All of a sudden Keynesian economics is OK by conservatives

[Hawkeye10]

I don't know about that. The Kochs were trying to spook the ignorant masses to advance certain personal agendas. It backfired on them.

----------------
snip.

I suspect that you have issues with your information sourcing:

Trump’s Koch administration - POLITICO


Trump is their biggest payoff yet.

 

[Moot]

Obama spent plenty of money. Much of it was just on the type of things. In other words, he was frivolous.

PS : Much of the infrastructure etc built by governments is not appropriate spending for governments.

Why not? Most private for profit companies don't have the resources or desire, let alone the co-operation from the public, to build large scale infrastructure projects on their own.

 

[imagep]

Shhhh. Just don't tell the Trump supporters that. They have been led to believe that we have an Obama economic "disaster", that our unemployment is "really" at 20%, that our crime rate is the highest in the last half century, that hordes of illegal Mexicans and Muslims are pouring across the border and raping and murdering and terrorizing everyone in sight, etc.... basically, for them, the sky is literally falling.

Assuming that the Trump presidency survives the next four years, I wonder if conservatives are still going to be as negative as they are today. They always seem to have this pessimistic negative outlook on most everything. Except for tax cuts for the rich of course.

 

[Napoleon]

Cincinatti has been run by what party since 1984?

*****MIC DROP************

The state of our infrastructure has no partisan bias in its origin.

 

[justabubba]

I dont buy the argument that Conservatives molded the people into the stupid masses. The people are generally stupid to start with, because of bad education and bad parenting. Conservatives messed up by lying to the people, and not attempting to do their work, as they propagandized their excuses for their failure to perform. For extra credit they capitulated to liberalism on language/mind controls and their war against white men.

The people eventually got to "ENOUGH!"

We tend to be stupid, but not THAT stupid.

[red emphasis added by bubba]

i must say, that post was convincing

 

[beerftw]

After spending the last 8 years blocking every attempt by the Obama administration to invest in infrastructure and stimulating the economy, calling it big government Marxist tyranny, and going everything America stands for, and something that has been proven repeatedly not to work, etc... all of a sudden Keynesian economic stimulus seems to be all the rage among our conservative friends:

"“We are going to fix our inner cities and rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals,” Trump said. “We’re going to rebuild our infrastructure, which will become, by the way, second to none. And we will put millions of our people to work as we rebuild it.”"
-Donald Trump

Oh, and what was that? Are you saying that Trump is not a real conservative, but some kind of RINO? What about Mr. Rush Limbaugh, who was falling all over himself to praise the new proposed stimulus plan?

"If Trump actually follows through on this trillion dollars to modernize airports, you’re gonna have conservative arguments against it claiming this is not how it works. This is still federal spending, it’s still budget busting, it’s still massively expanding the government. However, there will be tangible results that will result in improved and modernized airports, which will make them more economically booming, which they will then be able to attract more traffic, more landings and takeoffs, which include fees, more cargo being moved back and forth through them. So it’s gonna be an interesting philosophical argument. The idea of conservatism and smaller government, less government.

And then on the other hand, the projects we’re talking about . . . who builds them? I mean the federal government built the interstate highway system. It was a federal government expense. Same thing with those two bridges. They did it in connection with the states, I mean, there was, there was a lot of cooperation on all of these, the Hoover Dam in Nevada, and so forth. And there were other things. And don’t forget, even prior to that, we did the Panama Canal, even prior to the 1930s.

The point is, in the past, with a much smaller economy, and a much lower standard of living, we have been far more productive. We have built many more projects at a much faster rate before all the environmental impact studies were necessary, and all this. And if Trump does this and if there are witnessable, demonstrable results of modernization at airports, you’re gonna be hard-pressed to get people to find a problem with it."
-Rush Limbaugh

This is reminiscent of Glenn Beck, who, in September of 2008, as the chasm of the Great Recession was beginning to yawn before us but right before we knew Obama was going to be the next president, said of stimulus spending:

"“[W]e are in the middle of an all-out financial emergency, and emergencies have a way of really testing people. In normal times, under normal circumstances, if you tune in to me, you know me as somebody who would tell the federal government exactly where to take their bailout plans and shove it right up their you-know-what. But these are anything but normal times. I thought about it an awful lot this weekend, and while it takes me — it takes everything in me to say this, I think the bailout is the right thing do.

“The ‘Real Story’ is: The $700 billion that you’re hearing about now is not only, I believe, necessary, it is also not nearly enough, and all of the weasels in Washington know it.”
-Glenn Beck

Fast forward a few months, with Obama in the whitehouse, and all of a sudden Keynesian stimulus spending was the most evil communist tyrannical proposal ever.

Come on, guys. It's clear that it's not Keynesian stimulus that you have a problem with. It's just that you want YOUR guy to do it. It's not about ideology. It's just about power. You obstruct when you don't have it, and you push it when you do- the welfare and immediate needs of the country be dam-ed. Party before politics, right?

Keynesian economics was always ok by republicans when a republican is in the white house. Infact we really only had a single president practice supply side economics, and that was reagan, and even then he heavily mixed it with keynesian economics.

The only real difference seems to be where the money goes in keynesian economics, democrats prefer welfare programs and infrastructure, republicans prefer tax cuts and military spending. In both cases it uses govt money to infuse cash into the economy, same beast different method.

 

[Fenton]

After spending the last 8 years blocking every attempt by the Obama administration to invest in infrastructure and stimulating the economy, calling it big government Marxist tyranny, and going everything America stands for, and something that has been proven repeatedly not to work, etc... all of a sudden Keynesian economic stimulus seems to be all the rage among our conservative friends:

"“We are going to fix our inner cities and rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals,” Trump said. “We’re going to rebuild our infrastructure, which will become, by the way, second to none. And we will put millions of our people to work as we rebuild it.”"
-Donald Trump

Oh, and what was that? Are you saying that Trump is not a real conservative, but some kind of RINO? What about Mr. Rush Limbaugh, who was falling all over himself to praise the new proposed stimulus plan?

"If Trump actually follows through on this trillion dollars to modernize airports, you’re gonna have conservative arguments against it claiming this is not how it works. This is still federal spending, it’s still budget busting, it’s still massively expanding the government. However, there will be tangible results that will result in improved and modernized airports, which will make them more economically booming, which they will then be able to attract more traffic, more landings and takeoffs, which include fees, more cargo being moved back and forth through them. So it’s gonna be an interesting philosophical argument. The idea of conservatism and smaller government, less government.

And then on the other hand, the projects we’re talking about . . . who builds them? I mean the federal government built the interstate highway system. It was a federal government expense. Same thing with those two bridges. They did it in connection with the states, I mean, there was, there was a lot of cooperation on all of these, the Hoover Dam in Nevada, and so forth. And there were other things. And don’t forget, even prior to that, we did the Panama Canal, even prior to the 1930s.

The point is, in the past, with a much smaller economy, and a much lower standard of living, we have been far more productive. We have built many more projects at a much faster rate before all the environmental impact studies were necessary, and all this. And if Trump does this and if there are witnessable, demonstrable results of modernization at airports, you’re gonna be hard-pressed to get people to find a problem with it."
-Rush Limbaugh

This is reminiscent of Glenn Beck, who, in September of 2008, as the chasm of the Great Recession was beginning to yawn before us but right before we knew Obama was going to be the next president, said of stimulus spending:

"“[W]e are in the middle of an all-out financial emergency, and emergencies have a way of really testing people. In normal times, under normal circumstances, if you tune in to me, you know me as somebody who would tell the federal government exactly where to take their bailout plans and shove it right up their you-know-what. But these are anything but normal times. I thought about it an awful lot this weekend, and while it takes me — it takes everything in me to say this, I think the bailout is the right thing do.

“The ‘Real Story’ is: The $700 billion that you’re hearing about now is not only, I believe, necessary, it is also not nearly enough, and all of the weasels in Washington know it.”
-Glenn Beck

Fast forward a few months, with Obama in the whitehouse, and all of a sudden Keynesian stimulus spending was the most evil communist tyrannical proposal ever.

Come on, guys. It's clear that it's not Keynesian stimulus that you have a problem with. It's just that you want YOUR guy to do it. It's not about ideology. It's just about power. You obstruct when you don't have it, and you push it when you do- the welfare and immediate needs of the country be dam-ed. Party before politics, right?

Find one post of mine that supports Trumps infrastructure stimulus initiative ?

The Conservatives I know also oppose it. Believe it or not, its possible to have voted for Trump, and still not agree with his every position

 

[Fenton]

The state of our infrastructure has no partisan bias in its origin.

Sure it does. " Infrastructure investment " is a generic term used by Govts to convince the masses that massive new Fed spending is necessary.

Its spending is also aimed at parts of the Nation who's infrasture has suffered for decades due to incompetent and corupt local Politicians.

Places like Flint, Detroit and California. We should not be bailing out the results of decades of Liberal Democrat corruption and incompetence with Federal dollars.

 

[Napoleon]

Sure it does. " Infrastructure investment " is a generic term used by Govts to convince the masses that massive new Fed spending is necessary.

Its spending is also aimed at parts of the Nation who's infrasture has suffered for decades due to incompetent and corupt local Politicians.

Places like Flint, Detroit and California. We should not be bailing out the results of decades of Liberal Democrat corruption and incompetence with Federal dollars.

There's definitely a sickness inside you if you truly believe that partisan hackery.

 

[Eric7216]

"“We are going to fix our inner cities and rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals,” Trump said. “We’re going to rebuild our infrastructure, which will become, by the way, second to none. And we will put millions of our people to work as we rebuild it.”"
-Donald Trump
Come on, guys. It's clear that it's not Keynesian stimulus that you have a problem with. It's just that you want YOUR guy to do it. It's not about ideology. It's just about power. You obstruct when you don't have it, and you push it when you do- the welfare and immediate needs of the country be dam-ed. Party before politics, right?

Obama's stimulus, which was supposed to go to "shovel ready" projects ended up going for 1)tax cuts for the people working who did not need an additional tax cut, 2)cities and states to payoff their Democrat supporting public unions, and 3)perhaps a $100 billion for actual infrastructure projects which we needed and we need even more now.
And, unfortunately, Trump seems to want to pay for his projects in the same way that Obama did, by giving tax cuts. (Obama adopted the Bush tax cuts and made 80% of them permanent)

 

[SocialD]

Did you try explaining that to the "Freedom Caucus" and the Tea Partiers in congress when they were blocking Obama at every turn when he was standing in front of a crumbling bridge, as the US economy was desperately trying to get back on its feet after the worst recession in its history, begging them to invest in infrastructure jobs?

"“It makes absolutely no sense when there’s so much work to be done and more than a million construction workers unemployed",Obama said, standing in front of the Francis Scott Key Bridge, which has been declared structurally deficient.

Obama said Americans are paying nearly $130 billion a year to use bridges and roads that are out of date and unequipped to serve today’s society.

He said the U.S. could be paying workers to rebuild these roads and compete with other countries transportation systems.

Europe invests twice as much of its overall economy as the U.S. does on transportation infrastructure,Obama said,while China invests four times as much.

“How do we sit back and watch China and Europe build the best bridges and high-speed railroads and gleaming new airports,and we’re doing nothing?” Obama asked.

Seth Kerns,28,of Celina,Ohio,who owns a small construction business with his brother,said other countries’ transportations systems are beyond anything in the U.S.

Standing with his wife,Kristen,27,two children,Ian,4,and Logan,3,and recently unemployed mother,Teressa,57,Kerns said he’s seen the effects the economy has on construction workers.

Last month,the Senate blocked the entire $447 billion American Jobs Act and a $35 billion measure that would fund salaries for teachers and first responders. The infrastructure measure will be the second part of the jobs bill put up for vote."
President Obama pushing Congress to rebuild roads,bridges | Scripps Howard Foundation Wire

That too didn't pass. Too much big government. Tyranny, you know. The free market takes care of everything. Well, at least until Trump was in power. Now, of course, finally, a real leader is in charge who will invest in our economy and jobs and infrastructure and make America Great Again! Amiright?

I don't know that I read the bill that Obama was putting forth back then. Often times , and republicans have done this too, you have spending unrelated to the issue at hand attached to spending bills.
A cursory examination of the American jobs bill referred to in your initial linked article shows that a large chunk of the spending in the bill that Obama was pressing for at that time was not for roads and bridges but for extending unemployment benefits and items related to that. This was probably one of the things that people were opposed to. I was opposed to it.
But I'm certainly not against infra spending. Eisenhower did it.

 

[Thumper]

Don't forget that Trump was a Democrat before he became a Republican. Old failed ideas die hard. We're talking the master of bankruptcies here. Rumor has it The Donald was a Democrat when he bankrupted his business 4 or was it 5 times?

Democrats hated Bush cause he grew the power and scope of government more in 8 years than they had in the previous 20. Then along comes Obama,,,,,

Now Trump is like "Hold my beer and watch this."

 

[SailaWay]

So what did the stock market hitting record highs under Obama mean?

U cannot admit how totally wrong with your strong statement saying Alberta is not the richest province. Can you not read or is it a logic problem? Making a statement so strongly and being so wrong makes you lose all credibility

 

[joG]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The government contracts the work of public infrastructure maintenance to private companies.

That is quite true. The thing is that infrastructure is mostly no longer a public good in the economic sense. Economics says that allowing government to run private goods is inefficient.

 

[joG]

that's fair enough.

Right now, in todays economy, there is no need for Keynesian economics. We are sub 5% U3 and falling, the economy is growing, etc.

But, there are a good many people who believe that new money creation by the government and increases in government spending is always needed, regardless of the economy. There may be some truth to that, as a nation grows larger, it's government probably should spend more, and as an economy grows larger, it needs more money to facilitate trade. Which economy needs more money, your household, or your state? Obviously, your state. And between your state and a much larger state, wouldn't it only make sense that the larger state spend more money? So as your state (or country) expands, it's going to need to spend more money also - else we risk a shortage of infrastructure and well being of the citizens (which well being of the work force and of the customer base is actually part of infrastructure).

Theory describes an optimum amount of debt. That is about where debt should be growing some, when Keynes calls an falling back, when the economy chugs along.

 

[joG]

In my county, the county provides water to virtually every home and business. It's reasonably priced and of reasonably good quality. I dunno how that is wasteful. It would be far more wasteful if we had a dozen water companies all running water mains down every street and to every house.

You would have to look at the total system. Usually the price is too low. The answer is invariably in the political method setting the price. This is nearly always different in its outcome that come about by market pricing. The problem you often have with the supply of water in a community is the monopolistic structure of supply.

 

[joG]

Why not? Most private for profit companies don't have the resources or desire, let alone the co-operation from the public, to build large scale infrastructure projects on their own.

What projects are too large for private investors? I don't see a limiting factor there. 100 years ago financial markets are enough advanced to find any amount of money, if the project is worth the investment.

 

[DA60]

Fact remains that with both Trump and the GOP congress now, they can't wait to start trying to make themselves good by blowing huge amounts of money on stimulus spending. Expect a lot of sugar rush in the economy for the next few years.

There is no question Keynesian economics works. It's only "Marxist big government tyranny" when the GOP is not in power when it happens.

Guess again...there is massive evidence that massive government intervention and/or Keynesian economics are huge failures. The New Deal is one.

If you think the economy is doing so brilliantly - than you just proved you do not know what you are talking about.

There are many examples I have shown numerous times.

But one basic one is - if the economy is SOOO great, why are interest rates still so ridiculously low, why is QE still going on and why did the Fed keep saying that the economy is not strong enough to raise rates or stop QE - both of whom it desperately wants to do?
The question is rhetorical as the answer is obvious. That economy still is very weak and would collapse without massive Fed intervention and the Fed knows it which is why it does not dare end near-ZIRP/QE.

Until interest rates are back to historical norms, QE is over, the budget is balanced/near balanced and the economy does not collapse within six months - ONLY then can you rightly claim Keynesianism worked.

Let me know when that happens - because I guarantee you it never will.

It never did in the 1930's - it took WW2 to reset the economy.


BTW - I am neither Rep nor Dem and I am dead set against government stimulus.

 

[DamnYankee]

So that doesn't answer the point that governors like Perry used money meant for recovery to fill the deficit gaps created by their tax policies. They didn't just do that with the Stimulus...Conservative governors use the Welfare Block Grant the same way (and have since 1996). That's why they want to change Medicaid to a block grant...that way, Conservatives can use part of that block grant to make the deficits that come from their tax cuts go away.

When it comes down to it, Conservatives are the real welfare queens. Using welfare to plug their deficits that are created by their artificially low tax rate. If the gravy train ended to the red states in terms of block grants and such, you'd see those taxes in those states shoot upwards.

Leftists in Washington couldn't wait to piss away billions of dollars and double the debt. This is what I mean when I say leftist screw up everything they touch. No wonder decent normal Americans have chased leftists from over 1200 offices nationwide. Keep up the good work.

 

[Incisor]

Leftists in Washington couldn't wait to piss away billions of dollars and double the debt.

Are you kidding? Who was it who tripled the debt? Reagan. Who else doubled the debt? Bush the Dumber. Don't pretend like you care about the debt.

 

[ataraxia]

BTW - I am neither Rep nor Dem and I am dead set against government stimulus.

So I'm guessing you are against Trump's infrastructure spending proposals as well?

 

[ataraxia]

Leftists in Washington couldn't wait to piss away billions of dollars and double the debt. This is what I mean when I say leftist screw up everything they touch. No wonder decent normal Americans have chased leftists from over 1200 offices nationwide. Keep up the good work.

Trump's infrastructure stimulus proposal and tax cuts are thought to add an additional $10 trillion dollars to the debt. I assume you are against that too?

 

[Fenton]

There's definitely a sickness inside you if you truly believe that partisan hackery.

Right back at you. Liberals were blaming Flynt lead levels on GOP Governor, wouldnt throw stones if I were you

 

[Napoleon]

Right back at you. Liberals were blaming Flynt lead levels on GOP Governor, wouldnt throw stones if I were you

The GOP governor knew about it and his administration tried to conceal the fact that was happening while his constituents were left with a choice between lead poisononing or no water and doing nothing to resolve it. BIG difference.

 

[Vern]

Obama's stimulus, which was supposed to go to "shovel ready" projects ended up going for 1)tax cuts for the people working who did not need an additional tax cut, 2)cities and states to payoff their Democrat supporting public unions, and 3)perhaps a $100 billion for actual infrastructure projects which we needed and we need even more now.
And, unfortunately, Trump seems to want to pay for his projects in the same way that Obama did, by giving tax cuts. (Obama adopted the Bush tax cuts and made 80% of them permanent)

Eric, you have to understand you “remember “ it that way so you can criticize President Obama’s stimulus. The tax cuts had an income cutoff so the taxes went to people who would spend it. The money to the states was mostly to stop their layoffs. Since states have “balanced budget” spending limits, they were adding to the layoffs. And that was only making things worse. You may be right about the total infrastructure spending but President Obama’s stimulus with help from the Cash for Clunkers and auto bailout ended the Great Bush Recession. That’s a “successful mission” by any standards and we learned from the Yemen threads that it more than exceeds conservative standards for success.

The question you should ask yourself is why infrastructure spending and tax cuts for people who actually wont spend it is now acceptable when infrastructure spending, tax cuts for people who will spend it were unacceptable when the economy was cratering at -8.2% and losing 600,000 jobs a month?