Abortion Statistics and Thoughts [W:59]

[Dittohead not!]

So, this thread has degenerated into a tedious pissing contest. That's too bad. Abortion is an interesting subject. Let's see if I can somehow inject some new life into it:

Getting away from the endless discussion over whether having an abortion is immoral, who gets to decide whether or not it is acceptable? Since no one seems willing to say that abortion is always wrong regardless of the reason (which has an interesting twist for those who say that abortion is murder. Under what circumstances is infanticide acceptable?), who gets to decide what the acceptable reasons are?

Should it be the government?

Or am I wrong? Is abortion always wrong, regardless of the reason?

 

[AGENT J]

I'm not the one who quoted a post based on medical advancement and called it opinion. But you keep telling yourself that, LMAO. I'm sure you even believe it now. Delusion can be such a wonderful thing, no? Enjoy your grandeur, nothing you can say will change reality. LMAO

i though you were done? :laughat:

I agree nothing will change the facts or reality And the reality is what I called opinion was what I called opinion from the very first post between us. LOL You calling most abortions convenience is nothing more than opinion. Thats what I called opinion. Then you made a couple long meaningless posts with a mixture of random and irrelevant facts about why you feel it is convenience. Then I again repeated, still just your opinion. LMAO

Then you became knee-jerk, upset and illogically assumed i meant every single word you said which is beyond funny and makes no sense. Its ok, its your mistake :shrug:

 

[AGENT J]

So, this thread has degenerated into a tedious pissing contest. That's too bad. Abortion is an interesting subject. Let's see if I can somehow inject some new life into it:

Getting away from the endless discussion over whether having an abortion is immoral, who gets to decide whether or not it is acceptable? Since no one seems willing to say that abortion is always wrong regardless of the reason (which has an interesting twist for those who say that abortion is murder. Under what circumstances is infanticide acceptable?), who gets to decide what the acceptable reasons are?

Should it be the government?

Or am I wrong? Is abortion always wrong, regardless of the reason?

of course it not always wrong because thats just an opinion.

I support choice because we cant give equal rights to the mother and the ZEF at the same time, its impossible. So for me of course I choose the already born viable women who is also a citizen over the unknown.

 

[Ikari]

of course it not always wrong because thats just an opinion.

I support choice because we cant give equal rights to the mother and the ZEF at the same time, its impossible. So for me of course I choose the already born viable women who is also a citizen over the unknown.

And if it is between the life of the mother and the life of the ZEF, I would agree. Yet all that which you are willing to dismiss as opinion comes and bites you again. The majority of pregnancies do not end in death of either mother nor baby. Some of our worst fatality rates in pregnancy date back to the very beginning where it was 1/3. 1 in every 3 women would die in child birth. That is to say 2/3, or the majority, did not die. Not to say that's something to herald. I am more than pleased with the advancement of medical technology and science that has allowed us to lower that significantly, significantly. Not zero, and until it is we should continue to push and refine our science. But at some of its worst, it was not over half.

Ergo, giving equal rights to the mother and ZEF at the same time is impossible. As such for equal rights, goes the mother other than that, nominal hierarchy applies. And in that hierarchy, Life is at the top.

 

[Bodi]

So, this thread has degenerated into a tedious pissing contest. That's too bad. Abortion is an interesting subject. Let's see if I can somehow inject some new life into it:

Getting away from the endless discussion over whether having an abortion is immoral, who gets to decide whether or not it is acceptable? Since no one seems willing to say that abortion is always wrong regardless of the reason (which has an interesting twist for those who say that abortion is murder. Under what circumstances is infanticide acceptable?), who gets to decide what the acceptable reasons are?

Should it be the government?

Or am I wrong? Is abortion always wrong, regardless of the reason?

It is not so much of a pissing contest and is more of a LMAO contest...

The issue with abortion is that the entire thing is subjective with regards to it being right or wrong. Very few have the emotional and intellectual capability or honesty to admit that it is the premeditated killing of a developing human being, and instead they wallow into the semantical cesspool of subjective rights and wrongs.

If one simply said, "it is the premeditated killing of a developing human being but I don't care because at the zygote stage the thing is so undeveloped that I think that it is fine" then they would have my respect for being honest.

Who gets to decide? Ultimately the individual woman AND the man should decide together... I know women hate to give that control away, and to a degree they should hate that, but the fact is that human sex leads to pregnancy in many cases. If the man gets no say then I say that the woman has to remain pregnant. IF the man gets a say then so should she.

I am tired and taking a break from the **** going on here, hope that made sense...

 

[Dittohead not!]

Who gets to decide? Ultimately the individual woman AND the man should decide together... I know women hate to give that control away, and to a degree they should hate that, but the fact is that human sex leads to pregnancy in many cases. If the man gets no say then I say that the woman has to remain pregnant. IF the man gets a say then so should she.

My position exactly. The woman and man (if known) along with a doctor perhaps should make the decision. The government should not make the decision.

Where in the Constitution does the government have the right to decide whether a fetus may or may not be aborted anyway?

 

[AGENT J]

And if it is between the life of the mother and the life of the ZEF, I would agree. Yet all that which you are willing to dismiss as opinion comes and bites you again. The majority of pregnancies do not end in death of either mother nor baby. Some of our worst fatality rates in pregnancy date back to the very beginning where it was 1/3. 1 in every 3 women would die in child birth. That is to say 2/3, or the majority, did not die. Not to say that's something to herald. I am more than pleased with the advancement of medical technology and science that has allowed us to lower that significantly, significantly. Not zero, and until it is we should continue to push and refine our science. But at some of its worst, it was not over half.

Ergo, giving equal rights to the mother and ZEF at the same time is impossible. As such for equal rights, goes the mother other than that, nominal hierarchy applies. And in that hierarchy, Life is at the top.

nothing bite mes at all :shrug:

doesnt matter to me one bit that the majority of births dont end in death for the mom, its meaningless

cant condone forcing the women to risk it against her will, i never will

Life in this situation cant be at top stats cant make that happen nor can an opinion of nominal hierarchy

one life has to be chosen to have more rights and I go with the already born viable one that is a citizen VS one that is unknown

 

[minnie616]

That is even worse... or at least it seems that way to me. Sorry to hear that.

You have four kids though? Good and healthy I hope...

The miscarrige was a nighmare , but lucky for me my body went into early labor to expel it before I became
aware that the fetus had died in my womb.
I learned when I went to the ER hoping to stop the early labor that the fetus had died.
It is because of my experience that I fully support late term abortions in the cases where the fetus has died inside the womb or where the fetus is so malformed that it will either be stillborn or only live a minutes or hours.

The experience I went through at about 20 weeks gestation was devasting to me.
I cannot even image having to carry a dead fetus for a week or up to 6 weeks if labor did start right away.

Yes, I have 4 wonderful grown children.
They are all pretty healthy.

Thank-you for asking and caring.

 

[minnie616]

Sorry to those that read my out of character harsh words in the Abortions: Why thread.

Two of my students and a fellow instructor died yesterday earlier in the day.

I am sorry for the loss of your students and fellow nstructor.
You and their families and friends are in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[minnie616]

hmmm i read some of you stuff yesterday we were even "liking" eachother. I must have missed the harsh words.

sorry about your loses, stuff like that is never easy. I lost a younger friend just last week, he was 34

Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend Objective-J.

You and his family and friends are also in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[AGENT J]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend Objective-J.

You and his family and friends are also in my thoughts and prayers.

thanks minnie thats appreciated. Yeah it was bad news to hear, just 34, found dead by his mom, she hadnt heard from him so stop by.

 

[choiceone]

Sigh, if there is a connotative difference in those two phrases--"killing" and "causing death," then neither is plain English.

[Second, this is not particularly personal.]

The heck it's not. You said, "But you don't like to pay attention to details..." in a post to me. This is why I posted back that I don't appreciate your making this personal when you don't know anything about me.

Now I say take ownership of what you wrote and don't try to dissemble.

1. In law, there is a difference between killing and causing death. Killing is murder or manslaughter. Causing death can be negligent homicide. Do I think neither phrase is plain English? Both are plain English, but they are not without connotative difference.

2. If you think it's personal, fine. I may not know you, but judging from your posts, you share in the tendency not to pay attention to details regarding the topic of embryos, pregnancy, and abortion.

I own it. OK?

 

[choiceone]

Sorry to those that read my out of character harsh words in the Abortions: Why thread.

Two of my students and a fellow instructor died yesterday earlier in the day.

I am so sorry. This is a terrible tragedy. I lost a student quite a few years ago now, and I know what grief that brings. Please accept my sympathy.

 

[choiceone]

My position exactly. The woman and man (if known) along with a doctor perhaps should make the decision. The government should not make the decision.

Where in the Constitution does the government have the right to decide whether a fetus may or may not be aborted anyway?

I don't understand the rationale for the man having a say. Wanna give it to a rapist, too? Seriously, since the man is taking no risk with his body and his life, since he is going to feel no pain and have no bodily damage, why would you give him a say?

 

[OKgrannie]

I don't understand the rationale for the man having a say. Wanna give it to a rapist, too? Seriously, since the man is taking no risk with his body and his life, since he is going to feel no pain and have no bodily damage, why would you give him a say?

Giving him a "say" is fine, let him vent all he wants. Giving him veto power is another thing altogether.

 

[Ikari]

I don't understand the rationale for the man having a say. Wanna give it to a rapist, too? Seriously, since the man is taking no risk with his body and his life, since he is going to feel no pain and have no bodily damage, why would you give him a say?

While there are certainly risks to pregnancy, how many are truly a threat to one's life? It's certainly not zero, there are deaths due to complications of pregnancy. But it's not 100% either. If the mother's life is not at risk, is it fair to say she can snuff out the life she carries? I don't know, I have a hard time seeing humans innately as property.

 

[minnie616]

thanks minnie thats appreciated. Yeah it was bad news to hear, just 34, found dead by his mom, she hadnt heard from him so stop by.

How tragic.
He was so young.

 

[Ikari]

How tragic.
He was so young.

How is it any more tragic than any other loss of life? We’ve all lost people in our lives, my mother died when I was a kid, had a great friend in college kill himself, my best friend in the world died at 27. Life comes and life goes, we all live and die. But this is more to the point, yes? I am forever grateful that I met Ben, 27 years is unfortunately short, but for 27 years he got to live. For 9 of those years I got to know him.

Life is fragile, it is delicate, it is precious and worthwhile. We mourn those who have come and gone, but they lived and in living have affected us and others around them. And in a moments breadth it can all be ripped away, unfairly and tragically taken. And with all these loss dynamics with which the frailty of life is exposed and crushed upon the rocks of reality we talk of adding to it. Or more so of robbing life of even its moment, its chance to be to feel and experience to make others happy or sad, to live and to die.

Loss of life is tragic; the loss of any human life is tragic. Life is a precious commodity to be respected and revered, not trivialized and disposed of at whim.

 

[Dittohead not!]

I don't understand the rationale for the man having a say. Wanna give it to a rapist, too? Seriously, since the man is taking no risk with his body and his life, since he is going to feel no pain and have no bodily damage, why would you give him a say?

If he's a rapist, then no, of course not. If he's the husband, then he has a stake in the decision, don't you think?

 

[AGENT J]

How tragic.
He was so young.

Yep very, he was in the airforce and just got engaged.

Losing life so young is extra tragic, I have had it 4 times in my life time. Had a nephew that fell down steps and he was never right again and died at 10. Very tragic, he had a brother too just two years younger.

I lost a friend in a car accident in high school and I lost a friend when we were both 24, he OD on purpose, found out he was secretly abused most of his life, both also very tragic.

Yep life is extra hard sometimes but if possible we appropriate what we have, sometimes unfortunately we cant.

 

[AGENT J]

How is it any more tragic than any other loss of life? We’ve all lost people in our lives, my mother died when I was a kid, had a great friend in college kill himself, my best friend in the world died at 27. Life comes and life goes, we all live and die. But this is more to the point, yes? I am forever grateful that I met Ben, 27 years is unfortunately short, but for 27 years he got to live. For 9 of those years I got to know him.

Life is fragile, it is delicate, it is precious and worthwhile. We mourn those who have come and gone, but they lived and in living have affected us and others around them. And in a moments breadth it can all be ripped away, unfairly and tragically taken. And with all these loss dynamics with which the frailty of life is exposed and crushed upon the rocks of reality we talk of adding to it. Or more so of robbing life of even its moment, its chance to be to feel and experience to make others happy or sad, to live and to die.

Loss of life is tragic; the loss of any human life is tragic. Life is a precious commodity to be respected and revered, not trivialized and disposed of at whim.

I dont understand these parts?
whos talking about adding to it or robbing it?
whos talking about trivializing it or disposing it at a whim.

Me and Minnie certainly havent?

maybe you were just making a statement in general, and in general I agree with it. Except I do find certain deaths of people more tragic than others, the majority are all deaths of people are tragic but some are extra tragic and some not at all.

 

[AGENT J]

If he's a rapist, then no, of course not. If he's the husband, then he has a stake in the decision, don't you think?

He most certainly has stake

I think a respectable person at least ASKS the man his opinion and she takes it into consideration but its still her decision.

 

[minnie616]

How is it any more tragic than any other loss of life?..

I could feel Objective-J's pain of the loss of his friend when I read his post and I knew the loss was tragic to him ( and to me because I have empathy).
I was trying to comfort him and let him know I understood how tragic it was to him to lose a friend in his 30's.

Most of us have lost loved ones and many can relate and underrstand what others who lose loved ones are going through.

I lost a cousin who was in his 30's when I was about 20. He was a young father who had a wife and 4 children under the age 5 (they had a set of twins). He was also the father of the SIDS baby I mentioned in another post who died at age 3 months.

When I heard about Objective-J's friend dying at age 34 I related how tragic it is to lose a loved one whose life was cut short when they are only in their 30's.

 

[D-tron]

Is lesbianism immoral? I don't recall ever reading in the Bible a passage that clearly forbade it. I thought the Bible only commented on male homosexuality.

"Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left."- Luke, 17:35
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature."- Romans, 1:26

I was surprised to actually find these! A lot of other instances where God could be referring to lesbians in a general, homosexual sense is whenever the word "sodomite" is used.

The Bible does, however, put a lot more emphasis on "man laying with mankind."

 

[D-tron]

It's not as plain as you may think.
When those great words were written, "all men" did not mean "all mankind", as I'm sure you know.
The issue is whether or not a zygote has the same rights as anyone else. That one is not settled, and probably never will be.
and the other issue is, who gets to decide?

Well, CLEARLY it should be decided by those that believe that a zygote equals a person.