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"Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

The sad fact is, I know why you're doing everything possible to avoid answering this question. I also have a good sense of theater, though, and there are a lot of people watching right now.

well enjoy your day in school.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Yes.

See how easy that was? Try it yourself.

oti4x4.png


Symmetric or not?



its a demolition, how many more times do you want the same answer hannibal
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Ladies and gentlemen, hobos and tramps, cross-eyed mosquitos and bow-legged ants: I come before you to stand behind you to tell you a story I know nothing about...

Admission is free, so pay at the door; pull up a chair* and sit on the floor. In the middle of the day in the middle of the night, two black white boys went out to fight. Back to back they faced each other, pulled their swords and shot each other. A deaf policeman said he heard the noise, so he went and killed the two dead boys. A blind man claimed he saw it all through a knothole in a brick wall.



* a chair, as we know, being much more like a building than a building!
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Yes.

See how easy that was? Try it yourself.

oti4x4.png


Symmetric or not?

its a demolition, how many more times do you want the same answer hannibal

Multiple tenacious and brash refusals to answer a simple question. Need I say any more?
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Oh yes, there is at least one more thing to say. If you think I'm going to answer any of your questions after this bull****, you're as crazy as a no-planer.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Ladies and gentlemen, hobos and tramps, cross-eyed mosquitos and bow-legged ants: I come before you to stand behind you to tell you a story I know nothing about...

Admission is free, so pay at the door; pull up a chair* and sit on the floor. In the middle of the day in the middle of the night, two black white boys went out to fight. Back to back they faced each other, pulled their swords and shot each other. A deaf policeman said he heard the noise, so he went and killed the two dead boys. A blind man claimed he saw it all through a knothole in a brick wall.



* a chair, as we know, being much more like a building than a building!

well that was a rudimentary example that was intended to help the most ignorant debunkers with comprehension disorders.

It appears you simply do not grasp the issue under review despite I have explained it several ways.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Multiple tenacious and brash refusals to answer a simple question. Need I say any more?

I did, its a demolition.

Its not applicable to compare to a natural collapse.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Oh yes, there is at least one more thing to say. If you think I'm going to answer any of your questions after this bull****, you're as crazy as a no-planer.

Now see you havent shown us one damn thing regarding the plausibility of manner in which the wtc collapsed (well except beer farts and belches) and like a few of your friends you call me names to make up for your inadequacy.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

There is a word I coined specifically for psikeyhackr: obtustinate. I'm happy to see it has wider applicability than I first imagined.

I did, its a demolition.
So? Is it symmetrical in its collapse or not? Does symmetry have no meaning for you outside of the WTC buildings and chairs?

Its not applicable to compare to a natural collapse.
Ah, but a chair is! Comparable to a natural collapse of a building... No, that didn't fly the first time.

You're trying to cover the objection in advance, because you've seen for quite some time how you've boxed yourself in. What you don't seem to realize is you're in a box already, not just backed in to a corner from which you can escape. Refusal to answer only spotlights it.

The problem is you've offered up dissimilar buildings without impact and fire but also chairs and hollywood special effects (!) so are obviously in no position to object to a high rise structure consisting of multi interconnected columns that has asymmetrical damage - exactly what you asked for.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Now see you havent shown us one damn thing regarding the plausibility of manner in which the wtc collapsed (well except beer farts and belches) and like a few of your friends you call me names to make up for your inadequacy.
At this point - for all you know - I believe that all three towers were taken down by preplanted devices. Where have I said otherwise?
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

This is why KokomoJojo does not want to answer the question:

2nbhchg.png


This is why KokomoJojo wants to invoke "apples and oranges" on demolition. Let's not forget that KokomoJojo uses not only chairs and special effects in his/her examples - but also demolition! Yes, demolition is included in KokomoJojo's very first "gifplanation" of symmetry.

Why are chairs and special effects and demolitions okay for KokomoJojo but demolition alone not okay for me? Does that sound like a royally ****ed case of double standards or what?

If demolitions are not comparable to natural collapse, as KokomoJojo now maintains, then the gifplanation comparing demolition to WTC7 is not valid a priori since WTC7 is an unknown. Only if WTC7 is known to be a demolition is it presumably valid to compare to a demolition, otherwise not (according to KokomoJojo). The exact words were:

Its not applicable to compare to a natural collapse.

By KokomoJojo's own logic, and by including demolition as an ostensibly valid comparison to WTC7, it is apparent Kokomojojo has either assumed the conclusion of WTC7's demolition or not thought things through very well. Or both. My money is on both.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

... it is apparent Kokomojojo has either assumed the conclusion of WTC7's demolition or not thought things through very well. Or both.
or is pretending "Poeing".
... My money is on both.
Mine on a different "both". :roll:
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

You see, I'm not the one confusing an argument about symmetry with an argument about CD vs natural collapse. All I'm doing is taking on the symmetry argument, which is utter bull****. I'm not going to let this evasive nonsense drag on forever, waiting on an answer that will never come.

Is this symmetrical? (now it's a rhetorical question)

16kalvn.png

Larger image

The applied damage which induces initiation is asymmetrical. Regardless of whatever pre-weakening was done, symmetrical or otherwise, it was a self supporting structure until the charges went off. Those charges, which KokomoJojo chose to call "kicker" charges (the purpose of which is asymmetrical application of blast force) and which KokomoJojo claims "kicked it over", clearly speak of asymmetrical action.

Indeed, the building first develops a lean. This is spatial asymmetry, textbook definition. Only a 360 degree rotation preserves the original form. So I'd call this asymmetrical, no question.

KokomoJojo's definition/assertion was: Asymmetrical damage <=> Asymmetrical collapse... what's the problem? This is asymmetrical damage, asymmetrical collapse. Even though I don't abide by such naive physics, KokomoJojo's axiom is satisfied.

So why was it like pulling teeth for pages to unsuccessfully try to get an answer?
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

I'll tell you why: because KokomoJojo called the collapses at WTC symmetrical. It's a lynchpin argument. Render it invalid and a whole lot of chest beating over the years amounts to nothing.

They were not symmetrical, any more than Red Road demolition was symmetrical. WTC7 nearly so, but not totally so. I'm not the one here stuck on absolutes derived from an ill-formed understanding of physics. There are degrees of symmetry but that's not even the point. Symmetry as a concept really has no place in this argument.

The survival/demise of a structure has only to do with the existence of viable load paths which can produce and maintain static equilibrium. This states both the necessary and sufficient conditions for discrimination between collapse and arrest.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

...So why was it like pulling teeth for pages to unsuccessfully try to get an answer?
The objective is not discussion - it's chain jerking. So anything goes and the more nonsensical the better to serve the purpose provided the "victim"/opponent keeps feeding his ego.

So, tho' his primary objective is neither "truther" nor "Poe", the purpose is analogous to this:
Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution

Both you and I frustrate it by diametrically opposed tactics.

I don't feed trolls whatever sub-species they are. You carve them up by superior logic. And neither of us bite on the persistent insults and lies by innuendo and the other "stock in trade" trickery of today's second or third rate trolling. Remember the days when there were few trolls BUT they practised their trade by clever word play with nary an insult in sight. Fun and humour as the modus operandi. They died out as a genre about three years back.

(Here insert some word play on "psikological" as a sustained invariant example to allow calibration of the "level" of trolling.)
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

..Symmetry as a concept really has no place in this argument...
Of course. Neither has "free fall". Neither has "in its footprint". Neither has (fill in the canards I cannot remember at this time after a long day.)
.The survival/demise of a structure has only to do with the existence of viable load paths which can produce and maintain static equilibrium. This states both the necessary and sufficient conditions for discrimination between collapse and arrest.
Yes BUT...
...often we need to comprehend the specific details for the building. Remember that many (truthers or debunkers and a few in the grey areas) DON'T process generics very well.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

:popcorn2:
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Those charges, which KokomoJojo chose to call "kicker" charges (the purpose of which is asymmetrical application of blast force
<< In order to remove a piece of each specific selected column. NOT to tilt the building. However:
... and which KokomoJojo claims "kicked it over",
Guess what - cutting columns biased towards one side will tend to tilt the upper bit to that side.
clearly speak of asymmetrical action.
Symmetry as an issue mostly arises in the context of truth movement claims for CD. They use it opportunistically either way to imply something the want to claim - when in reality it does no such thing.

Indeed, the building first develops a lean. This is spatial asymmetry, textbook definition. Only a 360 degree rotation preserves the original form. So I'd call this asymmetrical, no question.

KokomoJojo's definition/assertion was: Asymmetrical damage <=> Asymmetrical collapse... what's the problem? This is asymmetrical damage, asymmetrical collapse. Even though I don't abide by such naive physics, KokomoJojo's axiom is satisfied.

So why was it like pulling teeth for pages to unsuccessfully try to get an answer?
Why chase him down the hole he wants to dig?
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

The objective is not discussion - it's chain jerking. So anything goes and the more nonsensical the better to serve the purpose provided the "victim"/opponent keeps feeding his ego.
This is so true. Continued engagement feeds the ego. Disengagement permits hollow declaration of victory. It's a win-win situation for the chain-jerker, at least in their eyes.

The wallowing in trivialities and nonsensical perceptions displace far more interesting discussion. I think that pisses me off the most. Yes, I do get pissed. Instead of asking why different structures exhibit different dynamics, the answers are assumed and flashy gifs prepared to convey the "truth" to... well, I was going to say willing consumers, but I don't see any truthers stepping to the plate to defend this symmetry/asymmetry crap. Which is odd, because the truthers abound, and symmetry is a big deal in CD land. For some reason, it's dead silence amongst the faithful.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

:popcorn2: :popcorn2:
Its interval. Main event "Handing Him his arse" in several episodes.

Please standby - the main feature will probably resume. Tho' I have counselled Kat to do something useful. :roll:
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

<< In order to remove a piece of each specific selected column. NOT to tilt the building.
Correct and I should've made that clear. If indeed those are so-called kicker charges (which they may or may not be) as opposed to cutters, their purpose would be to displace the columns to the side, effecting asymmetric damage to the framework (one thing) via an asymmetric action (another thing). The same basic globally asymmetric damage could be achieved with cutter charges only on one side.

They did not propel the building!

However: Guess what - cutting columns biased towards one side will tend to tilt the upper bit to that side.
Oh ****, I hit reply before reading. Yes. When support is lost on one side, it leans that way. Doesn't mean it's going to topple, or topple exclusively. At some point, with some structures, the descent outpaces the rotation.

Why chase him down the hole he wants to dig?
To spray the nest.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

... I think that pisses me off the most. Yes, I do get pissed. Instead of asking why different structures exhibit different dynamics, the answers are assumed and flashy gifs prepared to convey the "truth" to...
You are assuming that "they" (not just this example) are interested in truth and/or physics AKA engineering forensics. They aren't and they cannot discuss it at a level "we" would appreciate even if they were
...well, I was going to say willing consumers, but I don't see any truthers stepping to the plate to defend this symmetry/asymmetry crap. Which is odd, because the truthers abound, and symmetry is a big deal in CD land. For some reason, it's dead silence amongst the faithful.
Why the surprise. Few truthers can think - remember that is why many of them became truthers. So far you are the only person with whom I have enlarged on those "Twin Hypotheses" and "in another place". Certainly the ones we see here CANNOT do it. And you have had a privileged experience working elsewhere with some high grade genuine truthers. Don't expect that quality on other forums. :roll:

Remember a certain Tony is the prize example forAE911 and he is....err...he rarely if ever presents a plausible argument....:roll:
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

...often we need to comprehend the specific details for the building.
For some structures, it's not possible for viable load paths to ever develop. For others, it's just the opposite. With the repetitive, tight close-celled structures of diminutive apartment buildings, practically every orientation gives a self-supporting load path. If you see a building roll over onto its roof and survive, then it's true by definition. If the top half of the Balzac Vitry building were displaced a meter laterally, it would in all likelihood just stand there. Condemned, but self-supporting.

Take the birdcage of columns in the twin towers and displace them a meter laterally in any direction. Forget about munching the ends or distorting their lengths. Forget about fasteners and welds rotated beyond the limits of ductile elongation. Forget about tilting or dropping or any of that. Would it stand? No.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

You are assuming that "they" (not just this example) are interested in truth and/or physics AKA engineering forensics.
They should be. With all the talk about laws of physics you'd think they'd have a degree... you know, by now, if not beforehand. That's a funny thing about 9/11; a couple of planes crash into buildings and somehow thousands of physics and engineering degrees get conferred overnight to random people who never actually bothered taking a course. They were born knowing it, but it took 9/11 to bring out their inner Einstein.

Everyone's an expert, except of course actual experts who mysteriously got transformed into 'retards'* at the same time.



* not a cool term and not one I like to use in any case, but that's what KokomoJojo called the authors of a peer reviewed study many pages back.
 
re: "Amateur Engineering" practice in progressive collapse analysis[W:222, 344. 1463]

Tho' I have counselled Kat to do something useful. :roll:
Taking said counsel, again, for the time being.
 
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