Acars confirmed - 9/11 aircraft airborne long after crash[W:330] (1 Viewer)

[PilotsForTruth]

ACARS CONFIRMED - 9/11 AIRCRAFT AIRBORNE LONG AFTER CRASH
UNITED 175 IN THE VICINITY OF HARRISBURG AND PITTSBURGH, PA

(PilotsFor911Truth.org) - Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) is a device used to send messages to and from an aircraft. Very similar to text messages and email we use today, Air Traffic Control, the airline itself, and other airplanes can communicate with each other via this "texting" system. ACARS was developed in 1978 and is still used today. Similar to cell phone networks, the ACARS network has remote ground stations installed around the world to route messages from ATC, the airline, etc, to the aircraft depending on it's location and vice versa. ACARS Messages have been provided through the Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) which demonstrate that the aircraft received messages through ground stations located in Harrisburg, PA, and then later routed through a ground station in Pittsburgh, 20 minutes after the aircraft allegedly impacted the South Tower in New York. How can messages be routed through such remote locations if the aircraft was in NY, not to mention how can messages be routed to an aircraft which allegedly crashed 20 minutes earlier? Pilots For 9/11 Truth have briefly touched on this subject in 9/11: Intercepted through the excellent research of "Woody Box", who initially discovered such alarming information in the released FOIA documents(1). We now have further information which confirms the aircraft was not in the vicinity of New York City when the attacks occurred.​

Click for full article - ACARS CONFIRMED - 9/11 AIRCRAFT AIRBORNE LONG AFTER CRASH

 

[mike2810]

You have anything new? This has been discussed to the end.

 

[ozeco41]

Are you claiming something? If not why the post? If you are you seem to have forgotten to say what it is.

 

[PilotsForTruth]

IT IS CONCLUSIVE - 9/11 AIRCRAFT AIRBORNE WELL AFTER CRASH
UNITED 93 IN THE VICINITY OF FORT WAYNE, INDIANA AND CHAMPAIGN, ILLINOIS AT TIME OF SHANKSVILLE ALLEGED CRASH

(PilotsFor911Truth.org) - More information has surfaced which conclusively demonstrates the aircraft reportedly used on 9/11, were airborne well after their alleged crashes. This article supplements our last, "ACARS CONFIRMED - 9/11 AIRCRAFT AIRBORNE LONG AFTER CRASH" in which the ACARS system is explained as well as how to determine if a message were received by the aircraft, along with how ground stations are selected through Flight Tracking Protocol based on messages routed to United 175, N612UA. We now have further evidence which places United 93, N591UA, in the vicinity of Champaign, IL, 500+ miles away from the alleged crash site in Shanksville, PA. This information is further corroborated by a (now former) United Airlines Manager of Flight Dispatch Michael J. Winter.

On January 28, 2002, Mr. Winter gave an interview to the FBI at United Headquarters near Chicago, IL(1). During this interview, Mr. Winter reviewed a list of ACARS messages explaining the contents and which messages were received or rejected. The messages provided below are the most significant and fatal to what we have been told by the 9/11 Commission. Two messages were routed through the Fort Wayne, Indiana remote ground stations (FWA), followed by two more messages which were routed through Champaign, IL (CMI).

The remote ground station used to route the message to the aircraft (FWA or CMI), the time and date in which the message is sent (eg. 111351, meaning the 11th of Sept, at 1351Z or 0951am Eastern), the flight number (UA93), and the tail number of the airplane in which the message is intended (N591UA), are all highlighted in red. The underlined date and time is when the message was received by the airplane. Although the first two appear to be identical, the message number denotes that they are in fact two separate messages, which is highlighted in blue. The messages are as follows -



DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111351/ED
AGM
AN N591UA/GL FWA
- UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
LAND ASP AT NEAREST --NEAREST AIRPORT.ASP .ASP ON GROND.ANYWERE.
CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111351 108575 0669



DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111351/ED
AGM
AN N591UA/GL FWA
- UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
LAND ASP AT NEAREST --NEAREST AIRPORT.ASP .ASP ON GROND.ANYWERE.
CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111351 108575 0676


DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111410/ED
CMD
AN N591UA/GL CMI
- QUCHIAKUA 1UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
DO NOT DIVERT TO DC AREA
CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111410 108575 0706


DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111410/ED
CMD
AN N591UA/GL CMI
- QUCHIAKUA 1UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
DO NOT DIVERT TO DC AREA
CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111411 108575 0707

​

Click for full article - IT IS CONCLUSIVE - 9/11 AIRCRAFT AIRBORNE WELL AFTER CRASH

 

[Thoreau72]

Are you claiming something? If not why the post? If you are you seem to have forgotten to say what it is.

Logic 101 Ozeco. If the airplane that supposedly crashed at Shanksville was still flying 30 minutes later in Illinois, how could it have crashed at the time reported? It is impossible.

Yet another fact that contradicts the official story. Another fact on the huge pile of circumstantial evidence that contradicts the official story.

 

[mike2810]

If the OP article is true,
Why would the govt. release the information unaltered?

 

[Thoreau72]

If the OP article is true,
Why would the govt. release the information unaltered?

An excellent question Mike, surely.

The answer is that the data regarding ACARS came from depositions of UAL and ARINC personnel related to the Moussaoui trial. Apparently it sat there for some years before private individuals began to analyze it. Probably the best explanation, including the testimony, can be found at Woody Box

You will have to go to October 25 of 2012 to find the analysis.

Like so many FEMA pictures that were released into the public sphere, the court records became public. The Genie was out of the bottle. That's why the federal judiciary has prevented public trials by the various family members, forcing them to settle out of court.

 

[mike2810]

From P4T
"An ACK or NAK should be present denoting received or failed, respectively, according to standard message formats. Unfortunately, these standard codes are not available in the above messages."

So why is this not present. What we have is well they are not available.. Why?

"However, according to a Memorandum For The Record(2) quoting United Dispatcher Ed Ballinger, the second time stamp on the bottom of the message, at United Airlines, is the "Technical Acknowledgement" from the airplane that the message has been received -."

Does this happen a great deal of the time with ACARS.

At this time I am doubt the conclusion the timestamp is the validation of the aircraft saying it got the message.

 

[505]

You have anything new? This has been discussed to the end.

Right? Welcome back to 2006 Mike.

 

[505]

Are you claiming something? If not why the post? If you are you seem to have forgotten to say what it is.

P4T traffic is down these days, so he's here to spam his links and try to bring in fresh (braindead) meat.

 

[PilotsForTruth]

P4T traffic is down these days, so he's here to spam his links and try to bring in fresh (braindead) meat.

If the people here are "braindead", why do you spend most of your time on this forum in this forum section? You like to hang around "braindead" people?

And once again, those who blindly support whatever the govt tells them, fail to actually look at the data...

Pilotsfor911truth.org Site Info

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I guess we now know why "505" is here. Seems he is trying to convince "braindead" people to not visit a website which is actually up in traffic.

 

[505]

If the people here are "braindead", why do you spend most of your time on this forum in this forum section? You like to hang around "braindead" people?

Ask any of your idiot supporters on here. I am a paid shill. DUH! I know you're new here, but **** man, I bet you've never been accused of being a quick learner.

 

[505]

And oh man, those numbers are just INCREDIBLE. I mean you FINALLY broke the 600 thousandth mark. Sure made me eat my words on that one. Up a whopping 6%, 20%, and 26%? WOW. That must mean you are up to what? Like 5 views a day. Nice work Robbie. I can make a website about minorities punching babies that would dwarf your traffic. eace

 

[PilotsForTruth]

From P4T
"An ACK or NAK should be present denoting received or failed, respectively, according to standard message formats. Unfortunately, these standard codes are not available in the above messages."

So why is this not present. What we have is well they are not available.. Why?

"However, according to a Memorandum For The Record(2) quoting United Dispatcher Ed Ballinger, the second time stamp on the bottom of the message, at United Airlines, is the "Technical Acknowledgement" from the airplane that the message has been received -."

Does this happen a great deal of the time with ACARS.

At this time I am doubt the conclusion the timestamp is the validation of the aircraft saying it got the message.

ACK/NAK is a standard format for ACARS. Each airline has their ACARS messages tailored for their specific needs. American ACARS format is a bit different than the United ACARS, both are not in standard format.

In order to find out if a message was received, you'd have to either be trained as a United Dispatcher, or speak to one. Both Ed Ballinger and Michael Winters (Manager of United Airline Flight dispatch) say the messages were received. Only one problem, they are claimed to be received 100's of miles away, and well after the time the aircraft is reported to have crashed.

 

[PilotsForTruth]

And oh man, those numbers are just INCREDIBLE. I mean you FINALLY broke the 600 thousandth mark. Sure made me eat my words on that one. Up a whopping 6%, 20%, and 26%? WOW. That must mean you are up to what? Like 5 views a day. Nice work Robbie. I can make a website about minorities punching babies that would dwarf your traffic. eace

Forgive me for not answering your questions, unlike you, I don't spend much time with people who I think are "braindead",

Edit (since apparently the above isn't clear to some, well, one person): Anyone else who has questions, we'll be happy to help. It is why we are here. For a faster response, feel free to contact us through our website.

 

[505]

I don't spend much time with people who I think are "braindead",

Aww Robbie that's so cruel man. These guys pay your bills bro. They keep a roof over your head. The least you could do is give them a little bit of your time.

Hear that truthers? Balsamo doesn't give a **** about you. Swell guy.

 

[mike2810]

ACK/NAK is a standard format for ACARS. Each airline has their ACARS messages tailored for their specific needs. American ACARS format is a bit different than the United ACARS, both are not in standard format.

In order to find out if a message was received, you'd have to either be trained as a United Dispatcher, or speak to one. Both Ed Ballinger and Michael Winters (Manager of United Airline Flight dispatch) say the messages were received. Only one problem, they are claimed to be received 100's of miles away, and well after the time the aircraft is reported to have crashed.

I find that highly suspect. (bold).
Please provide where in the airline manual on acars or acars itself supports your statement.

 

[mike2810]

ACK/NAK is a standard format for ACARS. Each airline has their ACARS messages tailored for their specific needs. American ACARS format is a bit different than the United ACARS, both are not in standard format.

In order to find out if a message was received, you'd have to either be trained as a United Dispatcher, or speak to one. Both Ed Ballinger and Michael Winters (Manager of United Airline Flight dispatch) say the messages were received. Only one problem, they are claimed to be received 100's of miles away, and well after the time the aircraft is reported to have crashed.

I find that highly suspect. (bold).
Please provide where in the airline manual on acars or acars itself supports your statement.

 

[PilotsForTruth]

I find that highly suspect. (bold).
Please provide where in the airline manual on acars or acars itself supports your statement.

So you think Ed Ballinger, a Dispatcher for United airlines for over 20 years, and the Manager Of Flight Dispatch for United Airlines are both wrong? Or maybe you feel they are lying?

Or do you feel the FBI interview is wrong or fabricated?

Sorry, we don't have a United Airlines Dispatch manual from 2001 which certainly is proprietary in nature. This is the type of information which can only be provided in a court room under subpoena, hence our reasons for supporting a new investigation. We would like to also see Ed and Mike on the stand clarifying their statement given to the FBI.

We are alarmed by the expert testimony given to the FBI which is fatal to the govt story by highly experienced United Airline Dispatchers. Your mileage may vary.

 

[mike2810]

So you think Ed Ballinger, a Dispatcher for United airlines for over 20 years, and the Manager Of Flight Dispatch for United Airlines are both wrong? Or maybe you feel they are lying?

Or do you feel the FBI interview is wrong or fabricated?

Sorry, we don't have a United Airlines Dispatch manual from 2001 which certainly is proprietary in nature. This is the type of information which can only be provided in a court room under subpoena, hence our reasons for supporting a new investigation. We would like to also see Ed and Mike on the stand clarifying their statement given to the FBI.

We are alarmed by the expert testimony given to the FBI which is fatal to the govt story by highly experienced United Airline Dispatchers. Your mileage may vary.

IMO, your statement is the typical legal bs ramble.
You could get a statement from the Airlines that states the manual is propietary. You could also get a statement from the airlines that states the timestamp is a automatic confirmation by the aircraft. I doubt your stance that an answer to what is the info really stating is proprietary.

As far as did the witness and what they are saying. This is the old debate tactic of which specialist is telling the truth or believes they are. That is why supporting evidence is why I like to see supporting evidence to such statements.

I won't bother to link to any sources that disagree with you. You seem to attack the source rather than the material stated.

 

[PilotsForTruth]

IMO, your statement is the typical legal bs ramble.
You could get a statement from the Airlines that states the manual is propietary.

A United Airlines Dispatch Manual is propriety to United Airlines. United Airlines owns it. That is what "proprietary" means....lol. Not to mention the fact such manuals are security sensitive.

You could also get a statement from the airlines that states the timestamp is a automatic confirmation by the aircraft. I doubt your stance that an answer to what is the info really stating is proprietary.

Regardless of what you believe about the timestamps, both Mike Winters and Ed Ballinger say that the messages were received at a time when the aircraft had already supposedly crashed according to the govt story, through ground stations 100's of miles away. Again, are you saying that Ed and Mike are wrong or lying? Have you read through the FBI interviews provided?

The ACARS messages that are claimed to not have been received, do not have a second time stamp.

Have you read the articles in full?

 

[mike2810]

A United Airlines Dispatch Manual is propriety to United Airlines. United Airlines owns it. That is what "proprietary" means....lol. Not to mention the fact such manuals are security sensitive.




Regardless of what you believe about the timestamps, both Mike Winters and Ed Ballinger say that the messages were received at a time when the aircraft had already supposedly crashed according to the govt story, through ground stations 100's of miles away. Again, are you saying that Ed and Mike are wrong or lying? Have you read through the FBI interviews provided?

The ACARS messages that are claimed to not have been received, do not have a second time stamp.

Have you read the articles in full?

yep., read the article in full. Have you?:mrgreen:

I know what propriety means

Yet you fail to answer the questions. Are you saying an airlines (United) would not state what the timestamp is/means?

So is it your stance that you will accept witness statements without collaborating evidence?
If so, very poor investigating methods.

 

[PilotsForTruth]

yep., read the article in full. Have you?

Yes, in fact I helped write it and source it.

I know what propriety means

Then why did you ask to get a statement from United Airlines saying that they have a Manual owned by United Airlines?

Yet you fail to answer the questions. Are you saying an airlines (United) would not state what the timestamp is/means?

Ed Ballinger and Mike Winters already did. The ACARS messages with a second time stamp is the received time stamp. The messages without a second time stamp, were not received, according to both Ed Ballinger, and Mike Winters, with an additional United Airlines Flight Dispatcher David Knerr present in the FBI interview.

Are you saying all of the above United Airlines Dispatchers (UAL DX) are wrong? Do you have one UAL DX to claim otherwise?

So is it your stance that you will accept witness statements without collaborating evidence?

Do you know what an "Expert Witness" is?

An expert witness, professional witness or judicial expert is a witness, who by virtue of education, training, skill, or experience, is believed to have expertise and specialised knowledge in a particular subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially and legally rely upon the witness's specialized (scientific, technical or other) opinion about an evidence or fact issue within the scope of his expertise, referred to as the expert opinion, as an assistance to the fact-finder.[1]​

I accept their testimony, yes. They are certainly experts on the matter.

Do you have any experts who claim to the contrary? If so, let see 'em.

 

[mike2810]

Yes, in fact I helped write it and source it.




Then why did you ask to get a statement from United Airlines saying that they have a Manual owned by United Airlines?





Ed Ballinger and Mike Winters already did. The ACARS messages with a second time stamp is the received time stamp. The messages without a second time stamp, were not received, according to both Ed Ballinger, and Mike Winters, with an additional United Airlines Flight Dispatcher David Knerr present in the FBI interview.

Are you saying all of the above United Airlines Dispatchers (UAL DX) are wrong? Do you have one UAL DX to claim otherwise?



Do you know what an "Expert Witness" is?

An expert witness, professional witness or judicial expert is a witness, who by virtue of education, training, skill, or experience, is believed to have expertise and specialised knowledge in a particular subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially and legally rely upon the witness's specialized (scientific, technical or other) opinion about an evidence or fact issue within the scope of his expertise, referred to as the expert opinion, as an assistance to the fact-finder.[1]​

I accept their testimony, yes. They are certainly experts on the matter.

Do you have any experts who claim to the contrary? If so, let see 'em.

So your on here promoting P4T. You have any other sources?

So are the people who disagree with you lying?
Still want to see hard evidence that what your saying about the time stamp is in fact true. Testimony by itself is not sufficient.

Does not matter if I have expert witness that say different. So your stance is there is no written document/guide that states the timestamp is a positive acknowledgment of the aircraft recieving a message.

Want to bet if I provided a link to a source that disagrees with you that you will attack the author?
I am mearly asking for independent conformation of what you are saying.

Question. If you are in fact correct, has any news agency or govt in the world came out in support of your findings? Has any other group, union, other than "truthers", came out in support of your findings?

 

[mike2810]

Interesting read

Return to Sender - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

Especially link to source 6. memoradum for the record.