Advice to my conservative Freinds

[trfjr]

Advice to my Conservative Freinds

tone down your social conservatism it is making you lose races keep the focus on fiscal conservatism and smaller government
You have seen this over and over again. A lot of voters especially women are one issue voters. Yes they are ignorant being so they rather live in a broken down third word nation then give up the abortion on demand. The same goes for gay marriage. They rather be allowed to marry and live under a dictator then not be allowed to

Im not asking you to agree with either just accept the fact to win elections you will need to put it on the back burner. You need to get rid of the anti abortion anti gay marriage platform. Not saying to advocate for either but remove it from the discussion. Say you are pro life but will uphold the current laws on the matter, and let the gays marry. It will do less harm to the nation then the constant big government tax and spend democrats will do when they keep winning election after election

Not to long ago I considered my self a conservative and still am in ways just a social moderate. I to believe abortion is wrong but realized there is more important battles to win then abortion. As a libertarian I feel government should get out of the business of marriage all together gay or straight, but im also a realist and that will not happen. So let the gays marry what's the big deal it wont change anything if they do. We are seeing them live together and raising children already. So what is a dam title going to do? Nothing, they are still going to act married with or with out the title.

If conservatives have to lie on some issues then lie dammit. That is how democrats win they lie all the time on fiscal issues saying they are for smaller government and fiscal responsibility, and the first thing they do when they get into office is the opposite of both. If it will take a few lies on social issue to win then lie dammit.

this is what has hurt the Tea Party. When they fist organized it was all about fiscal issues and smaller government a winning message by the vast majority of America, but they allowed them selves to get high jacked by the religious right, and their social conservatism platform came with it and now they are losing support and getting beat up on those very issues. Preaching is done in the church if you want to change the nation morals do so in the church recruit people to attend church, but keep it out of the political campaign

this is why I left the republican party and became a libertarian. Yes I will still defend republicans, because i don't see a libertarian candidate winning a major election any time soon unless the get rid of some of their nuts that want to legalize all drugs and their extreme isolationist. I see the republican party the fiscal conservatism branch of the party are the only ones in any position to save us from the downward spiral of this nation and they are screwing it up by letting them selves get hamstringed by social issues. allowing abortion laws to stay the same and allowing gays to marry isn't going to be the down fall of this great nation the big government tax and spend liberals will be

Pick you dam battles put your social conservatism away in a drawer some where and don't take it out until you win some elections gain enough power to be able to act on them. Fiscal conservatism and smaller government is the winning message take the others off the table

 

[Oftencold]

. . .
If conservatives have to lie on some issues then lie dammit.. . .

That's all I needed to reject your advice.

 

[WCH]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

Isn't that horse already out of the barn? The Left will use social conservatism against the Right no matter whether it's brought as an issue or not.

 

[trfjr]

That's all I needed to reject your advice.

does the means justify the end YES
would you rather not lie and watch the nation crumble around you?

 

[trfjr]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

Isn't that horse already out of the barn? The Left will use social conservatism against the Right no matter whether it's brought as an issue or not.

I haven't studied Christies record he calls him self a conservative not sure on his voting record to make that decision if he really is, but he was able to win by a mile and a blue state and it wasn't on the platform of social conservatism

 

[Woodman909]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

tone down your social conservatism it is making you lose races keep the focus on fiscal conservatism and smaller government
You have seen this over and over again. A lot of voters especially women are one issue voters. Yes they are ignorant being so they rather live in a broken down third word nation then give up the abortion on demand. The same goes for gay marriage. They rather be allowed to marry and live under a dictator then not be allowed to

Im not asking you to agree with either just accept the fact to win elections you will need to put it on the back burner. You need to get rid of the anti abortion anti gay marriage platform. Not saying to advocate for either but remove it from the discussion. Say you are pro life but will uphold the current laws on the matter, and let the gays marry. It will do less harm to the nation then the constant big government tax and spend democrats will do when they keep winning election after election

Not to long ago I considered my self a conservative and still am in ways just a social moderate. I to believe abortion is wrong but realized there is more important battles to win then abortion. As a libertarian I feel government should get out of the business of marriage all together gay or straight, but im also a realist and that will not happen. So let the gays marry what's the big deal it wont change anything if they do. We are seeing them live together and raising children already. So what is a dam title going to do? Nothing, they are still going to act married with or with out the title.

If conservatives have to lie on some issues then lie dammit. That is how democrats win the lie all the time on fiscal issues saying they are for smaller government and fiscal responsibility, and the first thing they do when they get into office is the opposite of both. If it will take a few lies on social issue to win then lie dammit.

this is what has hurt the Tea Party. When they fist organized it was all about fiscal issues and smaller government a winning message by the vast majority of America, but they allowed them selves to get high jacked by the religious right, and their social conservatism platform came with it and now they are losing support and getting beat up on those very issues. Preaching is done in the church if you want to change the nation morals do so in the church recruit people to attend church, but keep it out of the political campaign

this is why I left the republican party and became a libertarian. Yes I will still defend republicans because i don't see a libertarian candidate win a major election any time soon unless the get rid of some of their nuts that want to legalize all drugs and their extreme isolationist. I see the republican party the fiscal conservatism branch of the party are the only ones in any position to save us from the downward spiral of this nation and they are screwing it up by letting them selves get hamstringed by social issues. allowing abortion laws to stay the same and allowing gays to marry isn't going to be the down fall of this great nation the big government tax and spend liberals will be

Pick you dam battles put your social conservatism away in a drawer some where and don't take it out until you win some elections gain enough power to be able to act on them. Fiscal conservatism and smaller government is the winning message take the others off the table

A wonderfully crafted, well worded, intensely interesting pile of dung. It is not about winning races. It is about being true to your convictions. Liberals take whatever side they need to win. They garner their base and move to the center. Big Woop. All it does is uncover their deceptive mindset.

Todays republicans are sad examples of conservatives. They too, take positions to garner votes, to win elections. They give us little choose from what is different from the left. They should go away. We need the debate with conservatives who stand their ground and be WILLING to lose the election. Better to die in honor that win in shame.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

A wonderfully crafted, well worded, intensely interesting pile of dung. It is not about winning races. It is about being true to your convictions. Liberals take whatever side they need to win. They garner their base and move to the center. Big Woop. All it does is uncover their deceptive mindset.

Todays republicans are sad examples of conservatives. They too, take positions to garner votes, to win elections. They give us little choose from what is different from the left. They should go away. We need the debate with conservatives who stand their ground and be WILLING to lose the election. Better to die in honor that win in shame.

and how is that working for you? you cant govern if you cant get into office listen I am a firm believer with most of your social platform but I understand you have to win races you have to get into office to to pass legislation to make changes on the social issues you want changed

you rather see this country crumble around you then cool down on your hard nose stance on some social issues and it only makes me shake my heads in disbelief your letting your pig headed stubbornness keep you out of office there for letting the liberals take over that will ruin this country

 

[joG]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

tone down your social conservatism it is making you lose races keep the focus on fiscal conservatism and smaller government
You have seen this over and over again. A lot of voters especially women are one issue voters. Yes they are ignorant being so they rather live in a broken down third word nation then give up the abortion on demand. The same goes for gay marriage. They rather be allowed to marry and live under a dictator then not be allowed to

Im not asking you to agree with either just accept the fact to win elections you will need to put it on the back burner. You need to get rid of the anti abortion anti gay marriage platform. Not saying to advocate for either but remove it from the discussion. Say you are pro life but will uphold the current laws on the matter, and let the gays marry. It will do less harm to the nation then the constant big government tax and spend democrats will do when they keep winning election after election

Not to long ago I considered my self a conservative and still am in ways just a social moderate. I to believe abortion is wrong but realized there is more important battles to win then abortion. As a libertarian I feel government should get out of the business of marriage all together gay or straight, but im also a realist and that will not happen. So let the gays marry what's the big deal it wont change anything if they do. We are seeing them live together and raising children already. So what is a dam title going to do? Nothing, they are still going to act married with or with out the title.

If conservatives have to lie on some issues then lie dammit. That is how democrats win they lie all the time on fiscal issues saying they are for smaller government and fiscal responsibility, and the first thing they do when they get into office is the opposite of both. If it will take a few lies on social issue to win then lie dammit.

this is what has hurt the Tea Party. When they fist organized it was all about fiscal issues and smaller government a winning message by the vast majority of America, but they allowed them selves to get high jacked by the religious right, and their social conservatism platform came with it and now they are losing support and getting beat up on those very issues. Preaching is done in the church if you want to change the nation morals do so in the church recruit people to attend church, but keep it out of the political campaign

this is why I left the republican party and became a libertarian. Yes I will still defend republicans, because i don't see a libertarian candidate winning a major election any time soon unless the get rid of some of their nuts that want to legalize all drugs and their extreme isolationist. I see the republican party the fiscal conservatism branch of the party are the only ones in any position to save us from the downward spiral of this nation and they are screwing it up by letting them selves get hamstringed by social issues. allowing abortion laws to stay the same and allowing gays to marry isn't going to be the down fall of this great nation the big government tax and spend liberals will be

Pick you dam battles put your social conservatism away in a drawer some where and don't take it out until you win some elections gain enough power to be able to act on them. Fiscal conservatism and smaller government is the winning message take the others off the table

I have had this discussion a few times with political friends and, though I understand it, I am not morally enraged and see why it seems so convincing. I do, however, on a rational basis not believe it is the way to go. Lies tend to be found out and I have seen it happen too often to think it worth taking the chance. For if someone lies to you, you should never ever think of employing him and certainly you would not want to give him power over yourself. And that is exactly, what you do, when you vote someone into office.

 

[Woodman909]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

and how is that working for you? you cant govern if you cant get into office listen I am a firm believer with most of your social platform but I understand you have to win races you have to get into office to to pass legislation to make changes on the social issues you want changed

You are all about winning, I am about living according to my values and convictions. There is nothing I can do to prevent our current gaggle of liars to keep doing what they are doing to maintain their stay in office. Liberals do it too.. and they are far better at it. You should be proud.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

I have had this discussion a few times with political friends and, though I understand it, I am not morally enraged and see why it seems so convincing. I do, however, on a rational basis not believe it is the way to go. Lies tend to be found out and I have seen it happen too often to think it worth taking the chance. For if someone lies to you, you should never ever think of employing him and certainly you would not want to give him power over yourself. And that is exactly, what you do, when you vote someone into office.

be a realist didn't Obama get reelected under lies wasn't he able to get a major bill passed that liberals have been trying to pass for decades. lies have become an excepted norm in society not saying it is right. just saying it is the rules of the game

 

[joko104]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

It is religious rightwing social issues that is devastating Republicans in elections.

 

[WCH]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

I haven't studied Christies record he calls him self a conservative not sure on his voting record to make that decision if he really is, but he was able to win by a mile and a blue state and it wasn't on the platform of social conservatism

He a Centrist.

Other than that, his opinions are widely knoewn. He didn't need to bring them up in the election.

Chris Christie on the Issues

 

[trfjr]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

You are all about winning, I am about living according to my values and convictions. There is nothing I can do to prevent our current gaggle of liars to keep doing what they are doing to maintain their stay in office. Liberals do it too.. and they are far better at it. You should be proud.

because you can do **** if you don't win you cant make any changes for the better is you don't win so be pig headed and stubborn and watch the nation crumble around you have no future for your children, but hey you will still have your principals and with that and a dollar you can get a cup of coffee

 

[Cyrylek]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

tone down your social conservatism it is making you lose races keep the focus on fiscal conservatism and smaller government

You are assuming that there are a lot of people among "conservatives" who are actually both "socially conservative" and "fiscally conservative", and that they just need to shift emphasis to get moving on the "fiscal" side.

But I have friends in three states who are active in the tea party movement, and they all tell the same story: while libertarians and moderates attracted by the tea party platform are consistent in their economic market liberalism, many "conservatives" are extremely hostile to "fiscally conservative" ideas like reduction of military spending, free trade, even closing tax loopholes and downsizing corporate welfare. They are usually the first to either abandon the tea party organization and to attempt a takeover, with a non-tea party agenda.

For historical reasons, American "conservatives" do embrace capitalism - as they understand it - but this understanding is very un-libertarian. Just like the State is supposed to enforce their cultural standards - regarding gays, abortion, dope, and what-not - the State is supposed to be, eh, very frugal, when it comes to safety nets - because that is also a cultural standard: hard-working, clean-living people should not create a system of support for those they suspect of being not-so-hardworking and not-very-clean-living. It may sound, on the accounting side, like a case of fiscal conservatism, but it has different roots.

Of course, a lot of people call themselves "conservative" (or "liberal", "libertarian") and mean different things. But there's definitely a group that can be defined as the Social Conservatives, and you may be a bit late with this advice: They are already "lying, damn it" - about their fiscal conservatism and love of limited government.

When you look at prominent social conservatives who had a chance to actually offer their economic views over a decent stretch of time - say, Buchanan or Huckabee - isn't it striking how socialist they sound? Because that's what Social Conservatives essentially are: religious (or at least traditionalist) statists. It's just that their version of socialism is not spending a whole lot on the poor or on stuff like stem cell research.

 

[joG]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

be a realist didn't Obama get reelected under lies wasn't he able to get a major bill passed that liberals have been trying to pass for decades. lies have become an excepted norm in society not saying it is right. just saying it is the rules of the game

As I say, I understand all that. And yes, it is a real risk. But I think the other risk is greater.

 

[year2late]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

Isn't that horse already out of the barn? The Left will use social conservatism against the Right no matter whether it's brought as an issue or not.

But, it is frequently an issue.

Frankly, where the TEA party affiliates are concerned, I would think the social conservatism would just be out the door. Discuss realistic fiscally conservative issues and potential solutions and leave social crap out of it.

I will say from the outside looking in, one of the big failings when fiscal issues are discussed, it is all about bashing Obama. Got it, don't like Obama. But what are your REALISTIC solutions to complex problems. "Bash Obama" may help get you elected, but it will not help solve anything in office.

 

[vesper]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

and how is that working for you? you cant govern if you cant get into office listen I am a firm believer with most of your social platform but I understand you have to win races you have to get into office to to pass legislation to make changes on the social issues you want changed

One doesn't need to lie. They just need to stop allowing the other side to frame the argument and making social issues the litmus test. When it comes to social issues the Conservative's answer should be "these issues should not be the business of the Federal government but the responsibility of each state to decide." Because that is constitutionally correct!

There are a lot of people who call themselves conservatives and libertarians that have a love affair with big government in the Republican party and are the biggest hypocrites of all. Either they stop acting like Democrat-lites or find a new home across the aisle.

 

[WCH]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

But, it is frequently an issue.

Frankly, where the TEA party affiliates are concerned, I would think the social conservatism would just be out the door. Discuss realistic fiscally conservative issues and potential solutions and leave social crap out of it.

I will say from the outside looking in, one of the big failings when fiscal issues are discussed, it is all about bashing Obama. Got it, don't like Obama. But what are your REALISTIC solutions to complex problems. "Bash Obama" may help get you elected, but it will not help solve anything in office.

You're right about that. The TP has been hijacked and it's goal obscured by the parties you mention. However, real Conservatives can't step away from their core principles and remain true to themselves.

IOWs I won't vote for Chris Christi.

 

[Cyrylek]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

Frankly, where the TEA party affiliates are concerned, I would think the social conservatism would just be out the door. Discuss realistic fiscally conservative issues and potential solutions and leave social crap out of it.

I will say from the outside looking in, one of the big failings when fiscal issues are discussed, it is all about bashing Obama. Got it, don't like Obama. But what are your REALISTIC solutions to complex problems. "Bash Obama" may help get you elected, but it will not help solve anything in office.

My friends the tea partiers in WA and MA (and later in NJ) described to me, back in 2009, the nascent local organizations that had a firm taboo on talking about social issues or immigration. After all, the whole idea was to make it possible for libertarians, moderates and conservatives to work together. The group in Massachusetts even had a list of words never to be used. ("Obama" was one of them).

As you know the movement has a modular, decentralized structure, and some tea parties (especially those networked via Freedomworks and other meta-libertarian umbrella groups) stick to the original rules, while others - don't. Largely, however, it appears to me that most of the socially conservative, anti-immigrant and otherwise divisive rhetoric is coming not from any actual tea parties, but rather from career politicians who declared themselves "Tea Party" out of sudden, when it became useful.

I mean, what tea party Michelle Bachmann had ever organized or even attended as a member? She was sitting there in Congress since 2007 , helping Bush to run record deficits, and before that in the MN legislature, and did absolutely nothing "tea-party-like". While being pretty loud on "social issues".

 

[Carleen]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

I haven't studied Christies record he calls him self a conservative not sure on his voting record to make that decision if he really is, but he was able to win by a mile and a blue state and it wasn't on the platform of social conservatism

Exactly. He keeps his opinions about abortion and gay rights out of his conversation although he is strongly opposed. I also think he was smart holding two elections although I thought spending the money was not justified, but he was afraid that Cory Booker might have beat him. He didn't want to take the chance. If he decides to run for pres in 2016 it will be interesting to see how he fares.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

Isn't that horse already out of the barn? The Left will use social conservatism against the Right no matter whether it's brought as an issue or not.

It's not just the left, this last presidential election in the GOP primaries the right ate themselves alive with trying to prove who was more "social conservative". The right were the ones who brought it up for themselves.

 

[imagep]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

It is religious rightwing social issues that is devastating Republicans in elections.

That and complaining about the 47% who don't pay enough in taxes.

Republicans would be much better off complaining that the 53% pay too much, than to alienate 47% of their potential voters.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

That and complaining about the 47% who don't pay enough in taxes.

The really sad part about that comment that Romney made was he didn't realize that part of those 47% are elederly and service members supplimenting their income. That comment really hurt him I believe.

 

[imagep]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

The really sad part about that comment that Romney made was he didn't realize that part of those 47% are elederly and service members supplimenting their income. That comment really hurt him I believe.

They are also high school and college students working part time jobs but filing their own income taxes. Also families that have workers who work very hard at undesireable but low paying jobs, and families that have had some unemployment during the course of any particular year.

As our society continues to age, the percent not paying income taxes will continue to climb, regardless of what party is in power. It's a demographic reality.

 

[jonny5]

Re: Advice to my Conservative Freinds

tone down your social conservatism it is making you lose races keep the focus on fiscal conservatism and smaller government
You have seen this over and over again. A lot of voters especially women are one issue voters. Yes they are ignorant being so they rather live in a broken down third word nation then give up the abortion on demand. The same goes for gay marriage. They rather be allowed to marry and live under a dictator then not be allowed to

tl:dr version (and im not sure if you were being sarcastic) - if you want to win elections, stop having principles. That attitude is why I left the Republican party.