Abortions - Why? [W:280, 411, 1768]

[RDU23]

I am one of the people that strongly oppose abortions. To start off, just think if you were to have been aborted... You would have never been able to live your life and enjoy the experiences. You would also of had absolutely NO say whatsoever in that decision to end your life at the beginning. We have absolutely no idea what those babies that have been aborted throughout history could have grown up to be. They could have changed the world for all we know. They could have been the next great leaders. To have a decision made on your life by someone else without your say is ridiculous in my opinion. Adoption can work wonders if that baby would have been kept alive. Why waste a life? Also, just taking the risk and raising the baby could turn into a miracle in some aspects. Many of the brightest and bravest people were raised in poverty and made it to the top through adversity. If you are aborting a baby over financial burdens, then you never know what that life story could have been. I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion? What are your thoughts on why it should/shouldn't be allowed?

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abortions - Why?

I am one of the people that strongly oppose abortions. To start off, just think if you were to have been aborted... You would have never been able to live your life and enjoy the experiences. You would also of had absolutely NO say whatsoever in that decision to end your life at the beginning. We have absolutely no idea what those babies that have been aborted throughout history could have grown up to be. They could have changed the world for all we know. They could have been the next great leaders. To have a decision made on your life by someone else without your say is ridiculous in my opinion. Adoption can work wonders if that baby would have been kept alive. Why waste a life? Also, just taking the risk and raising the baby could turn into a miracle in some aspects. Many of the brightest and bravest people were raised in poverty and made it to the top through adversity. If you are aborting a baby over financial burdens, then you never know what that life story could have been. I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion? What are your thoughts on why it should/shouldn't be allowed?

Background: 1) my mom and dad both wanted to have a second child before my mom conceived one 2) they had a very reasonable reason to have another child 3) my mom had a specific good purpose to have her pregnancy serve besides just my coming into the world and 4) the presence of the embryo/fetus inside my mom did not threaten her life, threaten her with permanent serious injury, or, indeed, cause her even a single discomfort, moment of morning sickness, inconvenience, pain, or illness, something which inspired a great many women to rethink what was traditionally claimed about pregnancy.

I'm glad my mom and dad had me, but the reason I'm glad is because my birth made them happy, answered their prayer, fulfilled their reason, served the good purpose my mom had for her pregnancy beyond me, and I did not make anyone feel physical pain by coming. But if my mom had not wanted to be pregnant with me and had wanted an abortion, I would certainly hope that I would have answered that prayer via spontaneous abortion, as she was a wonderful woman and deserved to have her prayers answered no matter what they were.

No one knows whether a baby would grow up to do something wonderful? Maybe if that woman did not have to give birth, she could do the something wonderful herself. I would hate to think that I came in by alienating someone else's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I myself think that it is terribly sad to abort a baby over financial burdens, but I don't believe that a woman should be forced to give up a baby for adoption over financial burdens, either. There is research which even Catholic priests have paid attention to which shows that US girls and women think giving a baby up for adoption is a worse choice than either abortion or giving birth and keeping the child. Adoption is, in my opinion, radically over-valued.

In any case, when any man has sex with a girl or woman, he is making that girl or woman risk getting pregnant, and in making her risk that, if he is completely against her having a legal right to choose whether to continue or terminate a pregnancy, he is essentially increasing her risk of death, major permanent injury such as permanent paralysis from the neck down, permanent pain, permanent incontinence, and permanent psychosis (due to unforeseeable complications in late pregnancy/childbirth). I do not think anyone who loves another would deliberately increase that other's chances of all those bad things, so I think that a man who is completely against a woman's right to choose does not love her, by definition. Women should never have sex with anti-choice men.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Re: Abortions - Why?

I am one of the people that strongly oppose abortions. To start off, just think if you were to have been aborted... You would have never been able to live your life and enjoy the experiences. You would also of had absolutely NO say whatsoever in that decision to end your life at the beginning. We have absolutely no idea what those babies that have been aborted throughout history could have grown up to be. They could have changed the world for all we know. They could have been the next great leaders. To have a decision made on your life by someone else without your say is ridiculous in my opinion. Adoption can work wonders if that baby would have been kept alive. Why waste a life? Also, just taking the risk and raising the baby could turn into a miracle in some aspects. Many of the brightest and bravest people were raised in poverty and made it to the top through adversity. If you are aborting a baby over financial burdens, then you never know what that life story could have been. I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion? What are your thoughts on why it should/shouldn't be allowed?

1.
If you don't exist, you can't very well care that you don't exist. So how would I feel if I'd been aborted? That's a nonsensical question. I wouldn't feel anything. Who cares?

2.
You have no say in existing either, and existing results in actual suffering by necessity, where as not existing results in no suffering at all. So I can turn this argument right back around at you, and it actually works better. Fact is, having no say in existing (being born) is actually a much more serious ethical concern than having no say in NOT existing.

3.
As pertains to what those fetuses may have been, again, I can turn this argument around just as easily: What if Hitler had been aborted? 12 million people may not have been senselessly killed. So by your logic, all fetuses should be aborted on the off-chance they turn out to be another Hitler. And that's obviously ridiculous.

Regardless, a significant portion of them probably would have never made it through pregnancy anyway. But the fact of the matter is, most of us have little or no impact on the world at large, and even if we did, that's a stupid reason to strip women of their personal rights en masse, which is what trying to cut off womens' access to abortion is. That tiny chance that fetus might become someone marginally important in a positive way is not worth destroying the lives of countless women.

And what about what THE WOMAN might have been, if she hadn't been forced through an unwanted pregnancy that destroyed her life? Maybe she would have done something amazing, but instead she's a broke single mother, or even dead due to complications. What about HER potential?

4.
Adoption is not a solution to pregnancy. It's a solution to parenting. Those are two totally different things. Pregnancy is destructive and depleting to the woman's body. Therefore, she has every right in the world to end it if it is not wanted. Abortion is the only solution to avoiding the harm caused by an unwanted pregnancy.

5.
What do I think of your opinion? I think it's ignorant, nothing but a series of logical fallacies, and completely fails to take the rights and well-being of the woman into consideration. I think it's sort of disturbing that you have more concern for a blob of tissue than you do for the actual person it's feeding off of.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

I am one of the people that strongly oppose abortions. To start off, just think if you were to have been aborted... You would have never been able to live your life and enjoy the experiences. You would also of had absolutely NO say whatsoever in that decision to end your life at the beginning.

Sqrt(-1) ... Irrational questions get irrational answers. It's foolish to even ponder such things. What if we didn't have gravity? Well then we wouldn't be here. It does nothing but provide you with a false emotional argument.

We have absolutely no idea what those babies that have been aborted throughout history could have grown up to be. They could have changed the world for all we know. They could have been the next great leaders.

They also could have been the next genocidal dictator, the person who released nukes, a serial killer. With a positive outcome, there is a negative outcome associated with it.

To have a decision made on your life by someone else without your say is ridiculous in my opinion.

Who says you are living at that point?

Adoption can work wonders if that baby would have been kept alive.

Assuming it is adopted... If I recall, I think there were are 130000 children in the foster care system.

Why waste a life?

It's not a waste.

Also, just taking the risk and raising the baby could turn into a miracle in some aspects.

Again, it could be a miracle or terror.

Many of the brightest and bravest people were raised in poverty and made it to the top through adversity.

A few were, but many Americans are born into poverty and remain in poverty. It's a vicious circle.

If you are aborting a baby over financial burdens, then you never know what that life story could have been. I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion? What are your thoughts on why it should/shouldn't be allowed?

I think your opinion is strictly emotional. I think it has no basis outside of emotion. It's a big hypothetical where you only measure positive outcomes and fail to consider any negative outcomes and fail to consider how the mother may feel. No one will make you get an abortion but it's an option for some women who want one.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Abortions - Why?

I do not think anyone who loves another would deliberately increase that other's chances of all those bad things, so I think that a man who is completely against a woman's right to choose does not love her, by definition. Women should never have sex with anti-choice men.

Be right back, going to go tell my wife I don't love her and that she doesn't love herself.

1.
If you don't exist, you can't very well care that you don't exist. So how would I feel if I'd been aborted? That's a nonsensical question. I wouldn't feel anything. Who cares?

The same reason we're ostensibly supposed to care if someone walks along right now and shoots you in the head. You would not exist anymore. Why should we care?

The remainder of your post is your typical exaggeration of pregnancy risks and your typical bigotry against Homo sapiens in utero. Nothing worth responding to. Moving on.

Who says you are living at that point?

Scientific fact. Kind of hard to have a part of your lifespan when you aren't alive.

Assuming it is adopted... If I recall, I think there were are 130000 children in the foster care system.

Best to kill them all, then? Lives of hardship are not worth living? No foster child ever made anything of themselves, so best to just cull them all now?

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Re: Abortions - Why?

The same reason we're ostensibly supposed to care if someone walks along right now and shoots you in the head. You would not exist anymore. Why should we care?

The remainder of your post is your typical exaggeration of pregnancy risks and your typical bigotry against Homo sapiens in utero. Nothing worth responding to. Moving on.

I have already explained to you the difference. I'm a sentient being who desires to live and contributes to the world. A ZEF is not any of those things. But again, I don't expect you to bend to something like readily obvious logic, because that's never been your style.

Exaggeration? Did you know about half of women who give birth will experience organ prolapse? And that's only one potential risk. There are dozens. Pregnancy is always damaging to the woman's body. There are too many risks with too high a likelihood for it not to be. The physics of it alone should make it obvious why it's damaging.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Scientific fact. Kind of hard to have a part of your lifespan when you aren't alive.

Really? I'm fairly certain I've read many times scientists refuse to define any one moment as the "moment of life." I've also searched quite thoroughly on PubMed and, nope, no research entitled "When Life Begins." Your turn - go substantiate your claim.

Home - PubMed - NCBI

Best to kill them all, then? Lives of hardship are not worth living? No foster child ever made anything of themselves, so best to just cull them all now?

Pretty much. A life of suffering has the same outcome. All life has the same outcome. Also, who are you to tell someone what they can and cannot do when it does not even involve you? That's quite selfish.

I have already explained to you the difference. I'm a sentient being who desires to live and contributes to the world. A ZEF is not any of those things. But again, I don't expect you to bend to something like readily obvious logic, because that's never been your style.

Exaggeration? Did you know about half of women who give birth will experience organ prolapse? And that's only one potential risk. There are dozens. Pregnancy is always damaging to the woman's body. There are too many risks with too high a likelihood for it not to be. The physics of it alone should make it obvious why it's damaging.

You are also self conscious. You are capable of rational thinking. You have a past, present, and future.

 

[RDU23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

I'll be honest, I disagree with most of what you have said. But that is just my opinion. No offense. I just think that adoption is a good thing in many circumstances. If you are incapable of being a good parent to raise a child, financial burdens restrain you, or any other reason you would choose an abortion, that giving it to a family that IS capable and WANTS to raise a child is a fantastic choice. Also, if you are worried about all of those possible medical conditions, then you shouldn't be trying to conceive a baby in the first place. Now I know that rape and other bad things like mistakes exist in this world. Also, I am not saying that abortion should not exist completely in this world. There are circumstances, for example, problems with the baby that could cause a reasonable abortion decision. Or even risk to your own life if the baby isn't aborted. When you narrow it down to those reasons, abortions should be done at a much lower rate. That is just my opinion though. Not trying to impose my argument. We all can learn from each other, so thank you!

 

[RDU23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

JayDubya I am so thankful you replied to that post. I could not agree more with all of the replies you gave. Pretty much sums up all that I think towards what they say. If a woman thinks so selfishly of herself and her body over her child then she should not have even pondered the idea of having a child in the first place. Parenting takes sacrifice.

 

[Babylon_Drifter]

Re: Abortions - Why?

I am one of the people that strongly oppose abortions. To start off, just think if you were to have been aborted... You would have never been able to live your life and enjoy the experiences. You would also of had absolutely NO say whatsoever in that decision to end your life at the beginning. We have absolutely no idea what those babies that have been aborted throughout history could have grown up to be. They could have changed the world for all we know. They could have been the next great leaders. To have a decision made on your life by someone else without your say is ridiculous in my opinion. Adoption can work wonders if that baby would have been kept alive. Why waste a life? Also, just taking the risk and raising the baby could turn into a miracle in some aspects. Many of the brightest and bravest people were raised in poverty and made it to the top through adversity. If you are aborting a baby over financial burdens, then you never know what that life story could have been. I sure am glad that I wasn't put through this terrible method. Aren't you? This is just my opinion though. I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think of my opinion? What are your thoughts on why it should/shouldn't be allowed?

Is that anymore different then asking, "What if your parents abstained have sex?" The results would have been no different and you wouldn't have been the wiser.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Why do you believe you have the right to dictate on a woman's health decision? Its not your body?
Plus if you dont like abortion, simple, dont get one.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

I'll be honest, I disagree with most of what you have said. But that is just my opinion. No offense. I just think that adoption is a good thing in many circumstances.

Yes, adoption is a good thing ... if it happens! Jeez.

If you are incapable of being a good parent to raise a child, financial burdens restrain you, or any other reason you would choose an abortion, that giving it to a family that IS capable and WANTS to raise a child is a fantastic choice.

It's not as simple as "here's my child. Take it and go!"

Now I know that rape and other bad things like mistakes exist in this world. Also, I am not saying that abortion should not exist completely in this world. There are circumstances, for example, problems with the baby that could cause a reasonable abortion decision. Or even risk to your own life if the baby isn't aborted. When you narrow it down to those reasons, abortions should be done at a much lower rate. That is just my opinion though. Not trying to impose my argument. We all can learn from each other, so thank you!

Again, you are dictating someone else's choice. If you want that then women can dictate when you get a vasectomy. It's only fair.

 

[Babylon_Drifter]

Re: Abortions - Why?

With all due respect, dealing with pro-"lifers" in a public forum is like discussing economics with communists. Sure, they'll get on their moral high horse and expose the merits of their ideology but there is no real science or facts to support it. Have them elaborate an example where their ideology has even worked and you'll bring the discussion to a neck breaking halt.

The right-to-"lifers" have no real solution to abortion and they are more occupied in massaging their own moral egos than stopping abortion. Don't believe me? Just look at the facts. Millions upon millions of criminal abortions go either unnoticed or unaddressed on their watch. And worst yet, their laws end up killing tens of thousands of women every year at a rate of one woman per 40 seconds. The cruel reality is that pro-"lifers" are closer to being anti-"life"...they kill more people and oddly seem immune to this irony.

Legal abortion, on the other hand, saves lives. It might not reduce the rate of abortion but neither has criminalizing it. So when one embarks on this discussion about abortion rights, what really needs to be discussed isn't whether a fetus is a person/has rights but whether abortions should be performed in hospital or a back alley? Should pregnant women have to die because a segment of the population is bothered by legal abortions? That is the only difference between being for abortion rights and against it.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Legal abortion, on the other hand, saves lives.

The death rate is over 100%. Funny way of saving lives.

 

[Babylon_Drifter]

Re: Abortions - Why?

The death rate is over 100%. Funny way of saving lives.

The facts speak for themselves. Meanwhile, you continue to kill tens of thousands more and arrogantly think you are entitled to be pro-"life", a title you have yet to earn.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Legal abortion, on the other hand, saves lives.

The death rate is over 100%. Funny way of saving lives.

I have already explained to you the difference. I'm a sentient being who desires to live and contributes to the world.

Your sentience and sapience are things you developed as you age, but they are hallmarks of being a member of the human species. The victims of abortion are just as alive and just as human as you or I.

Plus if you dont like abortion, simple, dont get one.

Don't like theft? Don't steal anything.

Don't like rape? Don't rape anyone.

Anarchy, woo!

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Meanwhile, you continue to kill tens of thousands more

...

Excuse you?

Um, what?

 

[Babylon_Drifter]

Re: Abortions - Why?

...

Excuse you?

Um, what?

You heard me. Read my post instead of cookie cutting the parts you choose to read.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

The death rate is over 100%. Funny way of saving lives.




Your sentience and sapience are things you developed as you age, but they are hallmarks of being a member of the human species. The victims of abortion are just as alive and just as human as you or I.




Don't like theft? Don't steal anything.

Don't like rape? Don't rape anyone.

Anarchy, woo!

That's not anarchy (anarchy means "without a leader"). That's having a choice.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Abortions - Why?

You heard me. Read my post instead of cookie cutting the parts you choose to read.

Oh, I read your accusation. It just didn't make any goddamn sense so I wanted to make sure you were actually that deluded. Thanks for the confirmation.


You people have the blood of hundreds of millions on your hands because of your permissive attitude to letting people hire contract killers for their own offspring.

You then turn around and say we are responsible for "more" death than you? Because some dirtbags who kill their own kids in violation of the law sometimes have the decency to die in the process?

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Oh JayDubya - about those articles you were supposed to find to substantiate your claim? I'd like them. Thanks.

 

[Babylon_Drifter]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Oh, I read your accusation. It just didn't make any goddamn sense so I wanted to make sure you were actually that deluded. Thanks for the confirmation.

You people have the blood of hundreds of millions on your hands because of your permissive attitude to letting people hire contract killers for their own offspring.

You then turn around and say we are responsible for "more" death than you? Because some dirtbags who kill their own kids in violation of the law sometimes have the decency to die in the process?

So in other words, you lacked the mental fortitude to refute anything I said and instead regressed to the usual ad hominem attacks. Another "lifer" defeated.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Re: Abortions - Why?

Don't like theft? Don't steal anything.

Don't like rape? Don't rape anyone.

Anarchy, woo!

Terrible counter example.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Re: Abortions - Why?

So in other words, you lacked the mental fortitude to refute anything I said and instead regressed to the usual ad hominem attacks. Another "lifer" defeated.

Oh yeah, and they sky is still blue!

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Abortions - Why?

So in other words, you lacked the mental fortitude to refute anything I said and instead regressed to the usual ad hominem attacks. Another "lifer" defeated.

What ad hominem attacks?

You respond to a substantive assertion of why you're delusional with delusions.

You lay at our hands the number of violent criminals who died from self-inflicted wounds.

I lay on your hands the hundreds of millions of innocent human beings whom you and those like you permit to be killed and want the world to continue to do nothing to prevent or punish this action.


Your "victims" are both relatively few in number and their deaths are well-earned.