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Abortion is NOT murder

kerussll said:
Yes, I do think people deserve to be protected and that is my morality. But I don't look to my moral code to decide what I think should be law. I myself don't get to decide what is law. Society does, and society acts in its best interest as a whole.
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Based on societal values, aka, morals. You're just wrong, dude.
 
kerussll said:
Yes, I do think people deserve to be protected and that is my morality. But I don't look to my moral code to decide what I think should be law. I myself don't get to decide what is law. Society does, and society acts in its best interest as a whole.
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So if society became morally bankrupt and manifested laws based on their majority views then you'd use that as your beacon?
 
Wake said:
So if society became morally bankrupt and manifested laws based on their majority views then you'd use that as your beacon?
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Fortunately, modern society is one of, if not the, most moral ever to exist in this world. And becoming more moral as time goes on. We get outraged at atrocities that used to be commonplace. We fight over and over to actually live up to the notion that all people are created equal. We are cleaner than previous societies. We strive to be more empathetic. Imagine how moral we will be in another few hundred years. Perhaps war, bigotry, poverty, and starvation will be gone...
 
mac said:
Based on societal values, aka, morals. You're just wrong, dude.
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I'm not a dude. You're just not gonna get this. Society acting in its best interest is not morality. It's selfishness.
 
Wake said:
So if society became morally bankrupt and manifested laws based on their majority views then you'd use that as your beacon?
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If society became morally bankrupt, the laws wouldn't change. And neither would my ideals about what should be laws.
 
kerussll said:
I'm not a dude. You're just not gonna get this. Society acting in its best interest is not morality. It's selfishness.
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No, it's you that doesn't get it. The simple idea that society and it's people deserve protecting is a moral. You are, of course, completely wrong and have a limited view and understanding of ethics.
 
kerussll said:
No, it's a self-serving opinion. I am part of society and I want to be protected. Other do too. That's not morality, but that doesn't make it any less important.

The immoral yet legal things are legal because it would be insane to try to outlaw them. How would you try to enforce a law against lying? Or cheating on your spouse? It's just as ridiculous as trying to tell someone they must keep something in their body against their will. People do have different moral values, and trying to enforce one set over another, which offers no protection to society just doesn't make sense.
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You didn't read my post, did you?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/82958-abortion-not-murder-15.html#post1059173849
 
mac said:
No, it's you that doesn't get it. The simple idea that society and it's people deserve protecting is a moral. You are, of course, completely wrong and have a limited view and understanding of ethics.
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Are you seriously this dense? Yes, of course that is a moral! I have said that. What I'm saying is, that's not where our laws come from. I get that you don't agree with me, and I can't explain this any clearer so let's just leave it at that.
 
Bodhisattva said:
You didn't read my post, did you?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/82958-abortion-not-murder-15.html#post1059173849
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I did actually. What, did you assume I could never write something to the contrary after reading your mind-blowing post? ;) How cute.

I do agree that both morals and selfishness contribute to our laws. I just don't buy that it's primarily morals that help us decide our laws. We do have laws that are based almost exclusively on morality. Take for example animal cruelty laws. Animals aren't part of society, so society has no direct benefit from them being protected. But these are a small minority of our laws. I support laws against murder, theft, and rape because I don't want to be murdered, stolen from, or raped.

I have no problem with laws that are created from a combination of morality and a desire to protect society. I do have a big problem with most laws that are created from a purely "moral" standpoint. That's how you get retarded laws criminalizing oral sex, homosexuality, and interracial marriage just to name a few.
 
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kerussll said:
Are you seriously this dense? Yes, of course that is a moral! I have said that. What I'm saying is, that's not where our laws come from. I get that you don't agree with me, and I can't explain this any clearer so let's just leave it at that.
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You are absolutely and profoundly wrong. Any professor of law or ethics, any lawyer or judge, would tell you that. Laws are based on societal values/morals. That IS where they come from.
 
kerussll said:
did you assume I could never write something to the contrary

I do agree that both morals and selfishness contribute to our laws.
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There is a SERIOUS disconnect going on here... no offense intended, but do you not see the major contradiction?
 
mac said:
You are absolutely and profoundly wrong. Any professor of law or ethics, any lawyer or judge, would tell you that. Laws are based on societal values/morals. That IS where they come from.
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Exacta-mundo!
 
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Bodhisattva said:
There is a SERIOUS disconnect going on here... no offense intended, but do you not see the major contradiction?
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No, I don't. Did you read MY post? The part where I disagree with you? i.e. write something to the contrary like I said?
 
kerussll said:
No, I don't. Did you read MY post? The part where I disagree with you? i.e. write something to the contrary like I said?
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I can see you don't... you disagree and write something to the contrary but you agree and write so. Like I said, disconnect.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I can see you don't... you disagree and write something to the contrary but you agree and write so. Like I said, disconnect.
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Or so confused by irrational idealism that cognitive abilities have been severely hampered.
 
mac said:
Or so confused by irrational idealism that cognitive abilities have been severely hampered.
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I am not saying that kerussll is this way, but I finally came to understand that my ex-wife has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) that is not officially diagnosed. I have spent lots of time researching this and have talked to psychologists and one with a PhD. She is literally unable to maintain a rational discussion most of the time, and EVERY TIME there is a disagreement. I used to get angry, but now that I understand, I don't. She can't help it. It's like getting mad at a dog when it barks.. it's what they do.
 
mac said:
You are absolutely and profoundly wrong. Any professor of law or ethics, any lawyer or judge, would tell you that. Laws are based on societal values/morals. That IS where they come from.
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That is simply not true. Laws are the means to enforce interests. In the earliest days of laws they enforced the will of the rulers and in some places they still do. In societies that enjoy self determination, they enforce the interests of said society, often protecting the few and at times immoral against the tyranny of the many who profess morality and wish to impose their version on everybody else.
 
prometeus said:
That is simply not true. Laws are the means to enforce interests. In the earliest days of laws they enforced the will of the rulers and in some places they still do. In societies that enjoy self determination, they enforce the interests of said society, often protecting the few and at times immoral against the tyranny of the many who profess morality and wish to impose their version on everybody else.
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You should probably re-read what you just wrote.
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
The problem enters when you examine "murder" not from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective. There are many people who sincerely consider any act of deliberate manslaughter, save self-defense, to be murder. There are people who believe that capital punishment and war are State-sanctioned murder. I prefer to use moral terminology myself, because no matter what the issue is, I am not discussing what the law is but what I feel the law should be.

I don't expect pro-lifers to behave any differently. The only thing I ask is that they stay calm and polite and not get so self-righteous about it. If their moral opinions were that much better than mine, they wouldn't be as controversial as they are.
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Murder is purely a legal term, otherwise it would be just killing.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am not saying that kerussll is this way, but I finally came to understand that my ex-wife has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) that is not officially diagnosed. I have spent lots of time researching this and have talked to psychologists and one with a PhD. She is literally unable to maintain a rational discussion most of the time, and EVERY TIME there is a disagreement. I used to get angry, but now that I understand, I don't. She can't help it. It's like getting mad at a dog when it barks.. it's what they do.
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Thanks for the concern, Bod ;) I have no mental illness whatsoever.
 
kerussll said:
Thanks for the concern, Bod ;) I have no mental illness whatsoever.
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You were gone for so long I thought that maybe they had locked you up... whew!
Glad to hear it, you are now on my "Has a chance to marry Bodi" list. ;)
 
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