Again, why Medicare for All would never work (1 Viewer)

[aociswundumho]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.


Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Hospitals would be swamped. Doctors would be way overbooked.

The next step is waiting lists.

The NHS has 6 million patients on waiting lists.

In Canada, the average wait time from initial visit to treatment is over six months.

Our system would be 5x times larger than the NHS. Socialist institutions work worse the bigger they get.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

 

[BirdinHand]

Weird how every other civilized country has universal healthcare in some fashion..but somehow it just isn’t possible here.

 

[aociswundumho]

Weird how every other civilized country has universal healthcare in some fashion..but somehow it just isn’t possible here.

No, it's possible. It's just not going to be what you think/hope/wish it will be.

I laid out the argument in simple terms, feel free to attack it.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Weird how every other civilized country has universal healthcare in some fashion..but somehow it just isn’t possible here.

 

[Crakhobarbie]

No, it's possible. It's just not going to be what you think/hope/wish it will be.

I laid out the argument in simple terms, feel free to attack it.

Well, you made a claim.
An unsubstantiated claim.
And, as is evident from nearly every other civilized country, universal healthcare is fully viable, which is real World evidence that you are wrong.

Now you....

 

[Iwilltalktoanyone]

No, it's possible. It's just not going to be what you think/hope/wish it will be.

I laid out the argument in simple terms, feel free to attack it.

I generally agree with you, but I have one question.

Wouldn't it be better to have a mixed system? Not something like "medicare for all" because some people clearly can afford for healthcare, but keeping a government system involved for the few which are unfortunate enough to not be able to afford it, or some other alternative to it entirely?

(Food for thought)

 

[dmpi]

The root problem is medical care and services inside the United States is extremely expensive. There's pleny of blame to pass around: picky consumer, insurance companies, medical providers, lawsuits, excessive regulations, etc. If medical care was cheap like in other countries then you don't even need universal healthcare. Everyone just pays out of pocket.

 

[Threegoofs]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.


Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Hospitals would be swamped. Doctors would be way overbooked.

The next step is waiting lists.

The NHS has 6 million patients on waiting lists.

In Canada, the average wait time from initial visit to treatment is over six months.

Our system would be 5x times larger than the NHS. Socialist institutions work worse the bigger they get.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

And your solution is let people remain sick.

Brilliant.

 

[Crakhobarbie]

The root problem is medical care and services inside the United States is extremely expensive.

And yet every other civilized country on the planet manages just fine.
Which proves, beyond a doubt, that universal healthcare is viable.

Thus, you are wrong again.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong so often?

 

[Threegoofs]

The root problem is medical care and services inside the United States is extremely expensive. There's pleny of blame to pass around: picky consumer, insurance companies, medical providers, lawsuits, excessive regulations, etc. If medical care was cheap like in other countries then you don't even need universal healthcare. Everyone just pays out of pocket.

Yeah- you need a cardiac stent, pacemaker, and ICD. It’s gonna be really cheap to get that implanted, the surgical prep team and cath lab space, and devices procured.

Just like all those other places where people pay out of pocket.

 

[Allan]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.


Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Hospitals would be swamped. Doctors would be way overbooked.

The next step is waiting lists.

The NHS has 6 million patients on waiting lists.

In Canada, the average wait time from initial visit to treatment is over six months.

Our system would be 5x times larger than the NHS. Socialist institutions work worse the bigger they get.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

The thing that works in all other developed countries won't work in America.

Got it.

 

[ScrambledEggs]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.


Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Hospitals would be swamped. Doctors would be way overbooked.

The next step is waiting lists.

The NHS has 6 million patients on waiting lists.

In Canada, the average wait time from initial visit to treatment is over six months.

Our system would be 5x times larger than the NHS. Socialist institutions work worse the bigger they get.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing or a "flip of a switch". Obviously there would need to be a long transition period. Not like Trump's retarded tariffs.

In the long run costs would go down & the nation would be healthier.

 

[dmpi]

Yeah- you need a cardiac stent, pacemaker, and ICD. It’s gonna be really cheap to get that implanted, the surgical prep team and cath lab space, and devices procured.

Just like all those other places where people pay out of pocket.

I got some relatives in Taiwan, and they do pay out of pocket for their medical care. Doctor visit is $40, MRI or CAT scan is like $200, simple ER room procedures are like $100. If you got something real serious it might be a few thousands dollars.

 

[Iwilltalktoanyone]

Well, you made a claim.
An unsubstantiated claim.
And, as is evident from nearly every other civilized country, universal healthcare is fully viable.
Real World evidence that you are wrong.

Now you....

In defense of your criticism, I can understand where you are coming from, every other western or westernized country has made an effort to secure citizens full healthcare, and I think that is purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but with that said:

I think that it depends on the type of system. If the economy (placed in the hands of the government) fully gives over its control over resources regarding healthcare, how are we to ensure that it is efficiently administered? If the people at the hospital (doctors, nurses, etc.) are working on a salary paid by the government, they will not work for profit; No incentive to compete with other healthcare providers or use their money wisely for the people, this is only one scenario of how it's administered (keep this in mind), and I think it's why people against universal healthcare don't tend to like the idea.

They are dealing with the lives of the people, if it is done wrong, there are many more affected than if we were to stay with the same system. (not that this system is good though)

Genuinely interested in the concept, but a little skeptical.

 

[Cosmo]

You can't have:

• ability to sue for and win millions for medical mistakes
• no wait lists
• free
• highly trained doctors with years of education and experience
• high quality
• all of the above serving a generally unhealthy, obese population
• freeloaders adding to the above unhealthy, obese population by jumping the border to get free care

America is one of the top destinations for medical tourism in the world: https://hospitalcmq.com/medical-tourism/statistics/
So we must be doing something right. The fix isn't a simple matter of let's just make it free.

 

[Cosmo]

Weird how every other civilized country has universal healthcare in some fashion..but somehow it just isn’t possible here.

There's already Medicaid for the poor. If you have money and income, you're expected to pay for it, either out of pocket or by working for health insurance, until you run out and then get on Medicaid. Why is that so wrong?

 

[Threegoofs]

I got some relatives in Taiwan, and they do pay out of pocket for their medical care. Doctor visit is $40, MRI or CAT scan is like $200, simple ER room procedures are like $100. If you got something real serious it might be a few thousands dollars.

And a stent is?

Well, given it might be placed in an emergent situation, with an unconscious patient, do they rifle through the wallet before placing it?

You don’t know. Or care, because your dystopic, limited conception of health care is about as well thought through as trumps tariffs.

 

[ConWolf]

Weird how every other civilized country has universal healthcare in some fashion..but somehow it just isn’t possible here.

Just what does that mean?

His point is valid.

Your point is true.

So, possibly we won't fund all that people want.

And that must be true in the civilized world.

NHS patients are more likely to die – it is right to ask why

Last week a think-tank report drew newspaper headlines with the claim that the NHS ranked second from bottom across "a series of major health outcomes" compared with other international systems. Does the NHS really perform so badly internationally, and is there a real problem with our health...

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk

Ooops.

Now, I think a good discussion about health insurance is in order and we have NEVER had that.

 

[dmpi]

And a stent is?

Well, given it might be placed in an emergent situation, with an unconscious patient, do they rifle through the wallet before placing it?

You don’t know. Or care, because your dystopic, limited conception of health care is about as well thought through as trumps tariffs.

What are you saying? Everyone's else medical care is substandard? People in other counties have a different philosophy. They understand nothing is free. They save their money for emergencies. That have a extended family that takes care of one and another. Nobody is dying in the streets, even in third world countries like the Philippines.

 

[Grand Mal]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.


Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Hospitals would be swamped. Doctors would be way overbooked.

The next step is waiting lists.

The NHS has 6 million patients on waiting lists.

In Canada, the average wait time from initial visit to treatment is over six months.

Where do you get this shit from?

Our system would be 5x times larger than the NHS. Socialist institutions work worse the bigger they get.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

 

[Threegoofs]

What are you saying? Everyone's else medical care is substandard? People in other counties have a different philosophy. They understand nothing is free. They save their money for emergencies. That have a extended family that takes care of one and another. Nobody is dying in the streets, even in third world countries like the Philippines.

LOL

The sad thing is you think you’re correct.

 

[tshade]

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Maybe---not sure. I pay nothing for HC, and I stay away as much as possible.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

Unhealthy citizens are even more expensive


One alternative would be to SLOWLY drop the medicare age. Make it 64 by 2027. Then 63 by 2030. etc,,,,,,,until maybe age 40. Most illness is after 40............................etc...

 

[gbg3]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.


Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Hospitals would be swamped. Doctors would be way overbooked.

The next step is waiting lists.

The NHS has 6 million patients on waiting lists.

In Canada, the average wait time from initial visit to treatment is over six months.

Our system would be 5x times larger than the NHS. Socialist institutions work worse the bigger they get.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

I completely agree with all of this.

As the years have gone by and as I've moved from employer based insurance to Medicare with a Supplemental, I very much see the wisdom in Medicare but also in keeping it just for us old folks. I hope Congress will fix Medicare such that it can be sustained.

If everyone was on it, it would be exactly like you described in your good comment - long wait times, delayed surgeries, crazy high taxes, overbooked docs, lack of hospital space, etc.

But as it is, when young and working, we do pay quite a bit for our insurance and we don't overuse the system because of deductibles and such. But then, when we turn 65, we go on Medicare and it's cheaper than it was but at the time of life when most medical problems crop up, it's readily available and plentiful for those on Medicare. I kind of did what you described - flooded the system when I reached Medicare age. I had some things I'd sort of held off on but once on Medicare, it was a piece of cake to have everything looked into and addressed. And I could get it all scheduled so quickly and easily. I saw multiple specialists and had many various scans and tests done - hip stuff, heart stuff, bone stuff and more. Now I'm very up to date on everything which I was concerned about or even just questioned.

That's not at all the way this would have turned out if the system were suddenly flooded with everyone, exactly like you described. Our healthcare is pricier for the young but it's fabulous, plentiful, and available for the old. No old person on Medicare needs to walk around on a joint needing replacement for many months or wait for an MRI (all while additional damage can be occurring due to a delay).

Great comment and great points made!!!

 

[Sweden]

Yeah- you need a cardiac stent, pacemaker, and ICD. It’s gonna be really cheap to get that implanted, the surgical prep team and cath lab space, and devices procured.

Just like all those other places where people pay out of pocket.

As it happens the mother of our friend and neighbour recently had exactly these procedures This being Sweden she paid not a Krona out of pocket..

Introducing a real health care system in the US would be slow and difficult I suppose. But there was once a US 'Can Do' culture: whatever happened to it?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

No, it's possible. It's just not going to be what you think/hope/wish it will be.

I laid out the argument in simple terms, feel free to attack it.

Very simple terms. Simple to a fault, one might say. Downright simplistic even.

Your chicken little doomsaying is completely divorced from reality. Universal healthcare didn’t bankrupt the entire rest of the civilized world. It won’t bankrupt the richest country on earth.