Abortion - The way it used to be

[_Sal]

I agree.

It may be the death of an embryo but it not a person.

This is an earlier post before I responded about 10 minutes, but I just hope you get it.

Not going to say much until I am sure we see if your attitude changes.

what...you want to try that again...you have me quoting somethings I absolutely never said

 

[RamFel]

I agree.
It may be the death of an embryo but it not a person.
Most are just flushed away , many times when it is a spontaneous abortion ( miscarriage ) the woman is not even aware she was pregnant.

so you don't think it is a person, but when you think someone thinks badly of you, you cry foul.

where's the logic in that?

 

[minnie616]

But they will continue, right?

Unfortunately the only way to stop elective abortions is to stop unwanted pregnancies.

I am telling the truth.
That is why I want to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

 

[Ancient Herald]

Preserving human life is universal.

like hell it is.

 

[Ancient Herald]

Unfortunately the only way to stop elective abortions is to stop unwanted pregnancies.

I am telling the truth.
That is why I want to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

The best way to stop unwanted pregnancies is stop encouraging people to have sex, and stop the nonsense that a guy has to prove he is a man by being a man slut.

After all, if a woman is a slut for having multiple partners, why can't a guy be judged as a man slut for the same thing?

It is this double standard that a guy has to have as much sex as possible that is large influence in getting women pregnant and with single mothers.

Stop the double standards.

 

[minnie616]

Unwanted pregnancies and abortions have been around since the early Greek days.
We have been lowering the numbers with effective Birth control in the US.
In the 1930s white married women aborted over 24 percent of their first pregnancies.
In the 1980s during the Birth Control pill scare ( when BC pills were said to cause strokes and blood clots over 30 percent of pregnancies were aborted.

In 2013 about 20.2 percent of pregnancies were aborted.

That is a lower percentage than Sweden, Denmark or France and tied with the UK.

Percentage of pregnancies aborted by country (listed by percentage)


In 2014 according to CDC about 18 percent were aborted.

 

[Scrabaholic]

This is an earlier post before I responded about 10 minutes, but I just hope you get it.

Not going to say much until I am sure we see if your attitude changes.

It's not Minnie who should be changing her attitude.

 

[RamFel]

It's not Minnie who should be changing her attitude.

Why would you deny her the opportunity?

It's her contention that fetuses are not valuable enough to save, which if you really think about it, is an amazingly frank admission. I would never admit to something so serious. But there is strength in numbers, isn't there? She has lots of company here on DP and she is among friendly's (but not friends) so she has learned how to be so immune to the shame that frankly all of you should be feeling.

So no. I have nothing to be ashamed about in this regard and I do not have to change my attitude.

 

[RamFel]

Unwanted pregnancies and abortions have been around since the early Greek days.
We have been lowering the numbers with effective Birth control in the US.
In the 1930s white married women aborted over 24 percent of their first pregnancies.
In the 1980s during the Birth Control pill scare ( when BC pills were said to cause strokes and blood clots over 30 percent of pregnancies were aborted.
In 2013 about 20.2 percent of pregnancies were aborted.
That is a lower percentage than Sweden, Denmark or France and tied with the UK.
Percentage of pregnancies aborted by country (listed by percentage)
In 2014 according to CDC about 18 percent were aborted.

You know, it's quite possible that this lowering of numbers that you are so proud of may be nothing but a cyclical event, and will continue until it's up again. To be truthful, it happens all the time. In the universe, rhythm is everywhere. Day and night are always cycling back and forth. The moon goes through cycles every 28 days. The four seasons as well and the sun develops sunspots every 11 years.

This may be the same thing. You should read the book of Ecclesiastes in the old testament.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Or if everyone come to realize what it is that we are actually involved in, and goes into the street in masses to protest. I would wager that your involvement makes you the supporter of something that is really wrong and you would be wrong by association. Judged by what you support and your name dragged through the mud.

If that happened - perhaps - but it's about as likely as dogs sprouting wings and flying.

Nothing lasts forever
Never say never.

I'm not holding my breath - but feel free to believe whatsoever floats your boat.

The Roman Empire only lasted 400 years. Time flies when you're a human.

No empire has stood forever. Society is constantly in flux. The only sure thing we can see from studying history is that as long as humans are humans, they will fight to be free. That's a given. A woman forced to bear a child - or care for a child - she does not want, is not free.

So far, you've not shared how your utopic world might come about. You have not told us how society could change so dramatically as to accept that women should bear unwanted pregnancies.

And, you've also failed to address how the men who took part in creating those pregnancies will suddenly feel a sense of responsibility and step up to the plate.

It sounds like you're talking about a robot-world. A world in which people have no free will, no hopes, no goals and no dreams.

Is that the kind of world you foresee?

 

[HowardBThiname]

This may be the same thing. You should read the book of Ecclesiastes in the old testament.

You should read the definition of "etiological myth."

 

[HowardBThiname]

you would never be able to prove that because you would drive it underground again

I'm getting the feeling that he might be talking about a religious event in which the world as we see it now changes to a world where no one sins any longer. A world where there is no death, pain, rape, etc. So, there would be no need for abortion. No one ever makes a mistake. There are a number of denominations that follow that type of thinking, the Jehovah Witnesses among them.

I don't want to denounce his beliefs, although debating with someone who holds those types of beliefs is like nailing jello to a tree.

Most of the rest of us agree that there is no looming Armageddon on the horizon, no Second Coming to anticipate, no sinners thrown into a lake of fire, and no rosy ever-after for those who remain.

 

[_Sal]

I'm getting the feeling that he might be talking about a religious event in which the world as we see it now changes to a world where no one sins any longer. A world where there is no death, pain, rape, etc. So, there would be no need for abortion. No one ever makes a mistake. There are a number of denominations that follow that type of thinking, the Jehovah Witnesses among them.

I don't want to denounce his beliefs, although debating with someone who holds those types of beliefs is like nailing jello to a tree.

Most of the rest of us agree that there is no looming Armageddon on the horizon, no Second Coming to anticipate, no sinners thrown into a lake of fire, and no rosy ever-after for those who remain.

I don't have a problem with people wanting a better world for all, that's wonderful. I only have a problem when attaining that perfect world conflicts directly with another person's freedom to choose their own direction. And while it is convenient to place that burden upon females it is not a female issue, it is a human issue.

Those who oppose abortion, confuse a tiny clump of cells that has the ability to move forward in a natural manner and grow to become a child with actual children. We don't even know if the womb would at some future point expel those cells.

In many cases I find males who oppose abortion to be quite fast to blame, shame or burden the woman and somehow the male role is all sanitized.

It is a reflection of the patriarchal attitude that needs to dealt with through educating them about equality and human rights.

 

[RamFel]

You should read the definition of "etiological myth."

I just got done reading it. You have some funny ideas.

 

[HowardBThiname]

I just got done reading it. You have some funny ideas.

Not just "my" ideas. They are the collective ideas of scholars worldwide in response to the stories in the Bible, Koran, Torah and other holy books. I don't want to come down on what appears to be a religious issue for you - and you don't seem confident enough in that issue to explain what you mean by it, anyway, so this discussion probably isn't going anywhere.

 

[minnie616]

Why would you deny her the opportunity?

It's her contention that fetuses are not valuable enough to save, ....
....

I never said fetuses are not valuable to save.
In fact I said most women who miscarry would love it if we able were able to prevent 10 percent ( or more of all known miscarriages) that happen and have a healthy pregnancy with the birth of healthy baby instead of losing the fetus due to miscarriage.

From post # 112 of this thread.

What woman who ever lost a wanted pregnancy to miscarriage would not thrilled if we reduce known miscarriages by 10 percent with a healthy outcome of a well baby?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/238184-abortion-way-used-12.html

 

[minnie616]

You know, it's quite possible that this lowering of numbers that you are so proud of may be nothing but a cyclical event, and will continue until it's up again. To be truthful, it happens all the time. In the universe, rhythm is everywhere. Day and night are always cycling back and forth. The moon goes through cycles every 28 days. The four seasons as well and the sun develops sunspots every 11 years.

This may be the same thing. ...

I know because in countries that outlaw birth control and abortions the rate of unwanted pregnancies and the rate abortions is much, much higher (and has stayed high with no decrease ) than the US .

 

[JayDubya]

I don't have a problem with people wanting a better world for all, that's wonderful. I only have a problem when attaining that perfect world conflicts directly with another person's freedom to choose their own direction.

Freedom of choice is a great economic principle and I for one think it's important and everyone should have plenty of choices, and sure, when it's only your own body you're impacting, you should be allowed wide reign. Many things which are criminal now, you should have unrestricted access to, as long as you're only hurting yourself of your own free will.

At the same time, freedom of choice is not relevant at all when talking about hiring a "doctor" to kill another human being for you anymore than it is relevant to you choosing to kill another human being yourself, or to rape another human being, or to steal their property, or... or... or... These things are all morally wrong because they violate our natural human rights, and these rights are the basis for laws, courts, and prisons which exist to protect those rights.

I suppose folks are still "free to choose" to do harm to other human beings in aggression, but then they also have to accept the legal consequences.

Those who oppose abortion, confuse a tiny clump of cells that has the ability to move forward in a natural manner and grow to become a child with actual children. We don't even know if the womb would at some future point expel those cells.

You and I are a clump of cells. Many, many cells, but you must realize that your body, everything that is you, is nothing more than a large group of cells.

If you mean "child" as a stage of life rather than a general term, okay, sure, the Homo sapiens in utero isn't there yet. The thing is, that doesn't matter. There's no arbitrary reason why one stage of life means killing them is okay. Every human being on this planet will potentially get older and advance to the next stage of life if they don't die today and they aren't killed. That's the only potential thing about any of us - we're never potentially going to become human beings - we were human beings from the moment we were conceived.

The possibility of a natural death due to miscarriage does not excuse deliberately killing them anymore than the possibility you might have a heart attack in 10 seconds would excuse someone stabbing you in the heart right now.

In many cases I find males who oppose abortion to be quite fast to blame, shame or burden the woman and somehow the male role is all sanitized.

I've certainly not been afraid to point out that any man who is party to the hiring of the abortion doctor or an accomplice in any way belongs in prison just the same as the client and her hired killer.

I've also noted many times that from the moment an offspring is created, the father is financially responsible and should be providing other support whenever it is required - that's what a father is supposed to do, but at the very least he should be compelled by force of law to pay his fair share. All those medical bills from prenatal care and whatnot - there are at least two patients involved everytime a pregnant woman goes to a doctor.

Both parents are obliged to provide for the offspring they created. They consented to everyone of those responsibilities when they consented to have sex.

It is a reflection of the patriarchal attitude that needs to dealt with through educating them about equality and human rights.

You are the one who requires an education about equality and human rights, since you think women are superior and deserve a special privilege to commit homicide without legal consequence.


If you believed in human equality, then you would oppose some humans having the legal status where other humans can kill them on a whim.

 

[_Sal]

You and I are a clump of cells. Many, many cells, but you must realize that your body, everything that is you, is nothing more than a large group of cells.

no I personally am way more than a clump of cells...you may certainly feel you have no higher value than a two day old clump of cells...it's okay that you hold that belief, you simply can't make me hold that belief or step in line to the behaviour that must certainly follow if I did.

If you mean "child" as a stage of life rather than a general term, okay, sure, the Homo sapiens in utero isn't there yet. The thing is, that doesn't matter

no, to you it doesn't matter, but to me it does matter

There's no arbitrary reason why one stage of life means killing them is okay.

i understand you believe this...I get it...but I don't believe this...you don't seem to get it

you think women are superior and deserve a special privilege to commit homicide without legal consequence.

your blind ignorance and attitude finally appears...you were trying really really hard to be civil...I really was nicely surprised...but then, here you are

so let me say one more time, women aren't in this alone, this is not a female issue, it is a human issue...

you sure do like to divide the sexes don't you

If you believed in human equality, then you would oppose some humans having the legal status where other humans can kill them on a whim.

:lol: semantics eh...they matter

 

[JayDubya]

your blind ignorance and attitude finally appears...you were trying really really hard to be civil...I really was nicely surprised...but then, here you are

There is nothing uncivil in that statement.

Nothing uncivil, and nothing that is not absolutely factual.While you are accusing us of somehow dismissing or hating women, the reality is that is you who does not believe in equality, as you believe women deserve a special priviledge to commit homicide without legal consequence.

I'm not sure how you could go about denying that objective fact, but you are welcome to try.

so let me say one more time, women aren't in this alone, this is not a female issue, it is a human issue.

you sure do like to divide the sexes don't you

I want everyone treated equally. I'm not sure how you get identity politics from my "every human being is created equal - treat everyone the same" principles, but you are welcome to explain how you could possibly reinterpret my statement to mean the opposite of what it means.

 

[RamFel]

I know because in countries that outlaw birth control and abortions the rate of unwanted pregnancies and the rate abortions is much, much higher (and has stayed high with no decrease ) than the US .

Are they weak and poor countries, with large populations of the destitute, and lots of starving children? Or are they rich countries with strong economies ?

 

[minnie616]

Are they weak and poor countries, with large populations of the destitute, and lots of starving children? Or are they rich countries with strong economies ?

Malta is in the Mediteranean and is not considered a poor Country.

Malta is a growing economy, a gateway to Europe, Your business presence in Malta is your Business empire in EUROPE.

A gateway to Europe | MALTA TRADE CITY


From wiki

Urbanization
According to Eurostat, Malta Island is a single Larger Urban Zone nominally referred to as "Valletta". According to Demographia, the whole country is identified as urban area.[14] According to European Spatial Planning Observation Network, Malta is identified as Functional Urban Area (FUA).[15] According to United Nations, about 95% area of Malta is urban area and the number grows every year.[16] Also, according to the results of ESPON and EU Commission studies, "the whole territory of Malta constitutes a single urban region".[17]

Economy Edit

Main article: Economy of Malta

Valletta's maritime industrial zone

Limestone quarries in Siġġiewi

Oil tanks in Birżebbuġa
The main island of Malta contributes significantly to the country's overall economy, which itself is classified as an advanced economy according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF).[18] Until 1800 Malta depended on cotton, tobacco and its shipyards for exports. Once under British control, they came to depend on Malta Dockyard for support of the Royal Navy, especially during the Crimean war of 1854. Malta's economy was boosted by the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869, as there was a massive increase of civilian shipping which entered the port. Ships stopping at Malta's docks for refuelling helped the Entrepôt trade, which brought additional benefits to the island. Towards the end of the 19th century the economy began declining, and by the 1940s Malta's economy was in serious crisis. One factor was the longer range of newer merchant ships that required less frequent refuelling stops. The economy was boosted again after World War II when the island needed to be rebuilt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta_(island)

 

[_Sal]

There is nothing uncivil in that statement.

Nothing uncivil, and nothing that is not absolutely factual.

actually my phraseology was off there....you are correct you were not uncivil with that statement...what I was actually saying was until that statement you were completely civil...when you go off the rails and start telling me what I think, that is not uncivil...it's merely ridiculous and gauche. Telling another what they think or believe can not be construed as fact, it is merely your opinion of what I think, given your ability to follow along, I'm not giving you much credit with that ability

While you are accusing us

who is "us"? I didn't accuse you personally of anything. If I have some belief I hold regarding your post I will address you personally. However if the shoe fits...

of somehow dismissing or hating women,

you want to see misogyny in action, go no further than the abortion discussions in here yes, some of the accusations and attitudes are down right archaic and barbaric...

the reality is that is you who does not believe in equality,

hm...do tell

as you believe women deserve a special priviledge to commit homicide without legal consequence.

no actually it's legal, no special privilege needed so I'm good with that

I'm not sure how you could go about denying that objective fact, but you are welcome to try.

just follow along with my posts, you're a bright lad, read several times if you need to...take your time

I want everyone treated equally.

as long as they are following your belief structure and your rules

I'm not sure how you get identity politics from my "every human being is created equal - treat everyone the same" principles, but you are welcome to explain how you could possibly reinterpret my statement to mean the opposite of what it means.

see above

 

[JANFU]

And that's why they went to abortionists back then. But they don't have that problem these days and we should stop trying to sell them the abortion option because they now know they don't need it.

It's not 1963 anymore.

Tell that to the substantial number of single women on welfare who for the most part are economically trapped. Who are treated like crap by Govt's and society in general.

 

[JayDubya]

actually my phraseology was off there....you are correct you were not uncivil with that statement...what I was actually saying was until that statement you were completely civil...when you go off the rails and start telling me what I think, that is not uncivil...it's merely ridiculous and gauche. Telling another what they think or believe can not be construed as fact, it is merely your opinion of what I think, given your ability to follow along, I'm not giving you much credit with that ability

This isn't a matter of telepathy. You told us what you think.

You have stated your support legal elective abortion. Ergo, you do not believe in equality, as you believe women deserve a special privilege to commit homicide without legal consequence.

you want to see misogyny in action, go no further than the abortion discussions in here

Misandry is far, far more common around these parts.

Damn near every day someone tries to silence men from even having an opinion. Sexism against women around here is rare; can't recall the last time I saw an inkling of it.

no actually it's legal, no special privilege needed so I'm good with that

All this does is prove my point; in this case you think one gender deserves a unique exemption where they can kill another human being - innocent, healthy, incapable of harming anyone else - in aggression.

as long as they are following your belief structure and your rules

I don't care what people believe; your belief is your business. When folks start killing other human beings without just cause I want them locked up.