Abortion

[BirdinHand]

Yes, we do. When you're in a position to save someone and you choose to let them die, that's Depraved Indifference if not Voluntary Manslaughter. People go to prison for that.

Incorrect.


Depraved indifference would be pushing someone into a lake, etc and they drown. You may not have had the intention of them drowning, but your action of pushing them in led to their death.

It would NOT be when someone is drowning in a lake and you don’t jump in to save them.

No average civilian is required to put their life at risk to save another person.

 

[Ethel2]

I presented a list of facts why women dont choose to abort healthy viable fetuses. You ignored it.

You believe that whole, living fetuses are dragged out of a woman's vagina and then killed...you are clueless here.

And by law, in several states...she can decide whenever she wants...and yet, no one does. Your feelings dont override her needs. That's why we have laws and rights. But you'd rather go on and on with your self-righteous posts as if they do.

So I have your personal guarantee that not a single abortion after 20 weeks has been performed in this country where the baby ended up being not an unviable 20 weeker but instead a viable 23-24 weeker. Is that what you expect me to believe-just take your word for it?
No thanks.
Let’s codify it and set the legal limit at 20 weeks. Let’s make what you in your ignorance claim “always” happens without exception the law.
You shouldn’t have a problem with codifying it since that would be consistent with what “always” happens, right?

 

[BirdinHand]

So I have your personal guarantee that not a single abortion after 20 weeks has been performed in this country where the baby ended up being not an unviable 20 weeker but instead a viable 23-24 weeker. Is that what you expect me to believe-just take your word for it?
No thanks.
Let’s codify it and set the legal limit at 20 weeks. Let’s make what you in your ignorance claim “always” happens without exception the law.
You shouldn’t have a problem with codifying it since that would be consistent with what “always” happens, right?

No.

Make the decisions for your own body.

 

[Seth]

Incorrect.

I am correct.

 

[BirdinHand]

Yes, we do. When you're in a position to save someone and you choose to let them die, that's Depraved Indifference if not Voluntary Manslaughter. People go to prison for that.

If this was the case, every person in the US could be charged with “depraved indifference” for allowing someone in need of a liver or a kidney transplant to die when they had a kidney or a liver that was a match.

No one is required to sacrifice their body for the life of another human.

 

[Seth]

Make the decisions for your own body.

What public policy is going to be is everyone's business.

 

[BirdinHand]

I am correct.

No you are not.

 

[BirdinHand]

What public policy is going to be is everyone's business.

No it really isn’t.

Women will continue to have abortions regardless of state laws.

They’ll come to states like NJ where we have made sure that abortion remains safe and legal.

All states that criminalize and restrict abortions are doing is forcing women to either travel or have “back alley” abortions. And, of course, making it so that doctors don’t want to practice medicine in those states.

The long term impacts on healthcare in states with restrictive abortion laws will be lower healthcare standards in those states because doctors simply won’t want to practice there.

 

[Seth]

If this was the case, every person in the US could be charged with “depraved indifference” for allowing someone in need of a liver or a kidney transplant to die when they had a kidney or a liver that was a match.

So you're likening a woman's natural reproductive system to a disease.

How misogynistic of you.

 

[Seth]

No you are not.

I am.

No it really isn’t.

It really is tho.

 

[Ethel2]

No.

Make the decisions for your own body.

Including possibly risking the life of a viable fetus?

 

[BirdinHand]

So you're likening a woman's natural reproductive system to a disease.

How misogynistic of you.

Pregnancy isn’t a walk in the park on a sunny afternoon.

It is a health risk to a woman and can even kill her.

That’s reality.

 

[Gaius46]

Yes, we do. When you're in a position to save someone and you choose to let them die, that's Depraved Indifference if not Voluntary Manslaughter. People go to prison for that.

Incorrect there is no general duty to save someone. There are exceptions for special relationships as between a parent and a child or if your job is to save that person or if you caused the peril in the first place but as a general rule you are not required anywhere in the US that I am aware of to risk yourself for another.

If you believ otherwise please reference the specific laws.

 

[Seth]

It is a health risk to a woman and can even kill her.

You're affirming your view that pregnancy is an illness?

 

[BirdinHand]

Including possibly risking the life of a viable fetus?

Every pregnancy is a risk to a woman.

 

[BirdinHand]

You're affirming your view that pregnancy is an illness?

I’m stating a fact.

Pregnancy can permanently harm and/or kill women.

Maternal Mortality

What could be more tragic than a mother losing her life in the moment that she is giving birth to her newborn? Why are mothers dying and what can be done to prevent these deaths?

ourworldindata.org

 

[Ethel2]

Every pregnancy is a risk to a woman.

If the woman’s health is at risk you get an abortion whenever it’s medically necessary. We aren’t discussing that sort of situation.
You didn’t answer the question so I’ll repeat it: should a woman be able to put at risk the life of a potentially viable baby? What if the gestation’s age is estimated to be at 22 weeks-should she be able to choose to abort that fetus? Don’t bother with the “it never happens “ argument. If its illegal it will happen even less.

 

[Seth]

I’m stating a fact.

Wow so the left has biological men dressing up as women and invading women's spaces, even insisting they, biological men, menstruate...and now the left says pregnancy is an illness.

I'm sure glad we have the 2nd Amendment.

 

[BirdinHand]

Wow so the left has biological men dressing up as women and invading women's spaces, even insisting they, biological men, menstruate...and now the left says pregnancy is an illness.

I'm sure glad we have the 2nd Amendment.

I’m sorry you were so poorly informed that you didn’t know pregnancy can kill women.

 

[BirdinHand]

If the woman’s health is at risk you get an abortion whenever it’s medically necessary. We aren’t discussing that sort of situation.
You didn’t answer the question so I’ll repeat it: should a woman be able to put at risk the life of a potentially viable baby?

I’m saying there is no room for the government in the doctor’s office when a woman is discussing her healthcare and she is pregnant.

Old men in state buildings need to mind their own business.

 

[Ethel2]

I’m saying there is no room for the government in the doctor’s office when a woman is discussing her healthcare and she is pregnant.

Old men in state buildings need to mind their own business.

You still didn’t answer the question. That’s probably because you see the ethical dilemma. I’ll ask it one more time: in your opinion should a woman have the right to choose to abort a fetus that might be 23-24 weeks along and therefore potentially viable? Why isn’t that murder should it happen? It’s withholding medical care from a baby that might live simply because the mother doesn’t want it alive, doesn’t want to deal with it.

 

[Liberal7360]

The "born" qualifyer is inclusive, not exclusive, leaving the door open to also give those right to people not born in the US be they born in another country or not born at all.

Additionally, a state doesn't have to conferr personhood onto the unborn at all in order to ban a medical procedure.

Yes I know. Which is why I posted the other two situations that give people the rights in the constitution.

A naturalized citizen and those who are under our jurisdiction. Under our jurisdiction applies to those who aren't naturalized citizens or a born citizen. Basically that amendment says anyone who is living and breathing air.

If you aren't born here, a naturalized citizen or under jurisdiction of the US, you don't get any rights in the constitution.

A fetus isn't breathing air, isn't born and isn't under our jurisdiction so a fetus has none of the right in the constitution.

I also agree, states can ban abortion for any reason they want.

What's your point?

 

[Liberal7360]

Ok, here is where I give the "No Ban" folks the heck I gave the '"It is a human being at inception" folk in the other thread.

Science, and the common sense it represents, has to have something to say in the matter.

If it is viable outside the uterus, even with assistance, we have to very seriously, practically, and again that phrase - common sense - conclude this is a person.

So in considering when abortion ought to stop being a viable option and other things be considered, like adoption, is at the point where the fetus is viable outside the womb. So abortion on demand without serious life saving medical reason all the way up till birth.... come on folks. That's as bizarre as the folks who say the second the sperm touches the egg its a human being and you must bring it to term.

There is a place in between where common sense lives.

Can you please give us the name of a woman who aborted a healthy viable fetus in the last trimester because she didn't want to be pregnant anymore?

And can you please give us the name of a doctor who would perform that abortion?

The reality is that if the woman doesn't want the pregnancy she has aborted in the first trimester.

Women aren't monsters.

Some men might but women won't so please stop projecting what men might do onto women.

A late term abortion is very rare and only when there's a serious problem with the fetus or woman or both. The fetus is probably dead or will die soon after birth.

You mention using common sense, I think that you might want to do that too.

Can you please tell me why you believe a woman would have an abortion on a healthy and viable fetus in the last trimester only because she doesn't want to be a mom? And can you tell me why a doctor would do such a thing?

Is it projection? Is the fact that men would probably do that the reason why you believe women would?

Why do you believe women and doctors are monsters?

I'm serious and sincere here. I would like to know the answer to those questions.

 

[BirdinHand]

You still didn’t answer the question. That’s probably because you see the ethical dilemma. I’ll ask it one more time: in your opinion should a woman have the right to choose to abort a fetus that might be 23-24 weeks along and therefore potentially viable? Why isn’t that murder should it happen? It’s withholding medical care from a baby that might live simply because the mother doesn’t want it alive, doesn’t want to deal with it.

Yes.

A woman should be able to opt for an abortion at any point in a pregnancy and her reasons for doing so are absolutely none of your business.

If, for example, at 23 weeks, she decides that she wants an abortion so that she can escape her abusive boyfriend/husband - and not have to be tied to her abuser via the family court system, etc. - I support her right to abort.

I support the woman and recognize that SHE and she alone knows what is best for her life, her body, and the potential life that she is carrying.

I do not walk in her shoes, I am in zero position to dictate to her what is best.

 

[Ethel2]

Can you please give us the name of a woman who aborted a healthy viable fetus in the last trimester because she didn't want to be pregnant anymore?

And can you please give us the name of a doctor who would perform that abortion?

The reality is that if the woman doesn't want the pregnancy she has aborted in the first trimester.

Women aren't monsters.

Some men might but women won't so please stop projecting what men might do onto women.

A late term abortion is very rare and only when there's a serious problem with the fetus or woman or both. The fetus is probably dead or will die soon after birth.

You mention using common sense, I think that you might want to do that too.

Can you please tell me why you believe a woman would have an abortion on a healthy and viable fetus in the last trimester only because she doesn't want to be a mom? And can you tell me why a doctor would do such a thing?

Is it projection? Is the fact that men would probably do that the reason why you believe women would?

Why do you believe women and doctors are monsters?

I'm serious and sincere here. I would like to know the answer to those questions.

I have a better idea: YOU guarantee that it’s never happened.
Oh wait….you can’t make that guarantee, can you-since you weren’t present at every abortion that has ever occurred in this country.
Some women are monsters. Some men are monsters too.
20 weeks. That’s more than enough time for a woman to make her decision. After that she risks killing a potentially viable baby. Make it the law.