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Affirmative Action

Claiminglight

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You know what really pisses me off? This reverse-racism bullcrap that they pull at every bank and school in America! Who gives a crap where someone grew up, or how oppressed they were in High School? Should circumstance play a role?

Well- if you would argue that circumstance SHOULD play a role- then I should be able to get a better loan rate. After all, I grew up in a black family.

Heh. NOPE! Nobody gives a crap where I grew up. It'd be different if I was a black man who was raised in a white family, however. I'd qualify for the 'minority only' ticket.

We'll never get over this stigma of racisim in this fashion.

Is anybody here FOR affirmative action?
 
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Claiminglight said:
You know what really pisses me off? This reverse-racism bullcrap that they pull at every bank and school in America! Who gives a crap where someone grew up, or how oppressed they were in High School? Should circumstance play a role?

Well- if you would argue that circumstance SHOULD play a role- then I should be able to get a better loan rate. After all, I grew up in a black family.

Heh. NOPE! Nobody gives a crap where I grew up. It'd be different if I was a black man who was raised in a white family, however. I'd qualify for the 'minority only' ticket.

We'll never get over this stigma of racisim in this fashion.

Is anybody here FOR affirmative action?
You were raised by negroes? My condolences to you.
 

Kandahar

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Agreed, Claiminglight. If circumstance is to play any role at all, it should be based on actual life circumstances rather than the color of one's skin, which is clearly illegal according to the 14th amendment of the Constitution.
 

clone

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im a muslim, a pakistani, a minority, and yet affirmitive action doesnt count for me. its only for blacks and hispanics. and i can gurantee that my friends that are pakistani are so much smarter than any black or hispanic that got into a good college because of affirmitive action.

affirmitve action is unfair, its making getting college harder for people that actually deserve it, for people that actually have a future.

sorry for any racism, but its true.
 

t125eagle

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clone, i agree in that it hurts those who may be smarter than the african american that gets the free ride. i think college application should be soley based on academic achievment, not on the color of a person's skin.
 

TwoPops4Sure

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I'm certainly for affirmative action and can say that if there are as many instances of "reverse discrimination" as I typically see reported in these forums, I'd like to know why is it that more minorities are not in positions of responsibility. Most people who disdain affirmative action assert that it comes with a quota system attached. I am in the high tech industry, and I can assure you that if there were anything like what many of the opponents of affirmative action report, that the results just aren't that evident.

To my Indian friend on this thread...I would say that H1B visas that allow you and many of your pals access to our job market at a time when American citizens go unemployed is all the affirmative action that I believe you're entitled to.

And finally to whites who oppose affirmative action, a concept which clearly they don't understand, you have been the benefactors of affirmative action for whites in this country since its' founding. All men were not created equal, a fact which is painfully illustrated by the necessity of the 14th Amendment and the plethora of legislation since then to affirm the rights of black people, many of whom watched your ancestors get off the boat at Ellis Island. From time many of these European immigrants stepped off the boat in this country, they were afforded more rights than blacks who had been here centuries befor them.

For years chronyism, nepotism and even today blatant exclusion have been practiced in this so called meritocracy, and yet none of you had a serious complaint until the black man finally got into the mix. When that unqualified white guy gets the job or promo you seem to suck that up and say, oh well, that's how the game is played. I wonder why?

2pops..
 

Windy

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galenrox said:
all of these posts have a lot of merit, except for the nazi's, obviously.

Basing these sorts of things off of race is just ignorant. Although blacks tend to need the help more, this isn't because they're black. There are a lot of factors, but a large one is that in poor neighborhoods the public schools suck, and thus expecting the same academic achievment from someone who's had a crappy high school education that you expect out of someone who went to a great high school is just outright unfair.
There are two logical solutions:
1) Affirmative action, but based on economic status, not race
2) Create a more equitable public education system, like have a standardized amount of funding, and require donations to an individual school be shared among all schools in the state, or potentially in the country.
Neither idea's perfect, but I prefer the later of the two.

Great ideas..Respect
 

craigfarmer

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Claiminglight said:
You know what really pisses me off? This reverse-racism bullcrap that they pull at every bank and school in America! Who gives a crap where someone grew up, or how oppressed they were in High School? Should circumstance play a role?

Well- if you would argue that circumstance SHOULD play a role- then I should be able to get a better loan rate. After all, I grew up in a black family.

Heh. NOPE! Nobody gives a crap where I grew up. It'd be different if I was a black man who was raised in a white family, however. I'd qualify for the 'minority only' ticket.

We'll never get over this stigma of racisim in this fashion.

Is anybody here FOR affirmative action?





I am 100% for Affirmative Action. Mostly for 1 (one) reason. It is in the best interest of the United States. It is in the best interest of all Americans.

First of all, Affirmative Action is the process of using race as one of many factors to determine qualifications for a position. In A.A. it is a positive. (In RACIAL PROFILING it is a negative. I support both because we as a people all benefit):

The premise of America is that everyone should be able to reach their God-given ability. Given the realities of racial, economic, social, geographic barriers,etc. that simply is not possible without active intervention on the part of leaders in govt., business, education etc.

Were we not to take conscious steps at redress, our own inclinations, sensibilities, and preferences would continue to lead us to value people who we are comfortable with.

With this, we have millions of people who for various reasons not of their own making, can never reach their potential.


This is especially true based on race, but not exclusively of race.


If we leave this reality as it is, then we as a country lose out on the potential of millions of people to contribute to disease cures, inventions, economic productivity, leadership ability, etc.

They will necessarily underperform.

This is not simply about race or gender, but it includes them.

Imagine all of the great Presidents that could have come from Utah, West Virginia, Hawaii, North Dakota, or Rhodes Island? But a person from one of these states has almost no chance. No matter how smart, capable, etc. They lose out as an individual, but we lose out as a nation. Generally to be a viable contender, you have to have a national base, which generally starts with a large state base. Bill Clinton proves the exception.

Similarly the high poverty rate, and other negative traits associated with various minority populations doom millions of INDIVIDUALS to a life that doesn't reach potential. Sure, a few will overcome such circumstances, but most won't. In this case, these groups COST society, breed contempt, rather than BENEFITTING society, and engendering warmth and wealth.

Think of all the ability that is being used in gangs, lost in abortion clinics, wasted in dead-end jobs. Had they had a good 2 parent family, a good school, a good neighborhood, they would be extremely more productive.
There are many answers, and one is to offer opportunity whenever they are qualified. This helps break bad cycles, and mentalities. It offers hope, and defines us as a nation. Coupled with better education, strict law enforcement, high standards, we can truly transform America even more.

Sports has become a model for A.A. Every sport where African Americans . as a group want to compete in: baseball, football, basketball, they dominate as a percentage of the sport compared to the general population. It is because of true equal opportunity. Were the effort used to give college scholarships to athletes expanded to medicine, business, etc. with equal fervor, our nation would benefit. This has been done for many years somewhat, and we now see the benefits somewhat. We are getting to a point where different people can be expected to be found almost everywhere.

For those who are injured in a specific sense by losing out to a preferred group, this is the cost of a truly free society. We all will benefit with a higher standard of living when all people are given a fair chance. The people left behind have children who start behind.

This chance shouldn't be limited to race, it should include any legitimate category that is discriminated against in our marketplace.

If there's an opening for a collegel president's job, and it's never been held by an Asian-American woman, and the qualified group includes an Asian-American woman, she should be given a preference because all other things being equal, it will validate the opportunity in the U.S. Send images in the state, country, and world that if you are an Asian girl, you can reach your potential here. Here the concept of diversity is divorced from need or historical oppression.

If a white person from Idaho is qualified to be NYC police commissioner, and all other things are equal she/he should get the job over another NYC cop, to show that NY is open to all-comers, and truly wants the best.


Rep. Nadler from New York, if he is qualified should be offered a job due to his large size.

Charles Krauthammer of FOX should be offered a job because of his disability.

ARNOLD in California should be offered a job because of his immigrant background.

A white person who grew up with black people should be offered a preference to be a provost at a school in an all-white neighborhood.


If we start with the premise that we the people through our government want everyone to have an equal start, and then merit should be determinative, we have to take action to make that possible.

These preferences will be necessary until our society becomes a true meritocracy.

My test for this would be for random people when asked to name who THEY think are the 10 most powerful people, and we compile a list collectively as a country, the list of top 100 people selected has no racial, gender, geographic, socio-economic bias, but instead represents that we all now have a fair shot to enjoy the best country ever created, the U.S.A.

Craig Farmer
making the word "liberal" safe again!
 

craigfarmer

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I deal in "broad strokes" and the BIG picture.

The U.S. is the greatest country ever because of our free markets, strong rule of law, diversity, strength,flexibilty, etc.

Individual cases or personal stories really aren't where A.A. will rise or fall.

Individuals should be treated equally wherever possible, and certainly a restaurant job should not have any racial quotas attached to it. If true, and legal, it shouldn't be, and I would doubt very many people would defend that.

Yet...

positions of true power:

bank presidents, college professors, government officials, contractors, military officers, educational opportunities, etc.

have a valuable public component that should not only redress racial, gender, but other inequities that harm our great land. Also, the nature of "qualified" is very subjective and needs to be relevant to the position.

We have to expand our views, and not become bogged down on individual grievances.

The best example I've given are:

what about the great politicians from North Dakota or Idaho; they have nearly 0% chance of being President. It's possible but they have to overcome numerous obstacles. The end result is that we as a country lose out on their potential as do they.

Proper Affirmative Action programs can be done where there isn't any individualized pain to speak of.

Based on our history race and gender need to be a part of A.A. but so should physical appearance, disability, geography, political ideology, etc. It's a delicate balance that smart Americans can and are handling quiite well.

President Bush has done it well for 5 years.

For a republican.

Craig Farmer
making the word "liberal" safe again!
 
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