from the land of Oz that there is no other 'possible' way for the top section to descend


Reality is that it did stop so for him to prove that what did in fact happen should not have happened puts him in an absurd position.
...and he has no argument to get himself out of the corner he put himself in.

And no amount of lies or insults directed at me or Kat will change that fact. He has no argument to support his false claim.

I made the argument and no amount of denial on your part will change that. It took you kids 10 years to catch up with me regarding bazant and sleazer and from what I have seen it will take you the rest of your lives to catch up with this one.

No Oz the sky is not blue despite what is does, which is to look very blue. Nothing you can say will change that and nothing you can say will change the fact you have been sufficiently countered and failed to rebut.

Let the repitition and truther attacks begin.

Anytime you want to have a serious debate let me know.

Another Gish Gallop of various forms of untruths.

However members can thank KokomoJojo for providing the colour coding. Here is the easiest way to analyse it:

1) The black bits are true claims; AND
2) The red bits are all false, irrelevant or some other form of debating trick.

Any member needing more details please identify which bit you want more comment on and I will explain either why I am right or why Koko is wrong.

As regular followers of this program are aware - I do not chase Gish Gallops. And I ignore personal attacks and insults.

and my thanks to KokomoJojo for highlighting in red all the false claims.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Another Gish Gallop of various forms of untruths.

However members can thank KokomoJojo for providing the colour coding. Here is the easiest way to analyse it:

1) The black bits are true claims; AND
2) The red bits are all false, irrelevant or some other form of debating trick.

Any member needing more details please identify which bit you want more comment on and I will explain either why I am right or why Koko is wrong.

As regular followers of this program are aware - I do not chase Gish Gallops. And I ignore personal attacks and insults.

and my thanks to KokomoJojo for highlighting in red all the false claims.

we get it Oz! we know your strategy!

Move up from dodging and ducking to




As regular followers of this program are aware - I do not chase Gish Gallops.

Especially the ones you create and the responses toast you

you got a winning strategy there Oz! Keep up the good work!
 
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re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

we get it Oz! we know your strategy!

Move up from dodging and ducking to

Especially the ones you create and the responses toast you

you got a winning strategy there Oz! Keep up the good work!

If you responded in an adult fashion and behaved with some form of decency, you may find people would respond to you favourably. But no, you act like a jerk, lie and insult people and then wonder why you're treated like a tosser? FFS!

Concentrate on the subject, not ad hominem.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

If you responded in an adult fashion and behaved with some form of decency, you may find people would respond to you favourably. But no, you act like a jerk, lie and insult people and then wonder why you're treated like a tosser? FFS!

Concentrate on the subject, not ad hominem.
It's only the total lack of either reasoned argument or reasoned counter argument that I pay attention to.

The amusement comes from the fact that he will not address his own claim, misrepresents both his claim and my explanations...

... AND has cornered himself into needing to demonstrate that CD - or some other MHI - STOPS collapses. "Building stop collapsing - I've just exploded out some more columns". scratch.gif

King Knut/Canute has some competition. :roll: (Yes I do know the real Knut story but the commonly understood version will do here.)

Go figure.....
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Koko acts so immature that he can't be taken seriously. If he has any arguments it's impossible to see them because his style is so offensive.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

If you responded in an adult fashion and behaved with some form of decency, you may find people would respond to you favourably. But no, you act like a jerk, lie and insult people and then wonder why you're treated like a tosser? FFS!

Concentrate on the subject, not ad hominem.

Oh I do respond decently until the children take it to the 10th level of bull**** where there is no point in dealing with them on an adult level. I dont need to lie, I have no problem supporting my positions, and I certainly dont need to make **** up like you continually do candy. People insult themselves when they pour on the bull**** and no better example of a tosser than you out here. But thanks this thread needed another does of bull**** as if its not already deep enough in the land of Oz.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

It's only the total lack of either reasoned argument or reasoned counter argument that I pay attention to.

The amusement comes from the fact that he will not address his own claim, misrepresents both his claim and my explanations...

... AND has cornered himself into needing to demonstrate that CD - or some other MHI - STOPS collapses. "Building stop collapsing - I've just exploded out some more columns". View attachment 67167910

King Knut/Canute has some competition. :roll: (Yes I do know the real Knut story but the commonly understood version will do here.)

Go figure.....

Same tired mantra,
Gish the board and when I respond blame me for it.
Show how unreasonable you are and you blame me for it.
Yes you are trapped, you proved demolition though it will take you 20 years to figure out.
Kat hasa clue but I have no intentions of going another round of torching all his strawmen.
No I do not need to demonstrate CD, simply another one of your crazy misguided unreasoned positions.

Its you that have to prove your theory, its you that has provided nothing to prove your theory.

Good luck with that, you wont get it past me though your groupies will always love you.

If the day ever comes you want to get serious let me know.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Koko acts so immature that he can't be taken seriously. If he has any arguments it's impossible to see them because his style is so offensive.

So you are saying I fit right in with you all.

Sorry I am not into playing footsie.

When you people want to get serious and debate whats on the table instead of reciting your script let me know.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Koko acts so immature that he can't be taken seriously. If he has any arguments it's impossible to see them because his style is so offensive.
Sure. But I actually check every line he posts BEFORE I say his claims are all wrong. However low he sets his own standards I will not lower mine. If I say - when I say:
2) The red bits are all false, irrelevant or some other form of debating trick.
I mean it and you can be assured I have checked that he has not accidentally slipped in some valid bit of claim. And I would be prepared to back my counter claim for any honest reasonable person who asks. Or for Koko is he ever decides to get serious.

There is another aspect. Unlike most others posting here coming from the truther side of argument Koko is prepared to make statements based on physics like this one (The black mine - the red his):
- ALSO removed the pivot which was needed to cause the tilt/topple.

Maybe in the land of Oz but in the real world another pivot forms.
Now he is wrong naturally. But the way he is wrong tells us a lot more than he probably realises. F'rinstance Sander the "another pivot forms" shows that he is guessing ahead and getting it wrong. Has no concept of what is happening. Specifically no concept that once the pivot fails/all columns fail ROOSD is already under way. And that means that there cannot be another pivot.

So, generically, he is falling into the truther logic trap of "one or two bits at a time AND no concept of the overall mechanism".

Then the tirades of false personal attacks, ad homs and attempted projection of his failings onto those of us who are prepared to enter serious debate. Remember the lawyers maxim - second part - "If they are attacking the witnesses - they have no case."

If he ever gets serious and posts an argument for a new claim I may respond.

He cannot post an argument for his current claim....it is nonsense as he has probably realised since I have shown him exactly why in two or three posts..
 
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re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Sure. But I actually check every line he posts BEFORE I say his claims are all wrong. However low he sets his own standards I will not lower mine. If I say - when I say: I mean it and you can be assured I have checked that he has not accidentally slipped in some valid bit of claim. And I would be prepared to back my counter claim for any honest reasonable person who asks. Or for Koko is he ever decides to get serious.

There is another aspect. Unlike most others posting here coming from the truther side of argument Koko is prepared to make statements based on physics like this one (The black mine - the red his):
Now he is wrong naturally. But the way he is wrong tells us a lot more than he probably realises. F'rinstance Sander the "another pivot forms" shows that he is guessing ahead and getting it wrong. Has no concept of what is happening. Specifically no concept that once the pivot fails/all columns fail ROOSD is already under way. And that means that there cannot be another pivot.

So, generically, he is falling into the truther logic trap of "one or two bits at a time AND no concept of the overall mechanism".


as usual standing on your soapbox shouting more naked bull**** witout a damn thing to back you up. Hell you just proved that you dont even understand what I am talking about. LOL

what a ruse.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

as usual standing on your soapbox shouting more naked bull**** witout a damn thing to back you up. Hell you just proved that you dont even understand what I am talking about. LOL

what a ruse.

Ozzie has detailed over the years the various mechanisms which explain the observed movements. YOU have not. I have given my own reasonably detailed theories to explain them without resorting to magic or CD. As I have stated many times... absent adequate real time data... it's all theoretical models. And the models require inputs which are assumed. If the assumptions are reasonable to model is worthy of consideration. A model is not a proof. There will be no proofs about what happened. But one can rule out theories which are unfounded in physics and engineering... such as your fantasies.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Ozzie has detailed over the years the various mechanisms which explain the observed movements. YOU have not. I have given my own reasonably detailed theories to explain them without resorting to magic or CD. As I have stated many times... absent adequate real time data... it's all theoretical models. And the models require inputs which are assumed. If the assumptions are reasonable to model is worthy of consideration. A model is not a proof. There will be no proofs about what happened. But one can rule out theories which are unfounded in physics and engineering... such as your fantasies.

Sure there will, do a model that accurately fully represents all the elements involved.

You will find that what Oz is passing off as a collapse and the only way it could have happened just happens to require demolition to accomplish. I have already demonstrated the principles, he handwaves.

What are you throwing into your definition of "real time data" box?

Back to the blue sky conundrum.

Its reasonable to claim that the sky cant be anything but blue, you can walk outside and prove it to any physics dummy on the street, then along comes koko and laughs his ass off at Oz while you pontificate how your crew has made the same error for 20 years therefore you must be correct and koko should just accept your error because it fits a loose definition of reasonable as promulgated from the land of Oz. Who does not even understand the concepts of burden of proof.

Does not take too much imagination to understand that its extremely easy to make a demolition appear as a collapse. Well except for debunkers of course, they think its impossible.

Oz simply does not understand what I am saying on the naive side, or being willfully ignorant on the obtuse side, but then most debunkers falsely claiming to be engineers dont understand what I am saying.

I have yet to see anything, well with few exceptions, that Oz has done that is complete enough to accurately represent the matters, there are always critical elements anything that purports to demolition left out.

However this kind of trickery only lasts to th epoint where it does full circle and comes right back to bite em in the ass as has happened here. Oz in essence agrees to demolition and does not even even know it, or is merely putting on a facade to deceive us into believing partial truths which invariably lead one to the wrong conclusion. "collapse".
 
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re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Sure there will, do a model that accurately fully represents all the elements involved.

You will find that what Oz is passing off as a collapse and the only way it could have happened just happens to require demolition to accomplish. I have already demonstrated the principles, he handwaves.
Hogwash. If you ever decide to get serious and start telling the truth we could progress this topic. The one requirement of you which you keep avoiding its that you either present your own claim with reasoned support OR you respond to mine with reasoned argument. You continued denial and reliance on unsupported bare assertions does not meet the base level for discussion.

Back to the blue sky conundrum.
You cannot get "back to it" since you never comprehended what it was in the first place given your rush, as always, to distort and misrepresent..
Who does not even understand the concepts of burden of proof.
Whether "scientific method" or "para-legal argument" the burden of proof is on the claimant. Once an hypothesis has been made OR the case for prosecution or plaintiff has been made out those proposing a better hypothesis or putting forward a defence have to prove their better hypothesis or case for defence. The burden of proof applies to the party making the claim. The relevant claim is the claim the the "other side" is wrong.

Your ridiculous twisting of those simple facts doesn't change where burden lies. And I have several times shown you where the errors are in your silly distortions.

Once again - if you drop the dishonesties discussion could progress.

And the personal attack and insults do not affect me.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Hogwash. If you ever decide to get serious and start telling the truth we could progress this topic. The one requirement of you which you keep avoiding its that you either present your own claim with reasoned support OR you respond to mine with reasoned argument. You continued denial and reliance on unsupported bare assertions does not meet the base level for discussion.

You cannot get "back to it" since you never comprehended what it was in the first place given your rush, as always, to distort and misrepresent..
Whether "scientific method" or "para-legal argument" the burden of proof is on the claimant. Once an hypothesis has been made OR the case for prosecution or plaintiff has been made out those proposing a better hypothesis or putting forward a defence have to prove their better hypothesis or case for defence. The burden of proof applies to the party making the claim. The relevant claim is the claim the the "other side" is wrong.

Your ridiculous twisting of those simple facts doesn't change where burden lies. And I have several times shown you where the errors are in your silly distortions.

Once again - if you drop the dishonesties discussion could progress.

And the personal attack and insults do not affect me.

yep and you claim it was a collapse and to date have insufficiently demonstrated anything driving to the merits.

No twisting stop with the psycho transference already.

You have not "shown" any such thing but I am sure you think you have in your fertile imagination. negligible resistance is not in the mechanical engineering handbook Oz. Its in the debunker dablunder handbook of crazy physics.

My argument counters your claim, you are the claimant pal its all on you and fail to defend, hence any court woudl rule against you. Dont tell me you are a paralegal, and if you are you certainly would not want to go up against me in court, Id toast you there as easily as I have toasted you here.

Principles are not bare assertions Oz, well maybe when you are in the defensive they are.

I presented an argument to you and you handwaved it off, I dont give a **** what you do with it, its your red face not mine. you failed to make a case against the rotation outside complete absurdity.

You dont even know what is meant by another pivot forms. The model I posted shows it correctly.

wheres your model oz? anything? other than it faw down therefore it had to faw down by collapse circular logic
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

negligible resistance is not in the mechanical engineering handbook Oz.
Actually, it is.

The model I posted shows it correctly.
You mean the model that shows debris spontaneously rocketing upward? Where is that in the "engineering handbook"?

:lamo
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Actually, it is.


You mean the model that shows debris spontaneously rocketing upward? Where is that in the "engineering handbook"?

:lamo

Actually its not.

forget it with the strawmen.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Nice try.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

hitting the bullseye is not a 'try'
You didn't hit any bullseye. It was a try, but I was being kind. It was not a 'nice' try, it was more bull****. Obviously.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

You didn't hit any bullseye. It was a try, but I was being kind. It was not a 'nice' try, it was more bull****. Obviously.

Sure did, and a bullseye is a bullseye despite how you wish to spin it kat.

I was being kind also

Maybe you should coach Oz how to better spin his theory. See how that fares.
 
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re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

I was being kind also
In dismissing this?
->

You mean the model that shows debris spontaneously rocketing upward? Where is that in the "engineering handbook"?
Really, where is that in "the engineering handbook"? I want to know. It was not kind of you to ignore this question.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

The least you could do is acknowledge that detached debris in your POS "model" does indeed spontaneously accelerate upwards - probabably at many gs - without any apparent motive force (and what on earth would the force be, anyway?). Everyone can see it. It's there. It's profoundly unphysical. I can understand why you don't want to talk about it, because it's ridiculous.

If you're not even going say who made that POS, at least confirm that you see what everyone else sees, and try to explain it.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Oh I do respond decently until the children take it to the 10th level of bull**** where there is no point in dealing with them on an adult level. I dont need to lie, I have no problem supporting my positions, and I certainly dont need to make **** up like you continually do candy. People insult themselves when they pour on the bull**** and no better example of a tosser than you out here. But thanks this thread needed another does of bull**** as if its not already deep enough in the land of Oz.


Thank you for proving my point.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Shooting fish in a barrel is not too time-consuming. The only thing more efficient is giving the fish the guns and letting them shoot themselves. Unfortunately, their aim is often bad, resulting in mere flesh wounds and leaving an injured and angry fish flopping about. Compassion requires another well-placed shot or several violent smacks with the rifle butt.

negligible resistance is not in the mechanical engineering handbook...
The phrase 'neglible resistance" is not likely found in a common ME handbook, that's true. But the same is true for the word 'collapse'.

On the surface, it's a useless assertion. The principles of building collapse mechanics must be applied to the problem, and that topic is not discussed in ANY mechanical engineering handbook. KokomoJojo may as well have said negligible resistance is not in Shakespeare or Dr. Seuss.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

We must first parse the sentence appropriately to obtain meaning. What is meant by 'negligible resistance' and 'mechanical engineering handbook'? The definition of 'negligible' is:

Not significant or important enough to be worth considering; trifling.

So 'negligible resistance' is a resistive force which is trifling or not worth considering. That is somewhat subjective and depends on context. For this case, I think it's reasonable to assume the resistance is neglible for the purposes of providing a pivot if the resultant angular motion is not obviously different from an unconstrained fall.

Now, it's just down to what 'obvious' means in this context. 'Obvious' difference would be one which can be determined by casual visual inspection of the image evidence by a typical lay person. Someone who's spent hundreds or thousands of hours examining videos of the tower collapses with an eye towards resolving motion details will not technically be considered be a lay person, but may still have to resort to specific measurements in order to compare. I think everyone here is a lay person with respect to this subject, and I think everyone agrees there is not an obvious difference between WTC2's upper section angular motion and some CDs.

Now we have an agreeable (right?) standard on what constitutes 'negligible resistance', what about the 'handbook'?

As noted above, for building collapses, a common mechanical engineering handbook is about as useful as Horton Hears a Who.

If the subject is sufficiently advanced, like this is, a basic reference doesn't cover it and can't be used. A textbook for determining stability and residual capacity for structures is Stability of Structures by Bazant and Cedolin. You should recognize the first author's name. This is an appropriate engineer's handbook for the task, perhaps THE handbook for this purpose.

What does this reference say? As it stands, no matter what the reference says, it's not going to cover the topic of pregressive collapse directly, let alone the specialized subtopic of tilting of the south tower at the onset of collapse! It will still be up to the reader to apply the information to the problem at hand.

All of the above was required just make KokomoJojo's flippant remark interpretable within the context.
 
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