• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Aggression Has Been Rewarded

Jack Hays said:
We, and our NATO allies, should be providing to the Ukrainians the weapons and training they need to defend themselves from aggression.
Click to expand...

uhhhh, why exactly?
to initiate WW3 when Russia calls in SCO allies ?


keep in mind Ukraine recently decided to NOT pursue NATO alliance.
 
Jack Hays said:
We, and our NATO allies, should be providing to the Ukrainians the weapons and training they need to defend themselves from aggression.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that Europe, led by Merkle, doesn't have the stomach for that. The reasonable counter argument to weapons is that Putin wouldn't wait for those weapons to get to the Ukrainians before escalating and indeed defeating the Ukrainians before those weapons could make a difference. Essentially, that weapons would be the catalyst to escalation.

Personally, I lean toward your argument, but I don't like the method. There are other ways for the Ukrainians to find themselves properly armed with what they need...
 
SBu said:
It seems to me that Europe, led by Merkle, doesn't have the stomach for that. The reasonable counter argument to weapons is that Putin wouldn't wait for those weapons to get to the Ukrainians before escalating and indeed defeating the Ukrainians before those weapons could make a difference. Essentially, that weapons would be the catalyst to escalation.

Personally, I lean toward your argument, but I don't like the method. There are other ways for the Ukrainians to find themselves properly armed with what they need...
Click to expand...

If Putin succeeds in Ukraine then he will turn to the Baltic States, NATO members. What "other ways" do you envision for the Ukrainians to find themselves properly armed?
 
Jack Hays said:
If Putin succeeds in Ukraine then he will turn to the Baltic States, NATO members. What "other ways" do you envision for the Ukrainians to find themselves properly armed?
Click to expand...

Perhaps the Saudis or similar friend could be persuaded to sell certain systems/weapons to the Ukrainians for a discount. There are ways for a state to get its hands on things without coming directly from the US/Europe.
 
Jack Hays said:
If Putin succeeds in Ukraine then he will turn to the Baltic States, NATO members. What "other ways" do you envision for the Ukrainians to find themselves properly armed?
Click to expand...

Heya JH :2wave: You don't think Putin stops once he has the land bridge to the Crimea?
 
SBu said:
Perhaps the Saudis or similar friend could be persuaded to sell certain systems/weapons to the Ukrainians for a discount. There are ways for a state to get its hands on things without coming directly from the US/Europe.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I doubt the Saudis could handle the scale required or gain access to the level of weaponry sophistication required without dealing with US or European suppliers.
 
Jack Hays said:
Hmmm. I doubt the Saudis could handle the scale required or gain access to the level of weaponry sophistication required without dealing with US or European suppliers.
Click to expand...

Deny-ability is the objective here. Putin has taught us that the plausible deny-ability is irrelevant, so just the ability to deny is good enough.
 
SBu said:
Deny-ability is the objective here. Putin has taught us that the plausible deny-ability is irrelevant, so just the ability to deny is good enough.
Click to expand...

I don't think there would be any deniability, certainly none that Putin would care about. Better to confront him directly.
 
Jack Hays said:
I don't think there would be any deniability, certainly none that Putin would care about. Better to confront him directly.
Click to expand...

If we play the direct armament card, then it is unusable in the future. If we play the indirect arming card, then we still have the direct arming card up our sleeve to play should Putin react unfavorably.

If we directly arm and it goes bad for us, it could be a source of division with our European friends. Whereas if Putin reacts unfavorably to indirect arming, then we retain the moral high ground by applying the direct arming card.

I think it's worth a shot first. The Saudis would be perfect conduits due to their distaste for Russia.
 
Jack Hays said:
Not at all. In fact, if he stops there then there's a real possibility he only drives the Ukrainians further into Europe's arms.
Click to expand...

Will they be able to bale them out.....as he will have most of the industrial areas wont he?
 
Again, how exactly has Russian aggression been "rewarded"?
 
MMC said:
Will they be able to bale them out.....as he will have most of the industrial areas wont he?
Click to expand...

There would be plenty left, especially rich agricultural areas. Plus, the eastern industrial area is almost all based on old technology that will require thorough reinvestment anyway.
 
Arming the Ukrainians would be a huge mistake.

First of all it wouldn't do any good because Russia could flood eastern Ukraine with more weapons, faster, than we could possibly ship to Kiev. The result would be a proxy war which would cause death on a massive scale and not deliver a victory for the Ukrainian army, anyway.

Second, and equally important, have any of you actually paid attention to who exactly makes up the Ukrainian army? History should have taught us by now what happens when you give sophisticated weapons to unsavory characters.

And what do we really have to gain here, anyway? Ukraine? A cesspool of corruption and a financial black hole? I think what we should be doing is taking a step back and viewing this thing for what it really is. Two years ago the entire country of Ukraine was securely under Russia's thumb. Today, most of Ukraine except for Crimea is on the cusp of aligning themselves with Europe. People seem to be viewing this thing backwards. Wresting MOST of Ukraine from Russia is still a victory of sorts.

Are the regions demanding autonomy really worth the cost? Hell no!! IMO.
 
Jack Fabulous said:
Arming the Ukrainians would be a huge mistake.

First of all it wouldn't do any good because Russia could flood eastern Ukraine with more weapons, faster, than we could possibly ship to Kiev. The result would be a proxy war which would cause death on a massive scale and not deliver a victory for the Ukrainian army, anyway.

Second, and equally important, have any of you actually paid attention to who exactly makes up the Ukrainian army? History should have taught us by now what happens when you give sophisticated weapons to unsavory characters.

And what do we really have to gain here, anyway? Ukraine? A cesspool of corruption and a financial black hole? I think what we should be doing is taking a step back and viewing this thing for what it really is. Two years ago the entire country of Ukraine was securely under Russia's thumb. Today, most of Ukraine except for Crimea is on the cusp of aligning themselves with Europe. People seem to be viewing this thing backwards. Wresting MOST of Ukraine from Russia is still a victory of sorts.

Are the regions demanding autonomy really worth the cost? Hell no!! IMO.
Click to expand...

Just as the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia was not Hitler's ultimate objective, eastern Ukraine is not Putin's. His objective is to destroy the prospect of a Europe-oriented Ukraine. Then, with Europe cowed, he would turn his attention to the Baltic States and the dismemberment of NATO. Despite their success against the poorly equipped and organized Ukrainians, the Russians don't really have ground forces fit for a large conflict. We should call their bluff.
 
Jack Hays said:
The price of oil and the value of the ruble have both been lowered by frackers.
Click to expand...

More accurately by the Saudis/OPEC's reaction to the frackers. A perfect storm for the Saudis to assert their interests/power in several areas at once.
 
SBu said:
More accurately by the Saudis/OPEC's reaction to the frackers. A perfect storm for the Saudis to assert their interests/power in several areas at once.
Click to expand...

In a gentler age that was called "enlightened self-interest."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom