Adam, Eve, and a Tree [W:86]

[tosca1]

If the child chooses not to smoke, the parent DIDN't know what they would do. God supposedly does. If God knows what you will do, all you have is the illusion of choice. you can only choose what has been set down that you will do.

Still, that the parent didn't know, does not eliminate the choices that the son has.

No....it's not an illusion. It would've been an illusion if God "programmed" you into choosing what choice He wanted you to make. Just knowing what you'd choose though, isn't.

 

[Fletch]

In a sense that was to their advantage...they were created perfect, without sin...and no pre-conceived notions or ideas...all they had to do is obey the One who created them...

But the question is why would they obey God? Adam and Eve, prior to eating the fruit, lacked any knowledge of good and evil. So in there eyes, God was not good, nor was he bad. He just was. The serpent comes along and tells them to do what God told them not to do. Upon what basis would they choose the word of one over the other? There was no right or wrong in their minds, Their choice was not between good and evil but between this guy or that guy. So in the absence of good and evil they acted as all non reasoning creatures act--upon their own inclinations and desires. The truth is, Adam and Eve did not sin since sin was and is impossible for any creature lacking the knowledge of good and evil. Only after they ate the fruit was sin possible.

 

[Fletch]

If the child chooses not to smoke, the parent DIDN't know what they would do. God supposedly does. If God knows what you will do, all you have is the illusion of choice. you can only choose what has been set down that you will do.

Think of life as a movie, say Dirty Harry. I know how the movie ends and in fact, I can recite many of the lines. But my knowledge of what the actors say and do is not the CAUSE and does not mean the actors lacked a will of their own. God knows what you will do not because He is forcing your actions, but because he has seen the movie.

 

[Daisy]

I just can't imagine the God I worship, a God of mercy and love, being so cruel as to literally torture someone forever in a burning fire...first of all my power of reason tells me if I throw something, anything into a hot fire, it will eventually burn up...turn to ashes and there will be nothing left...

There a several accounts in the Hebrew Scriptures about the pagan nations sacrificing their children in fire to the god Molech...even the Canaanites and apostate Israelites sacrificed their children...Deut. 12:31; Psalm 106:37, 38...King Ahaz of Judah “proceeded to burn up his sons' in the fire.” ...2 Chronicles 28:3...the parallel passage, at 2 Kings 16:3, reads “Even his own son he made pass through the fire”... both in the kingdom of Judah and in the ten-tribe kingdom passed their offspring through the fire. 2 Kings 17:17, 18; Ezekiel 23:4, 36-39...

God's reaction to such a detestable thing..."They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’" Jeremiah 7:31

And as I said earlier... a spirit creature cannot be burned because they are not of flesh and blood...

 

[Tanngrisnir]

THIS is how you debate? Oy.

No, it's not. What an odd question.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

I thought you were going to explain why the scriptures you posted prove that free will doesn't exist? Where is that post?

The scriptures I cited do that for me. Did you fail to read them?

 

[Tanngrisnir]

I'll take a shot...

First, you have to use your power of reason and consider what else the Bible says on the subject, like some of the Scriptures which have already been cited to you, like Eccl 9:11 and the account of Adam and Eve, where they obviously were given that right to exercise their free will...

Understanding your reference of Eccl, 3:1-15...Solomon was not saying that births and deaths are predestined...his point is that births and deaths, like many things in life, come in endless cycles...life will have its ups and downs....“There is . . . a time to weep and a time to laugh,” says Solomon...such repeated patterns and unforeseen calamities, Solomon shows, are common to life, to “every affair under the heavens.” Ecclesiastes 3:1-8; 9:11, 12...his conclusion is not to get so swept up in our daily affairs that we overlook our Creator...

Matthew 10:29... Jesus’ point....if Jehovah places such value on a single sparrow, of how much greater worth is a human...as Jesus explained, Jehovah knows every detail about us...

Here is another way to think about that scripture...just think about the hope of the resurrection...how intimately Jehovah must know us in order to re-create us...He values us so much that he remembers every detail, including our genetic code and all our years of memories and experiences...also in his teaching, Jesus often used contrasts, reasoning from the lesser to the greater... the point of Jesus’ words about the sparrows becomes clear...if God cares for these tiny birds, how much more will he care for humans who love and worship him...the fact that He knows when a sparrow falls is hardly in support of proving He causes them to fall...He is simply aware of all his creation and He cares...

Thanks for the detailed response. Sorry I was away and couldn't answer immediately.

There is also the matter of Ephesians 1:11

1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

IOW, everything happens according to the plan of this omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being. There's just no other way that I can see how that reads.

And there's also Dan. 4:35, "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth. And no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’"

Acts 2:23, "This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

Further in Acts (17:26) there is: "and He [God] made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation.

Seems very clear to me that nothing happens that is not of this god's will.

It is, after all and again, omniscient, knowing all in advance.

 

[Daisy]

But the question is why would they obey God? Adam and Eve, prior to eating the fruit, lacked any knowledge of good and evil. So in there eyes, God was not good, nor was he bad. He just was. The serpent comes along and tells them to do what God told them not to do. Upon what basis would they choose the word of one over the other? There was no right or wrong in their minds, Their choice was not between good and evil but between this guy or that guy. So in the absence of good and evil they acted as all non reasoning creatures act--upon their own inclinations and desires. The truth is, Adam and Eve did not sin since sin was and is impossible for any creature lacking the knowledge of good and evil. Only after they ate the fruit was sin possible.

We have no way of knowing just how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they disobeyed...they must have communicated with God long enough to know who He was...HE was their Creator, the one who made them and gave them all they knew so they knew Him well enough to know it was to their advantage to follow His instructions when He gave them...only ONE thing they were told NOT to do...they did know right from wrong in the sense that God told them what NOT to do and they did it anyway...the sin was disobedience itself...

 

[Daisy]

Ephesians 1:11...this is how my translation reads..".with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs, having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will"...

Cross reference for that scripture...Romans 8:17..."If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer+ together that we may also be glorified together."

And this one...Ephesians 3:5,6..".In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that people of the nations should, in union with Christ Jesus and through the good news, be joint heirs and fellow members of the body+ and partakers with us of the promise."

All three of these scriptures are speaking of the 144,000...Revelation 7:4; 14:1... who will reign in heaven with Christ...yes, they are chosen by God for that purpose, that is not to say they were predestined for that assignment...their actions determine that...

 

[Daisy]

Acts 2:2,3...I think it's obvious Christ's coming to earth was planned out beforehand, through prophecy...whether Jesus followed through and remained faithful or not, that was up to him...forced obedience means nothing...obedience out of love means everything...

Acts 17:26...does God give direction? Yes Does everyone follow that direction? No...they have a choice whether to follow or not...that is obvious by the world we live in today...

 

[Fletch]

We have no way of knowing just how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they disobeyed...they must have communicated with God long enough to know who He was...HE was their Creator, the one who made them and gave them all they knew so they knew Him well enough to know it was to their advantage to follow His instructions when He gave them...only ONE thing they were told NOT to do...they did know right from wrong in the sense that God told them what NOT to do and they did it anyway...the sin was disobedience itself...

But without knowledge of good and evil: that an action can be right or wrong, obedience was not a virtue nor disobedience a vice. When confronted by the serpent, for Adam and Eve to follow what God told them would require them to essentially say " no, serpent, we cannot disobey God because that would be wrong." The problem is, there was no "wrong" in their minds. The truth is, Adam was confronted with a choice that he was unequipped to make. You are imputing your knowledge and understanding onto Adam and that is wrong. You have to view Adam as a child or a dog, not a man.

 

[Daisy]

But without knowledge of good and evil: that an action can be right or wrong, obedience was not a virtue nor disobedience a vice. When confronted by the serpent, for Adam and Eve to follow what God told them would require them to essentially say " no, serpent, we cannot disobey God because that would be wrong." The problem is, there was no "wrong" in their minds. The truth is, Adam was confronted with a choice that he was unequipped to make. You are imputing your knowledge and understanding onto Adam and that is wrong. You have to view Adam as a child or a dog, not a man.

God told them it was wrong and He told them what would happen if they did...they would die...they were not children...they could have been with God 2 or 3 hundred years before they disobeyed...long enough to know better...you are imputing your imperfect thinking on a perfect human pair...

 

[tosca1]

But the question is why would they obey God? Adam and Eve, prior to eating the fruit, lacked any knowledge of good and evil. So in there eyes, God was not good, nor was he bad. He just was. The serpent comes along and tells them to do what God told them not to do. Upon what basis would they choose the word of one over the other? There was no right or wrong in their minds, Their choice was not between good and evil but between this guy or that guy. So in the absence of good and evil they acted as all non reasoning creatures act--upon their own inclinations and desires. The truth is, Adam and Eve did not sin since sin was and is impossible for any creature lacking the knowledge of good and evil. Only after they ate the fruit was sin possible.

Adam must know that he was created by God. He must know of the Authority of God, after all, it was also God who put him in the garden.

Genesis2
8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.


And was also instructed to tend and keep it.

Genesis 2
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.


Therefore, it's safe to assume that the Authority of God, is established.




God told Adam the consequence of eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

Genesis 2
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”


And this information was also relayed to Eve.


Genesis 3
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”



Adam and Eve have no knowledge of good and evil.....but they instinctively knew that God's instructions is to be followed. Wasn't Adam tending and keeping the garden, as instructed?





Eve was tricked by the serpent.

Genesis 3
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”




They're innocent like children. The choice wasn't choosing between good and evil.

It was choosing whether to follow God's instructions or not (despite being told of the consequence of eating from that forbidden tree). To choose whether to listen to the serpent, or obey and stick to God's instructions.

 

[Logicman]

That is the Christian concept. However, the Jewish faith does not have the concept of 'salvation' as the Christians view it in it. That is not a needed idea.

Wrong again. Like the Torah and Jesus said in Matthew 22:

"But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you (in Exodus 3:6), ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

 

[Manc Skipper]

Think of life as a movie, say Dirty Harry. I know how the movie ends and in fact, I can recite many of the lines. But my knowledge of what the actors say and do is not the CAUSE and does not mean the actors lacked a will of their own. God knows what you will do not because He is forcing your actions, but because he has seen the movie.

Like an actor in gods movie, you follow the script, unknowing, believing you are ad-libbing it all.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

God told them it was wrong and He told them what would happen if they did...they would die...they were not children...they could have been with God 2 or 3 hundred years before they disobeyed...long enough to know better...you are imputing your imperfect thinking on a perfect human pair...

That they didn't immediately die has always been interesting to me. They lived quite a long time after eating the forbidden fruit.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Genesis 2:17).

Eve also understood this warning as she repeated it to Satan.

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die (Genesis 3:3).

 

[Angel]

It is very far from being dizzying.

Vertiginous then.

 

[Fletch]

God told them it was wrong and He told them what would happen if they did...they would die...they were not children...they could have been with God 2 or 3 hundred years before they disobeyed...long enough to know better...you are imputing your imperfect thinking on a perfect human pair...

But they weren't perfect except in perhaps their innocence. By eating the fruit they became something they were not before. "Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil." They became human.

 

[tosca1]

God told them it was wrong and He told them what would happen if they did...they would die...they were not children...they could have been with God 2 or 3 hundred years before they disobeyed...long enough to know better...you are imputing your imperfect thinking on a perfect human pair...

I have to agree with Fletch that Adam and Eve were innocent like children. (see my explanation above)
Prior to the eating from the tree of knowledge, they wouldn't know what good and evil is.

It was AFTER they'd eaten that they knew of right and wrong.

Genesis 3
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.


They felt guilt and shame. Thus, they hid from God, and even covered themselves (they were naked).



Genesis 3

8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife
hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

 

[Fletch]

Like an actor in gods movie, you follow the script, unknowing, believing you are ad-libbing it all.

No, my knowing that Harry will say "Did I fire six shots or only 5?" does not mean I wrote the script. I know because I have seen the movie. The same is true here. God knows how you will respond, not because he is typing for you, but from his eternal perspective, it has happened already.

 

[Fletch]

They're innocent like children. The choice wasn't choosing between good and evil.

It was choosing whether to follow God's instructions or not (despite being told of the consequence of eating from that forbidden tree). To choose whether to listen to the serpent, or obey and stick to God's instructions.

Right. That was their choice. But they were woefully ill equipped to make a proper choice. Yes, they knew that God didn't want them to do it, but they had no real understanding of what God was. They knew the guy who had been nice to them didn't want them to do it, but along comes a friendly snake who tells them its ok. What are they to do? Upon what do they base their decision? If you think of them as children then follow along with this example. You have two children and you tell them not to play with matches. Turn them over to me for 5 minutes and I bet I can get them to strike a match. Does that make them evil or disobedient? No. What it says is that you were foolish to turn your children over to a person with bad intentions. Something tells me God had an idea that the snake was up to no good, yet he left his children alone with it anyway. Who is it that really made the bad choice in the Garden then?

 

[Daisy]

That they didn't immediately die has always been interesting to me. They lived quite a long time after eating the forbidden fruit.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Genesis 2:17).

Eve also understood this warning as she repeated it to Satan.

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die (Genesis 3:3).

Consider this...the Hebrew word translated “day” can mean various lengths of time, not just a 24-hour period...when summarizing God’s creative work, Moses refers to all six creative days as one day...Genesis 2:4...on the first creative day, “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night”...Genesis 1:5...only a portion of a 24-hour period is defined by the term “day”...there is no basis in Scripture for stating that each creative day was 24 hours long....

Though Adam and Eve did not die physically during that 24-hour day they died in a spiritual sense...irremediably alienated from the Source of life, they began a decline into death immediately...

Also, considering time in the way God observes time, Peter said in 2 Peter 2:8...However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."

With that in mind, Adam lived to be 930 years old...70 years short of 1,000 years...we don't know how old Eve was when she died...her record stops with the birth of Seth...we do know that no man has lived to be 1,000 years old...in that sense also, Adam died within a day, by Jehovah's standards...

 

[sailA]

There's no such thing as time in the Kingdom of Heaven. All time is contained in a bubble that God holds in his hand,. He can see the beginning and the end simultaneously

 

[<alt>doxygen]

No, my knowing that Harry will say "Did I fire six shots or only 5?" does not mean I wrote the script. I know because I have seen the movie. The same is true here. God knows how you will respond, not because he is typing for you, but from his eternal perspective, it has happened already.

Why did God set in motion all of the pain and suffering mankind has already endured, let alone will endure going forward? I would think an omnipotent being could do much better than this. To be honest, we humans suck bigly.

 

[tosca1]

But they weren't perfect except in perhaps their innocence. By eating the fruit they became something they were not before. "Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil." They became human.

They were human even before eating. Adam was made as a man.



Here's the verse:

Genesis 3
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


God made sure they wouldn't eat from the tree of life - which would've made them immortal like God - thus, they were shut out from Eden.