Abortion Statistics and Thoughts [W:59]

[Ikari]

t was that simplistic the human life of the mother is at risk also :shrug:

There certainly is, a lot less than used to be, but there are still dangers. It must be weighed out, but in the end the vast majority of pregnancies do not end in death for the woman (not to say that none would). Though in such medical states, there is legitimate call for abortion. But normal probabilities taken instead of the edge of distribution, medical technology has made it a lot safer and most women are going to make it with little consequence. In the case in which the moms life is not threatened in such manner, abortion is the destruction of human life for the convenience of the mother.

 

[JayDubya]

Ever the pro-choice idealogue. :roll:

Since you quoted it and made me suffer, I may as well respond to something stupid it said.

The Nazis didn't feel bad about the Jews slaughter because there wasn't a person there to feel bad for. Their courts made sure of that.

We can and do criticize this action - the Holocaust - because innocent human beings were being killed in aggression of their natural human rights... but persons certainly weren't being killed in violation of the laws of their country.

 

[JayDubya]

Barring legitimate medical concerns, abortion is selfish.

Goes beyond mere selfishness.

Following one's own rational self-interest is moral, understandable, and to be expected; crossing the line and hurting others for personal gain is destructive selfishness.

 

[AGENT J]

Same organism, different level of development. We can all extrapolate back our existence to the moment of our conception.

and? I still dont feel bad for the zygote and never will? LMAO

theres zygotes in test tubes right now I dont feel bad for them

there are zygotes that get flushed naturally I don't feel bad for them

I also dont feel bad for the sperm I release or the eggs my GF releases

I dont feel bad for the embryo that my sister miscarried, I felt bad for her though and her husband

I DO feel bad for the the cousin I lost during/after birth that was strangled by the cord

I dont understand what your point is.

If you "feel" differently thats fine, I do not :shrug: LMAO

 

[AGENT J]

There certainly is, a lot less than used to be, but there are still dangers. It must be weighed out, but in the end the vast majority of pregnancies do not end in death for the woman (not to say that none would). Though in such medical states, there is legitimate call for abortion. But normal probabilities taken instead of the edge of distribution, medical technology has made it a lot safer and most women are going to make it with little consequence. In the case in which the moms life is not threatened in such manner, abortion is the destruction of human life for the convenience of the mother.

again, nothing more than your opinion :shrug:

and would definitely have a different light IMO if the choice was taken away.

 

[Ontologuy]

Since you quoted it and made me suffer, I may as well respond to something stupid it said.

The Nazis didn't feel bad about the Jews slaughter because there wasn't a person there to feel bad for. Their courts made sure of that.

We can and do criticize this action - the Holocaust - because innocent human beings were being killed in aggression of their natural human rights... but persons certainly weren't being killed in violation of the laws of their country.

Exactly.

The "personhood" debate is one of reglion/philosophy, not hard science, and thus whoever is in charge at the moment can subjectively and arbitrarily wisk away basic human rights in the name of their newly coded statutes.

Objective-J's appeal to his arbitrary and subjective opinion that "if they aren't 'persons', they can be slaughtered, and I say they aren't", sets himself up as judge, jury, and executioner, much like the NAZI's did in the 1940s with their ideological rubber-stamp "courts".

'Tis truly sad .. and very scary.

 

[ChrisL]

I wonder what people would think if a woman said that she wanted to have an abortion because she didn't want the pregnancy to ruin her body. I'm thinking that there are probably some selfish witches out there who would actually abort a baby for THAT reason. Do you think THAT is a selfish reason?

 

[AGENT J]

Since you quoted it and made me suffer, I may as well respond to something stupid it said.

The Nazis didn't feel bad about the Jews slaughter because there wasn't a person there to feel bad for. Their courts made sure of that.

We can and do criticize this action - the Holocaust - because innocent human beings were being killed in aggression of their natural human rights... but persons certainly weren't being killed in violation of the laws of their country.

LMAO

not even close to the same thing to anybody rational LOL

mendacious uneducated banter on this subject like you just stated doesnt work on anybody honest, objective and logical.

Holocaust vs abortion :lamo

 

[choiceone]

Because it is, clearly.

It was an emotionally detached denialistic ideological presentation that was simply, thereby, all of those things.



:roll:

Okay, you're not a conservative, so don't ever criticize one.

You're not a man, so don't ever wax derogatorily about men.

You're also not a ZEF, so don't ever imagine about what a ZEF experiences or about how killing a ZEF is no big deal.

In fact, if there's anything at all that you "aren't", keep quiet about it, as "you are incapable of imagining what it is like to be" that.

The difference is that I don't seek to control by law the inside of the body of any conservative or man or to force a conservative or man to use his/her own body and life for behavior he/she believes to be morally wrong and to violate his/her conscience and I don't seek to do anything to a ZEF. I merely want the women whose bodies encompass ZEFs to be allowed to prevent those ZEFs from residing inside them or being biologically attached to them against the will, conscience, and freedom of religion, etc., of those women. And FYI, ZEs cannot have any experiences because they do not have the biological equipment to have them, and neither do pre-viable fetuses.

:roll:

Have I made my point?

I hope so.



"Control, control, control!"

Clearly you have unresolved controlled-by issues that you're obviously projecting all over the top of "the woman" in the abortion debate.

If someone controllingly attempted to extort you if you didn't kill someone's one-year-old, would you do so, would you kill that child, to avoid being controlled?

That's essentially your argument topically, that a woman is being controlled-by society and the law, and thus, to avoid so being controlled-by it, she should kill her prenatal offspring, the human inside her.

:roll:

Seriously, you're unresolved issues are directed at the wrong target.

You say I have unresolved controlled-by issues, but the fact is that the majority of pro-choice people, and particularly pro-choice women and girls, have exactly the same control issue. Women and girls want the inside of their own bodies and their own lives to be under their own control and not anyone else's. They are, by and large, outraged that people like you want to use the law to control their internal sex organs against their will and conscience. Why do you think so many well educated women divorce their husbands and so many single women do not want to get married any more? It's because they want to control their own bodies and not get into or stay in relations of sharing their bodies and part of their sex organs on a long-term legal contractual basis because that privilege can be abused.

They do not want their bodies controlled by mindless entities such as ZEFs and they do not want the government to be used to control their sex organs. They have testified to this in protests all over the US - Virginia, Illinois, Oklahoma, Texas - name the state, and you'll find women there who are completely outraged that people like you are trying to abuse the law to control their sex organs against their will.

I do not believe that a ZEF is equal to a one-year-old, and I would never kill a one-year-old for any reason whatsoever, but a one-year-old would never be inside some person's sex organs. Anyone whose body is inside a woman's sex organs against her will and/or conscience and stays there by physical force is no different from a rapist, who has some of his/her body inside some person's sex organs against his/her will and/or conscience. Anyone being raped has the right to use lethal force to stop the rape and anyone whose sex organs are physically forced to contain any body or body part against his/her will and/or conscience has the right to use lethal force to stop that.

You bet it's about control. Every pro-choice girl and woman understands that she has the right to prevent anyone, male or female, born or unborn, from being inside her sex organs and to kick out anyone inside there.

 

[Ikari]

and? I still dont feel bad for the zygote and never will? LMAO

theres zygotes in test tubes right now I dont feel bad for them

there are zygotes that get flushed naturally I don't feel bad for them

I also dont feel bad for the sperm I release or the eggs my GF releases

I dont feel bad for the embryo that my sister miscarried, I felt bad for her though and her husband

I DO feel bad for the the cousin I lost during/after birth that was strangled by the cord

I dont understand what your point is.

If you "feel" differently thats fine, I do not :shrug: LMAO

You don't understand because you choose not to understand, it's not beyond your capabilities. LMAO

Some of y'all choose to view reproduction in snap shots because it then becomes easier to excuse force. LMAO But biology is a continually evolving system, not one of snap shots. LMAO Left to its own devices, many fetuses will develop into healthy, fully functioning human beings LMAO In order to remove guilt from the picture, the developing human must be dehumanized LMAO. To do that, the standard method is to snap shot development and pretend that the fetus is not human life, that rather through some miracle of alchemy it transmutes into human magically at some point after which you want to kill it LMAO. It's not how biology works and anyone with enough understanding in science could tell you so LMAO. It's not magic, it's not alchemy, it's not a mystery; human reproduction is well understood at this point LMAO. While you may want to pretend that the fetus is not a human life, that it's something less than human merely because it's in an earlier stage of development, is an argument of convenience and one used not only to morally excuse the force being taken, but also to remove feelings of guilt. LMAO. But the fact remains, each and every one of us can trace our existence and beginning to conception, that is when we were made and everything we'd ever be was encoded. LMAO. To ignore that is just dismissal of convenience. LMAO

Did I remember to state LMAO? Since we're children and all.

 

[AGENT J]

Exactly.

The "personhood" debate is one of reglion/philosophy, not hard science, and thus whoever is in charge at the moment can subjectively and arbitrarily wisk away basic human rights in the name of their newly coded statutes.

Objective-J's appeal to his arbitrary and subjective opinion that "if they aren't 'persons', they can be slaughtered, and I say they aren't", sets himself up as judge, jury, and executioner, much like the NAZI's did in the 1940s with their ideological rubber-stamp "courts".

'Tis truly sad .. and very scary.

since you like it so much for the record you just lied AGAIN LMAO

who said "if they aren't 'persons', they can be slaughtered, and I say they aren't" LMAO

wow, this is a bold face lie as NOBODY SAID that :laughat:

I love how you just make things up, its very funny, another example as why nobody respect posters take you seriously

 

[Ikari]

again, nothing more than your opinion :shrug:

and would definitely have a different light IMO if the choice was taken away.

Medical technology having advanced and alleviating many of the dangers associated with pregnancy is an opinion huh? LMAO

 

[Ontologuy]

since you like it so much for the record you just lied AGAIN LMAO

who said "if they aren't 'persons', they can be slaughtered, and I say they aren't" LMAO

wow, this is a bold face lie as NOBODY SAID that :laughat:

I love how you just make things up, its very funny, another example as why nobody respect posters take you seriously

C'mon, Objective-J, there's four of us right now calling you on your inconsistences, contradictions and absolute, well, you know's. :lol:

You just said a ZEF isn't "a person".

And you've used that ageistic bigoted excuse for abortion on demand, abortion, the killing of living prenatal humans, "because since they aren't persons it's okay".

We all saw you, we all read it throughout this thread, so running now is foolish because you can't hide from us all.

Denial at this point is futile.

Surely you're not going to respond that a ZEF isn't a human here, are you, as well?! :lol:

 

[AGENT J]

You don't understand because you choose not to understand, it's not beyond your capabilities. LMAO

Some of y'all choose to view reproduction in snap shots because it then becomes easier to excuse force. LMAO But biology is a continually evolving system, not one of snap shots. LMAO Left to its own devices, many fetuses will develop into healthy, fully functioning human beings LMAO In order to remove guilt from the picture, the developing human must be dehumanized LMAO. To do that, the standard method is to snap shot development and pretend that the fetus is not human life, that rather through some miracle of alchemy it transmutes into human magically at some point after which you want to kill it LMAO. It's not how biology works and anyone with enough understanding in science could tell you so LMAO. It's not magic, it's not alchemy, it's not a mystery; human reproduction is well understood at this point LMAO. While you may want to pretend that the fetus is not a human life, that it's something less than human merely because it's in an earlier stage of development, is an argument of convenience and one used not only to morally excuse the force being taken, but also to remove feelings of guilt. LMAO. But the fact remains, each and every one of us can trace our existence and beginning to conception, that is when we were made and everything we'd ever be was encoded. LMAO. To ignore that is just dismissal of convenience. LMAO

Did I remember to state LMAO? Since we're children and all.

LMAO I can almost hear you punching your keyboard, its funny when you get angry. wooooo here come the failed insults because you have no logical path to take.

SUch a long post full of meaningless points, opinions and facts that add up to NOTHING that effects our discussion LOL

absolutely nothing

lets see I read your post and guess what, I understand it, I understand that some of it, (the parts that we are actually talking about and not your meaningless random filler points that are worthless ot the discussion lol) are nothing more than your opinion :shrug:

also you lied in your post, I never said a ZEF isnt human, it is in fact human and during abortion which ends pregnancy typically it is in fact killed, never denied that

but saying its for convenience or that I should feel bad for the zygote is nothing more than your opinion LMAO

sorry this fact bothers you but the facts not care about your opinion or your personal emotions :shrug: facts are just facts

let me know what YOU dont understand LOL

 

[choiceone]

The straight honest truth, unfiltered by any ideology, left or right.



Your fellow pro-choicer's talk was based on ideology projected on top of "her family" to create a faux scenario.

It, thereby was theoretical talk! :shock:

You're just a typical hypocritical anti-choice person who pretends you are not ideological but people who disagree with you are ideologically driven. The possibility that this is, for women, a genuine issue about keeping control over their own sex organs and other internal organs and bodies, and that this is, for pro-choice men, an issue of recognizing that every person should be able to keep control over his/her own sex organs and other internal organs and bodies, completely passes you by. And that means you have the mentality of a rapist, whether you think so or not, because trying to control others' sex organs and bodies against their will and conscience is trying to control others' sex organs and bodies by raw power, and it's a very ugly mentality.

 

[AGENT J]

Medical technology having advanced and alleviating many of the dangers associated with pregnancy is an opinion huh? LMAO

wow another dishonest post

did I call that an opinion? nope the topic that we were discussing is that the mothers life is also at risk, this is true no matter what else you try to add to the discussion :shrug:

 

[JayDubya]

Did I remember to state LMAO? Since we're children and all.

You did. You did not remember to :fart.

When responding to it, always :fart.

C'mon, Objective-J, there's four of us right now calling you on your inconsistences, contradictions and absolute, well, you know's. :lol:

*Insert sputtering, passive aggressive insults about lack of objectivity or rationality here*

 

[Ikari]

LMAO I can almost hear you punching your keyboard, its funny when you get angry. wooooo here come the failed insults because you have no logical path to take.

SUch a long post full of meaningless points, opinions and facts that add up to NOTHING that effects our discussion LOL

absolutely nothing

lets see I read your post and guess what, I understand it, I understand that some of it, (the parts that we are actually talking about and not your meaningless random filler points that are worthless ot the discussion lol) are nothing more than your opinion :shrug:

also you lied in your post, I never said a ZEF isnt human, it is in fact human and during abortion which ends pregnancy typically it is in fact killed, never denied that

but saying its for convenience or that I should feel bad for the zygote is nothing more than your opinion LMAO

sorry this fact bothers you but the facts not care about your opinion or your personal emotions :shrug: facts are just facts

let me know what YOU dont understand LOL

Awww, you mad bro? All that dismissal and little faces and LMAO, is that as much as you can put together for an argument? Perchance I overstated in my general use of "you" and should have instead wrote "one", but that's about it. Everything else is factually correct. Your opinions cannot change science, sorry bro.

 

[Ikari]

wow another dishonest post

did I call that an opinion?

Yes, yes you did

again, nothing more than your opinion :shrug:

and would definitely have a different light IMO if the choice was taken away.

If you're going to contradict yourself, please try to wait a few pages so that it becomes harder for another to demonstrate your contradiction.

 

[Ikari]

You did. You did not remember to :fart.

When responding to it, always :fart.

That's Childish Arguments 320, I'm not quite that advanced there; but I'm learning.

 

[AGENT J]

C'mon, Objective-J, there's four of us right now calling you on your inconsistences, contradictions and absolute, well, you know's.

You just said a ZEF isn't "a person".

And you've used that ageistic bigoted excuse for abortion on demand, abortion, the killing of living prenatal humans, "because since they aren't persons it's okay".

We all saw you, we all read it throughout this thread, so running now is foolish because you can't hide from us all.

Denial at this point is futile.

Surely you're not going to respond that a ZEF isn't a human here, are you, as well?! :lol:

translation: you cant defend you lie so now you are deflecting

please show me where I said ""if they aren't 'persons', they can be slaughtered, and I say they aren't"

im waiting

after you do that please point out my "the four posters point out my inconsistencies, contradictions and absolute, well, you knows' and also point out my " my inconsistencies, contradictions and absolute, well, you knows"

ill be waiting for that too, as matter of fact I pry you do this because it will be so much fun exposing you!!

again all it takes to expose you is facts and asking you to produce factual logical support fo anything you say, it leases you lost and beaten everytime :laughat:


just so you dont forget

shoe me where I said ""if they aren't 'persons', they can be slaughtered, and I say they aren't"
shoe me the "4 posters calling me on my inconsistencies, contradictions and absolute, well, you know's."
point out my "inconsistencies, contradictions and absolute, well, you know's."

also lets add

show me factual proof that prochoice people are bigoted ageist


opcorn2:

 

[AGENT J]

Awww, you mad bro? All that dismissal and little faces and LMAO, is that as much as you can put together for an argument? Perchance I overstated in my general use of "you" and should have instead wrote "one", but that's about it. Everything else is factually correct. Your opinions cannot change science, sorry bro.

LMAO why would I be mad, im speaking the truth and you dont like it.

so then you tried a failed insult then flew off the handle on some emotional rant and I pointed it out

again you are lying what I called opinion is in fact your opinion.

what based in science did you say that I called an opinion? thats right NOTHING thats a lie :laughat:

its your opinion what is convenience and its your opinion that I should feel bad for a zygote, thats the discussion the rest if deflection by you :shrug:

I never called anything else opinion LMAO

nice try but its a huge failure and very funny and dishonest deflection

it liberality makes me laugh out loud that you could even try to be that dishonest.

sorry your opinion will never be anything more than opinion

 

[choiceone]

Heh heh -- oops, you've made another error there, old man. :lol:

Is senility catching up to you? I hope not .. because I'm right behind you there :shock: .. and I shudder at the thought.

Anyway .. the term "human" and "human being" are, of course, two different things, the former being a hard-science-based term and the latter a religious/philosophical term.

Thus there is no analogy, as you've erroneously implied, between "tree" and "human being".

The correct analogy is acorn is to zygote as tree is to child (or teen or adult, depending on the age of the tree).

Or, in long form, an oak acorn is to a human zygote as an oak tree is to a human child (or teen or adult depending on the age of the tree).

And the analogies I present are true because they stay within the hard science realm of the premise.

In the basic college prep quiz can you therefore pick out the term that doesn't belong: 1) zygote, 2) tree, 3) human being, 4) oak, 5) adult, 6) acorn, 7) human.

That's right, it's really very easy: 3) human being is the term that doesn't belong, as it's the only religious/philosophical term, the rest being hard-science in origin.

Again, hope that clears it up for you .. and stop scaring me so much!

It is just as legitimate logically to make the analogy an acorn is to a tree as a human zygote is to a newborn, since not all trees are oak trees and not all newborns are humans, or an acorn is to an oak tree as a human zygote is to a newborn human.

And I question whether you can argue that the expression human being is only a religious or philosophical term, because anthropologists use the noun "human" and the noun "human being," but use them as not interchangeable. For example, if an anthropologist is going to talk about a purely biological or biosocial or biocultural human individual, the word "being" is typically not used, whereas if he/she is going to talk about the cultural human individual, the word "being" is often used. Its the difference between being primarily biological or being culturally significant, but that is not about mere philosophy, because the study of culture is also encompassed by anthropology as a science.

 

[AGENT J]

Yes, yes you did



If you're going to contradict yourself, please try to wait a few pages so that it becomes harder for another to demonstrate your contradiction.

100% wrong and a lie

I called you calling it a convenience your opinion

again nice try, HUGE failure :lamo

 

[choiceone]

That's just science and can be done if researched. Until then, we'll just have to reproduce the old fashioned way. I don't understand why some people think the laws of biology are mutable, the laws of physics sure aren't.

Actually, we won't "have to" "reproduce the old fashioned way," because no one "has to" reproduce.