Abortion is murder

[blastula]

Prove it. Prove that a Homo sapiens in kidney failure has a right to life.

You're getting beyond ridiculous. Of course a human being with kidney failure still has the right to life. Or do you think you can get away with murder by butchering his body to pieces?

 

[blastula]

And you think that is best done through falsehoods?

You're like a 5 yr old knowing nothing except crying wolf all the time. You words have no value. Nada.

 

[doughgirl]

Jallman said “Anyone else notice how saint doughgirl ran off when she was challenged to back her wild assertions up? I got things to do right now, but I will check back later...no surprise if she hasnt responded to the challenge though, hysterical lying freak that she is.”

Oh jallman I did not run off. I have a life and other things to do. I told ya I am NOT LEAVING. Obviously you don’t work and you sit by your computer to text non-stop daily. You are trying to provoke me into losing control but I will not. You are the one who is out of control and IT SHOWS. Your constant potty mouth shows your character, I don't need to show it, you do it well enough yourself.

I will say this………I have used one word to describe a person who is pro-abortion, I used the word MONSTER. If the shoe fits I say wear it.

Jallman continues to call pro-lifers especially me, doughgirl-esque basket case, hysterical liar, freak, vacant-eyed moonbat, madame psychosis, scumbag, moron, cannon fodder, radical loon and he continuously swears…….bullshit. He uses other phrases to describe others as well ...He tells jamesrage….‘You're gonna be my new pet since doughgirl broke this morning”

And I find it funny that with the exception of Bastula
not one of you think Mr. Potty Mouth is out of control. And if you do you surely do not show it. I think that says a lot about passion for the unborn child and more about how to suck up and be politically correct. If I am wrong I apologize.


Jallman talks about his God in one sentence then takes His name in vain in the next……”Oh my god...” (942#) Then he wants to tell us all what the Bible says about abortion. :rofl I would suggest he reread the Ten Commandments particularly the second one.... and what it says about using His name in vain.

Men use blasphemy to stress their point of action, thoughts and desires. They abuse the Name of God by connecting Him in a damned way or in an arrogant, sarcastic, facetious manner. Men very often swear against God to impress another man with their false strength. Men abuse the Name of God to eliminate having to face in a dignified way, truth. Also, when a man is suspicious of his own lack of integrity, stability, masculinity, he abuses God, for the cowardice within himself tells him he will not be struck down immediately......NIV Bible notes

Here you go jallman.......

You said,
“I have consistently said that abortion is not murder until personhood is a possibility in the fetus. At one time, long ago, I believed that time, based on scientific data available to me, to be 24 weeks. Based on other scientific data available to me, I moved that back to 18 weeks.” Post 972#

and next week he will be at 17 1/2 then 16 then 15 3/4.....:rofl

Jallman says,
“I am not for abortion, I am for choice."

Then he says a few sentences down....

"My support of choice is up to the 18th week of pregnancy and assumes that the fetus is not expected to become a child due to lack of ability or desire from the woman. Abortion is not a practice to be used in pursuit of a more perfect baby, but hey, if it’s done before 18 weeks, I don’t really care what the reasoning is for the woman. Not my concern. (837#)

The wind blows in ALL DIRECTIONS WITH JALLMAN.


Thank you Bastula you are the only one who has come to my defense in seeing the hateful way Jallman so describes splitting open the unborn child. Obviously it does not bother other pro-lifers. He says it with such coldness. You might not agree with my positions or the way I present them but you do see the inhumanity in a person who certainly sounds and acts like he is anything but pro-life. I have never in my life seen such hateful prochoicers.

Thank you once again. :2razz:

And that is why I will stay here on this board to tick the heck out of them...........:rofl

 

[jfuh]

Oh jallman I did not run off. I have a life and other things to do. I told ya I am NOT LEAVING. Obviously you don’t work and you sit by your computer to text non-stop daily. You are trying to provoke me into losing control but I will not. You are the one who is out of control and IT SHOWS. Your constant potty mouth shows your character, I don't need to show it, you do it well enough yourself.

I will say this………I have used one word to describe a person who is pro-abortion, I used the word MONSTER. If the shoe fits I say wear it.

Jallman continues to call pro-lifers especially me, doughgirl-esque basket case, hysterical liar, freak, vacant-eyed moonbat, madame psychosis, scumbag, moron, cannon fodder, radical loon and he continuously swears…….bullshit. He uses other phrases to describe others as well ...He tells jamesrage….‘You're gonna be my new pet since doughgirl broke this morning”

And I find it funny that with the exception of Bastula
not one of you think Mr. Potty Mouth is out of control. And if you do you surely do not show it. I think that says a lot about passion for the unborn child and more about how to suck up and be politically correct. If I am wrong I apologize.


Jallman talks about his God in one sentence then takes His name in vain in the next……”Oh my god...” (942#) Then he wants to tell us all what the Bible says about abortion. :rofl I would suggest he reread the Ten Commandments particularly the second one.... and what it says about using His name in vain.





Here you go jallman.......



and next week he will be at 17 1/2 then 16 then 15 3/4.....:rofl



Then he says a few sentences down....



The wind blows in ALL DIRECTIONS WITH JALLMAN.


Thank you Bastula you are the only one who has come to my defense in seeing the hateful way Jallman so describes splitting open the unborn child. Obviously it does not bother other pro-lifers. He says it with such coldness. You might not agree with my positions or the way I present them but you do see the inhumanity in a person who certainly sounds and acts like he is anything but pro-life. I have never in my life seen such hateful prochoicers.

Thank you once again. :2razz:

And that is why I will stay here on this board to tick the heck out of them...........:rofl

Again Doughgirl, welcome to post Roe vs Wade. Unfortunately for you and your prolife fanatics abortion is very much legal as well as a woman's right. Perhaps you should move back to the era of salem which trials.

 

[FutureIncoming]

The Golden Rule cannot apply in cases where it cannot be understood by all involved entities. We do not ask a rock whether it is OK to hack it out of a mountain, and then carve a statue out of it. We do not ask a tree if it is OK to prune it into looking like a garden ornament. We do not ask a horse if it wants to plow the field today. And we do not ask a chicken what it thinks about making a very personal contribution to dinner. So, what characteristics does an unborn human possess, that means we should always give its existence any more consideration than we do a rock or a tree or a horse or a chicken? You have yet to offer any sort of nonhypocritical or unprejudiced answer to previously-asked equivalent questions.

**ALSO**

there is no such thing in Nature as a Right To Life. Do you think that Nature cares one whit if humans stupidly built their homes in Tornado Alley, or along the San Andreas Fault? Hah! They will be killed exactly as casually by Nature, as you might swat a mosquito. "Right To Life" is a political thing that humans have arbitrarily claimed for themselves, in spite of Natural Fact. And, because it is political and arbitrary, it can be applied and withheld politically and arbitrarily. As indeed it is, since unborn humans are not granted Right To Life, while born humans are granted it. Nor do the unborn need to have it, since they totally lack the brainpower to appreciate it. On what rational, logical, and/or objective grounds can you say otherwise?

Please note that SSlightning quoted both of the above blocks of text in Msg #968, but did not offer any answers to the questions at the end of those blocks.

Meanwhile, in a different sub-Thread that described things about Artificial Intelligence:

Now remember that future manufacturing will be more and more automated. This leads us to an interesting absurdity, in that if opponents of abortion require every fetus to be allowed to automatically grow a mind, then logically they should also require Artifical Intelligences to be automatically manufactured just as soon as technically possible! The two notions really are that equivalent, and so to declare the mandatory production of AIs to be absurd is also to declare the anti-abortion stand to likewise be absurd. More specifically: Minds cannot be required to come into existence just because some of their fundamental hardware happens to exist. So, no matter what the age of a fetus, as long as its brainpower is animal-level, there is no requirement that it must continue to grow. (That would be like stating, "A Potential Must Be Fulfilled!" when anyone who makes that statement has the potential to fall down a staircase and break his or her neck.)

I would never think a machine is as important as a human.

Ah, but you are now confusing bodies with minds. An Artificial Intelligence will be a mind, and "turning off" the machine body is identical to killing it... {BIG SNIP} ...an unborn human has no more mind than that of an ordinary animal, such as a cat. Only after birth can a human grow enough brain to support the kind of capable mind that we normally associate with "persons". And there still is no requirement that this growth occur, that that potential be fulfilled.

My arguement is that the fact that it is homosapien means it has the right to live.

But that statement is not a fact, as explained in text {{COMPLETELY ENOUGH PRESENTED ABOVE}} that you quoted in Msg #968, shortly after you wrote the above sentence. Your mere claim that your statement is factual does not make it factual. Let's see the supporting evidence for your claim!

Please note that the reason I felt I could ask for such evidence was because I provided evidence and logical reasons to support the statements that I made.

Just because I dont supply you with evidence that my statement is true doesn't make it false.

So? The evidence and logic that I presented first, and am repeating above, supports my claim that your claim is indeed utterly false. That's why you can't just use mere "say so" to challenge me on these points. If you cannot offer evidence to support your claim, why should anyone believe your claim? Also note that in formal debates it is fully traditional for persons making "positive" statements to provide supporting evidence. A lawyer in a courtroom who blandly makes the positive statement (similar to what you wrote, quoted above) that all humans automatically have a right to life can be required to offer supporting evidence. We may not be debating so formally here, but you can expect to be laughed at and considered to be an idiot, and ignored, for making positive statements that you do not attempt to support.

Prove to me, that a fetus within a woman's body will not grow up to be a human, or a homo sapien a majority of the time.

Actually, if you start even earlier in the gestation process, at the zygote stage, which are fully human even then, and therefore you presumably would grant them "right to life", well, the majority of zygotes don't grow up. A significant fraction of them don't even successfully implant in the uterus. And a significant fraction of those that succeed also happen to contain genetic flaws such that they are miscarried, or end up being still-born. The survivors are actually a minority, not a majority, of the original group of zygotes, even when abortion is not a factor. I think steen may be able to offer more specific percentages, if you wish to see them. steen?

Nevertheless, it does not matter that a fetus could grow up, because its doing-so is merely, right now, is only a potential thing. Just like your ability to fall down a staircase and break your neck is only a potential thing. And merely potential things do not have to be fulfilled, as previously explained in the quoted material above. On what objective (not biased subjective) basis can you say that the potential for a fetus to grow up must be fulfilled, while your potential to break your neck must not be fulfilled?

 

[steen]

You're getting beyond ridiculous. Of course a human being with kidney failure still has the right to life. Or do you think you can get away with murder by butchering his body to pieces?

I can get away with withholding treatment so he dies, if that treatment involves my own bodily resources. That doesn't give him much "right to life."

 

[Stace]

and next week he will be at 17 1/2 then 16 then 15 3/4.....:rofl

So, basically you're saying that someone isn't allowed to change their mind when data is presented to them which contradicts their previous beliefs? I think jallman already said this, but one would think you'd be happy that he changed his mind, especially considering the direction in which he changed it.

You're being quite hypocritical with those sorts of statements. You, after all, changed YOUR mind regarding abortion, did you not? So what makes it ok for you to change yours, but not for jallman to change his?

 

[talloulou]

Again Doughgirl, welcome to post Roe vs Wade. Unfortunately for you and your prolife fanatics abortion is very much legal as well as a woman's right. Perhaps you should move back to the era of salem which trials.

Roe vs Wade is currently on shaky ground. Look at South Dakota. Laws change. And the only similarities between the salem witch trials and abortion are the wrongful misguided killings that take place along side a complacent society.

 

[talloulou]

The wind blows in ALL DIRECTIONS WITH JALLMAN.

Hey if someone moves back the gestational age at which they find abortions acceptable I consider that a step in my direction and I'm all for it. The fact that he moved from 24 to 18 wks means he's movable. We just gotta keep working on him.

 

[FutureIncoming]

To doughgirl, I posted some things a while back for which responses are still being awaited. So instead of having you hunt them down, I'll just repost them here (they were actually short!).

Here we go again with people who place animals equal to human beings. Bullcrapolla. They are not equivalent, not at all. Because if they were then you should be arrested every time you killed an animal on the highway,

BAD LOGIC. You are now comparing all humans to other animals, and I only specified comparing unborn humans to other animals. Well-developed humans are clearly non-equivalent to all ordinary animals in brainpower and the manifestations of that brainpower. But unborn humans plain and simply and measurably do not have that brainpower. There is no significant feature of an unborn human which is not matched by some ordinary animal. Therefore the question remains: On what basis can you claim that an unborn human is not equivalent to an ordinary animal? Do note that your quoted statement, about not being arrested, applies equally to abortion doctors and to highway animalcide. Because in both cases the killed organisms are indeed only animals!

**AND**

nothing wrong with emotions, most people have them.

Actually, when your emotions control you, instead of you controlling your emotions, there is indeed something wrong. Immaturity, perhaps. An actress, for example, is generally well able to control/invoke emotions as needed for the roles she plays. Just think about the re-takes of a many a scene, and how often she has to emote! So she is in charge, not the emotions. Mature, she is!

 

[blastula]

I can get away with withholding treatment so he dies, if that treatment involves my own bodily resources. That doesn't give him much "right to life."

Are you a dialysis machine? Otherwise, don't so ridiculous about your bodily resources.

Yea, some medical professionals were angels of death by withholding treatments or injecting lethal doses to hasten the death of patients in hospitals or nursing homes. But when caught they were convicted of murders.

 

[blastula]

Well doughgirl,

Just still cool and stay focus on your work. Let not your heart be troubled...

 

[jallman]

So, basically you're saying that someone isn't allowed to change their mind when data is presented to them which contradicts their previous beliefs? I think jallman already said this, but one would think you'd be happy that he changed his mind, especially considering the direction in which he changed it.

You're being quite hypocritical with those sorts of statements. You, after all, changed YOUR mind regarding abortion, did you not? So what makes it ok for you to change yours, but not for jallman to change his?

You friggin rock ghurl, thanks for the support!!!! God, I love reasonable people.

 

[jallman]

Oh jallman I did not run off. I have a life and other things to do. I told ya I am NOT LEAVING. Obviously you don’t work and you sit by your computer to text non-stop daily.

Really now, freak. I can call BUUUULLLLHIIIITTTT!!!! because you can ask cnredd, the master of statistics. I been gone about 7-8 hours or so. Are you trying to paint me as waiting with bated breath for your every word, because its just BUUUUUULLLLHHHHIIIIIIITTTTT!

You are trying to provoke me into losing control but I will not.

Ya lost control when you started lying about, I dunno, with your first assertions. Thats why its ok for me to call BUUUUUULLLLLSHIIIIIITTTTT in response to your every post. :lol:

You are the one who is out of control and IT SHOWS. Your constant potty mouth shows your character, I don't need to show it, you do it well enough yourself.

Nice try, but if I was such a potty mouth, then I am sure the editor would blank out my words, but it doesnt, so I am free to call BUUULLLLLSHIIIITTT

I will say this………I have used one word to describe a person who is pro-abortion, I used the word MONSTER. If the shoe fits I say wear it.

Translation: You vilify and condemn those who have a differing opinion from yours which is what Hitler, Stalin and all your other favorite comparisons did, right?

Jallman continues to call pro-lifers especially me, doughgirl-esque basket case, hysterical liar, freak, vacant-eyed moonbat, madame psychosis, scumbag, moron, cannon fodder, radical loon and he continuously swears…….bullshit. He uses other phrases to describe others as well ...He tells jamesrage….‘You're gonna be my new pet since doughgirl broke this morning”

BUUUUUULLLLSHHHHIIIIITTTTT for the most part. I dont call pro-lifers that. I call YOU a basket case, hysterical liar, freak, vacant eyed moon bat, madame psychosis, scumbag, moron, cannon fodder, radical loon because thats what you present yourself to be. And yes, I got plenty of other phrases to describe you, but they are reserved for the basement...which I saw you in earlier thanks to the whole "who's online" function, though you lied and said you wouldnt do. :mrgreen:

And I find it funny that with the exception of Bastula
not one of you think Mr. Potty Mouth is out of control. And if you do you surely do not show it. I think that says a lot about passion for the unborn child and more about how to suck up and be politically correct. If I am wrong I apologize.

Apologize now because they dont support you because you are a liar and a hysterical freak. I challenged you to show you werent, and you didnt. God I love it when you prove my point for me , you hysterical lying freak.

Jallman talks about his God in one sentence then takes His name in vain in the next……”Oh my god...” (942#) Then he wants to tell us all what the Bible says about abortion. I would suggest he reread the Ten Commandments particularly the second one.... and what it says about using His name in vain.

Grasping for some credibility much, freak? I told you, I have as low a tolerance as steen for you lies, but I am much more aggressive about showing what a liar you are.

Here you go jallman.......



and next week he will be at 17 1/2 then 16 then 15 3/4.....

Bullshit and anyone who has read this thread has seen why. Its very telling that I asked for justification for you misrepresentations and you have yet to show if, freak.

Then he says a few sentences down....



The wind blows in ALL DIRECTIONS WITH JALLMAN.

Yeah, whatever it takes to keep the voices in your head talking only to you, freak.

Thank you Bastula you are the only one who has come to my defense in seeing the hateful way Jallman so describes splitting open the unborn child. Obviously it does not bother other pro-lifers. He says it with such coldness. You might not agree with my positions or the way I present them but you do see the inhumanity in a person who certainly sounds and acts like he is anything but pro-life. I have never in my life seen such hateful prochoicers.

Thank you once again.

And that is why I will stay here on this board to tick the heck out of them...........:rofl

Damn, you have no shame, dragging blastula into your pit of lies, vilification, and dysfunction. At least have the decency to stand on your own two feet, freak. And please, stick around, you are only making my point more poignant. I love it.

 

[jallman]

Well doughgirl,

Just still cool and stay focus on your work. Let not your heart be troubled...

In response...pro choicers lemme hear you say "YEAAAAAHHHH!!!!!"

 

[jallman]

To doughgirl, I posted some things a while back for which responses are still being awaited. So instead of having you hunt them down, I'll just repost them here (they were actually short!).


**AND**

Man, she aint gonna respond to reason. I'm still waiting for the freak to show me where I made half the assertions she accused me of. :rofl

 

[easyt65]

And what was the reliability of that source? Sounds like a bogus lie to me. ......And that clinches it as a lie. ....And that also would be false......blah, blah, blah

You sure do run your mouth a lot, calling everything you disagree with a lie, challenging everyone for links and then discrediting them as false because YOU say so without ever providing links to back up your own claims. :roll:

 

[ngdawg]

In response...pro choicers lemme hear you say "YEAAAAAHHHH!!!!!"

YEAAAAAHHHH!!!!!:mrgreen:

I made it a point a while back not to answer doh!gal directly whenever possible. She doesn't pay attention when hit in the face with facts(well, maybe pays attention, but denies), reads words that aren't there(those voices, perhaps?), makes no sense at least half the time and looks like a raving lunatic the other half. I kind of feel sorry for her-she brings up God and Christ but spews falsehoods in their names, brings up her own experience with total unawareness or admittance that she made a choice she had to at that time and now beats herself literally senseless since. She has no compassion for anyone at all, no respect and , for someone that claims to 'work in the field'(must mean soy field, I guess), she's quite ignorant of basic fetal development and civil rights.

 

[jallman]

YEAAAAAHHHH!!!!!:mrgreen:

I made it a point a while back not to answer doh!gal directly whenever possible. She doesn't pay attention when hit in the face with facts(well, maybe pays attention, but denies), reads words that aren't there(those voices, perhaps?), makes no sense at least half the time and looks like a raving lunatic the other half. I kind of feel sorry for her-she brings up God and Christ but spews falsehoods in their names, brings up her own experience with total unawareness or admittance that she made a choice she had to at that time and now beats herself literally senseless since. She has no compassion for anyone at all, no respect and , for someone that claims to 'work in the field'(must mean soy field, I guess), she's quite ignorant of basic fetal development and civil rights.

He!!'s yeah, thats what I'm talkin about!!!! Man, prochoicers have owned this forum

 

[easyt65]

He!!'s yeah, thats what I'm talkin about!!!! Man, prochoicers have owned this forum

:shock: Uh....whatever!










Denial is a wonderful thing! And let's be honest, 'Pro-Choice' = 'Pro-Abortion'! 99% of the self-proclaimed 'Pro-Choicers' argue for abortions to be available for any woman, any time, for ANY reason - and NOT just for the safety of the mother, which most pro-lifers like me are for as well. I am pro-choice, but I choose life! What I am against is for abortions to be used as some post-sex contraceptive, a 'get-out-of-responsibility-for-my-actions-free' card which many pro-abotionists I have seen fight for!

 

[vergiss]

Thank you Bastula you are the only one who has come to my defense in seeing the hateful way Jallman so describes splitting open the unborn child. Obviously it does not bother other pro-lifers. He says it with such coldness. You might not agree with my positions or the way I present them but you do see the inhumanity in a person who certainly sounds and acts like he is anything but pro-life. I have never in my life seen such hateful prochoicers.

Uh huh.

Meanwhile, hands up anyone amongst us who's actually had an abortion...?

 

[ngdawg]

Uh huh.

Meanwhile, hands up anyone amongst us who's actually had an abortion...?

:lamo

'Tis a bit ironic, eh?

 

[doughgirl]

Jallman you are the one out of control period.

You talked about Captains picture like one would talk about gutting a fish.
You are a vile person and I will leave it at that.

Satan is at work on this forumn isnt he?

Here some facts dawg from secualr sources about fetal development.....I highly doubt they will make an impact but here goes.

http://www.justfacts.com/abortion.htm
You need to visit the site as it contains pictures and sound bites.


3 Weeks after Fertilization (5 weeks after LMP)

The eyes and spinal cord are visible and the developing brain has two lobes.[12] [13]

At this stage, according to the Supreme Court rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort at will. (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)


4 Weeks after Fertilization (6 weeks after LMP)

The heart is beating. The portion of the brain associated with consciousness (the cerebrum) and internal organs such as the lungs are beginning to develop and can be identified.[14] [15]


7 Weeks after Fertilization (9 weeks after LMP)

Muscles and nerves begin working together. When the upper lip is tickled, the arms move backwards.[16] The portion of the brain associated with consciousness (the cerebrum) has divided into hemispheres.[17][18]


9 Weeks after Fertilization (11 weeks after LMP)

More than 90% of the body structures found in a full-grown human are present. The medical classification changes from an embryo to a fetus. This dividing line was chosen by embryologists because from this point forward, most development involves growth in existing body structures instead of the formation of new ones.[19] [20] The preborn human moves body parts without any outside stimulation.[21]


10 Weeks after Fertilization (12 weeks after LMP)

All parts of the brain and spinal cord are formed. The heart pumps blood to every part of the body.[22] The whole body is sensitive to touch except for portions of the head. The preborn human makes facial expressions.[23]

At this stage, according to the Supreme Court rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort at will. (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)


12 Weeks after Fertilization (14 weeks after LMP)

Electrical signals from the nervous system are measurable. After an abortion, efforts to suckle will sometimes be observed.[25]


13 Weeks after Fertilization (15 weeks after LMP):

Ultrasound Video[26] Windows Media Player Real Player


14 Weeks after Fertilization (16 weeks after LMP)

The preborn human makes coordinated movements of the arms and legs.[27]



18 Weeks after Fertilization (20 weeks after LMP)

Ultrasound Video[29] Windows Media Player Real Player

The portion of the brain responsible for functions such as reasoning and memory (the cerebral cortex) has the same number of nerve cells as a full-grown adult.[30] [31]

At this stage, according to the Supreme Court rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort at will. (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)


20 Weeks after Fertilization (22 weeks after LMP): [32]

Ultrasound Video (Heart) [33] Windows Media Player Real Player


24 Weeks after Fertilization (26 weeks after LMP)

Taste buds are functional. The preborn human will swallow more amniotic fluid if a sweetener is added to it.[34] The grip is strong enough to hold onto an object that is moving up and down.[35] If born and given specialized care, the survival rate is more than 80%.[36]

At this stage, according to the Supreme Court's rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Doe vs. Bolton," a pregnant woman can abort to preserve her health. One example from Roe vs. Wade of what may be considered harmful to a mother's health is the "stigma of unwed motherhood." (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)


28 Weeks after Fertilization (30 weeks after LMP)

If born and given specialized care, the survival rate is more than 95%.[37]

Premature infants born at this time are more sensitive to pain than infants who are born at 38 weeks, and infants who are born at 38 weeks are more sensitive to pain than older infants (3 -12 months old.) [38] [39]


32 Weeks after Fertilization (34 weeks after LMP)


38 Weeks after Fertilization (40 weeks after LMP)

Average point in time when humans are born. At birth, the medical classification changes from a fetus to a neonate.[40] [41] At any point prior to birth, according to the Supreme Court's rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Doe vs. Bolton," a pregnant woman can abort to preserve her health. One example from Roe vs. Wade of what may be considered harmful to a mother's health is the work of caring for a child. (More information and detail in the section on Constitution and Law.)

 

[doughgirl]

SOURCES

[12] Book: The First Nine Months of Life. By Geraldine Lux Flanagan. Simon & Shuster, 1962. Second edition. Page 35 states that in the third week, "the brain has two lobes" and "the early spinal cord is bordered by the future vertebrae and muscle segments." A picture shows the brain lobes and spinal cord.

[13] Gray's Anatomy - The Anatomical Basis of Medicine and Surgery. Churchill Livingstone, 1995. Page 329 states that at 19-21 days, "The cranial half of the groove, representing developing brain, begins to develop cephalic flexure, optic primordia become visible…"

[14] "Fetus." By Frank D. Allan in the Encyclopedia of Human Biology. Academic Press, 1997. Volume 3. Page 954 states that by the end of the third week, a "primitive heart derived from the medsoblast initiates circulation."

[15] Gray's Anatomy - The Anatomical Basis of Medicine and Surgery. Churchill Livingstone, 1995. Page 329 states that at 21-27 days, "primary cerebral vesicles appear." "Rudimentary limb buds appear and the heart tubes fuse into a common loop in which contractile activity commences. The primordia of the thyroid gland, lungs, liver, pancreas, and mesonephric tubules are all identifiable."

[16] Book: The First Nine Months of Life. By Geraldine Lux Flanagan. Simon & Shuster, 1962. Second edition. Pages 52-53 state: "In the sixth and seventh weeks, nerves and muscles work together for the first time. If the area of the lips, the first to become sensitive to touch, is gently stroked, the baby, who then is still an embryo, responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with the arms. This is called a "total pattern" response because it involves most of the body rather than the approximate local part." This is documented by photos. Page 52 notes, "All of the photographs in this book that show the movement of the baby are taken from" films made by Davenport Hooker at the University of Pittsburgh.

[17] Gray's Anatomy - The Anatomical Basis of Medicine and Surgery. Churchill Livingstone, 1995. Page 329 states that in the 6th and 7th weeks, "The pontine flexure, cerebral hemispheres and cerebellum are developing."

[18] Seven weeks after fertilization. Intrauterine picture taken under the direction of Professor Andrzej Skawina, Collegium Medicum Jagiellonian University (Krakow, Poland); Antoni Marsinek, MD, The Czerwiakowski Gynecological and Obstetrics Hospital (Krakow, Poland); Photographers: Andrzej Zachwieja, Jan Walczewski. There are a number of different photographers who have taken intrauterine photos. We asked several individuals if we could use their pictures, and Life Issues was the only one who gave us permission. The pictures from Life Issues look similar to those taken by the other photographers.

[19] Gray's Anatomy - The Anatomical Basis of Medicine and Surgery. Churchill Livingstone, 1995. Page 95 states: "When mammalian embryos reach a certain size, growth rather than morphogenesis occurs. The embryo is referred to as a fetus; this occurs at 56-57 postovulatory days in humans when the onset of bone marrow formation in the humerus can be seen (Streeter 1949); at this stage more than 90% of the named structures of the adult body have appeared."

[20] Book: The First Nine Months of Life. By Geraldine Lux Flanagan. Simon & Shuster, 1962. Second edition. Page 48 states: "The appearance of the first bone cells marks the end of the embryonic period. This criterion was chosen by embryologists because the beginning bone formation coincides with the essential completion of the body."

[21] Book: The First Nine Months of Life. By Geraldine Lux Flanagan. Simon & Shuster, 1962. Second edition. Pages 52-53 state: "By the beginning of this third month the baby moves spontaneously, without being touched, for the first time."

[22] "Fetus." By Frank D. Allan in the Encyclopedia of Human Biology. Academic Press, 1997. Volume 3. Page 955 states that in the tenth week: "Division of the heart into chambers is complete, and a definitive vascular system carries blood to and from all parts of the body. … All components of the brain and spinal cord are formed, and nerves link the stem of the brain and the spinal cord to all tissues and organs of the body."

[23] Book: The First Nine Months of Life. By Geraldine Lux Flanagan. Simon & Shuster, 1962. Second edition. Pages 53-54 state: "In the ninth and tenth weeks, if the baby's forehead is touched, he may turn his head away and pucker up his brow and frown." "[T]he entire body becomes sensitive to touch with a notable exception: the sides, back and top of the head."

[24] Eleven weeks after fertilization. Intrauterine picture taken under the direction of Professor Andrzej Skawina, Collegium Medicum Jagiellonian University (Krakow, Poland); Antoni Marsinek, MD, The Czerwiakowski Gynecological and Obstetrics Hospital (Krakow, Poland); Photographers: Andrzej Zachwieja, Jan Walczewski. There are a number of different photographers who have taken intrauterine photos. We asked several individuals if we could use their pictures, and Life Issues was the only one who gave us permission. The pictures from Life Issues look similar to those taken by the other photographers.

[25] "Fetus." By Frank D. Allan in the Encyclopedia of Human Biology. Academic Press, 1997. Volume 3. Page 962 states that in the third month, "Electrical activity of the nervous system is discernible… Attempts to suckle have been seen in utero and in aborted fetuses of 3 months."

[26] Ultrasound taken on November 25, 1997. Gestational age (GA) is 14 weeks and 4 days counted from the LMP. This falls under the category of 15 weeks after LMP and 13 weeks after fertilization.

[27] Book: Before We Are Born - Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. By Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud. W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition. Page 106 states: "Limb movements, which occur at the end of the embryonic period (8 weeks), become coordinated by the 14th week, but are too slight to be felt by the mother."

[28] Sixteen weeks after fertilization. Intrauterine picture taken under the direction of Professor Andrzej Skawina, Collegium Medicum Jagiellonian University (Krakow, Poland); Antoni Marsinek, MD, The Czerwiakowski Gynecological and Obstetrics Hospital (Krakow, Poland); Photographers: Andrzej Zachwieja, Jan Walczewski. There are a number of different photographers who have taken intrauterine photos. We asked several individuals if we could use their pictures, and Life Issues was the only one who gave us permission. The pictures from Life Issues look similar to those taken by the other photographers.

[29] Ultrasound taken on December 24, 1997. Gestational age (GA) is 19 weeks and 4 days counted from the last menstrual period. This falls under the category of 20 weeks after LMP and 18 weeks after fertilization.

[30] Article: "Pain and its Effects in the Human Neonate and Fetus." By K.J.S. Anand & P.R. Hickey. New England Journal of Medicine, November 19, 1987. Page 1322 states, "by 20 weeks each cortex has a full complement of 109 neurons." This article uses the obstetric method of counting from the last menstrual period, as evidenced by the chart on page 1322, which uses a gestation of 40 weeks for pregnancy. Two weeks must be subtracted to provide the actual time since fertilization.

[31] "Brain." New Millennium Encyclopedia. Simon and Shuster, 1999. This article states: "The cerebrum is the largest part of the human brain, making up approximately 85 percent of the brain’s weight; its large surface area (cortex) and intricate development account for the superior intelligence of humans, compared with other animals." "A large part of the human cortex, the frontal area, is used for awareness, intelligence, and memory."

[32] Twenty weeks after fertilization. Intrauterine picture taken under the direction of Professor Andrzej Skawina, Collegium Medicum Jagiellonian University (Krakow, Poland); Antoni Marsinek, MD, The Czerwiakowski Gynecological and Obstetrics Hospital (Krakow, Poland); Photographers: Andrzej Zachwieja, Jan Walczewski. There are a number of different photographers who have taken intrauterine photos. We asked several individuals if we could use their pictures, and Life Issues was the only one who gave us permission. The pictures from Life Issues look similar to those taken by the other photographers.

[33] Ultrasound taken on May 31, 1999. Gestational age (GA) is 21 weeks and 5 days counted from the last menstrual period. This falls under the category of 22 weeks after LMP and 20 weeks after fertilization.

[34] Encyclopedia of Human Biology. Academic Press, 1997. Volume 3. Entry: Fetus. By Frank D. Allan. Page 962 states: "Taste buds are functional at 6 months, and the modality for sweetness is well differentiated. Increased "drinking" of the amniotic fluid is effected when sweet substances are introduced."

 

[doughgirl]

[35] Book: The First Nine Months of Life. By Geraldine Lux Flanagan. Simon & Shuster, 1962. Second edition. Page 71 states: "In the fifth and sixth months the grip becomes strong. This baby is holding a rod and moves his arm up and down as the rod is moved." This is documented by a photo. Page 52 notes, "All of the photographs in this book that show the movement of the baby are taken from" films made by Davenport Hooker at the University of Pittsburgh.

[36] Study: "Very Low Birth Weight Outcomes of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development Neonatal Research Network, January 1995 Through December 1996." By James A. Lemons et al., including Avroy A. Fanaroff. Pediatrics, January 2001. Accessed at http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/full/107/1/e1 in October of 2001. Figure 3 is a bar graph of "Mortality before discharge by gestational age as estimated by best obstetrical estimate…" The term "obstetrical estimate" implies that the weeks are counted from LMP. To confirm, I wrote Dr. Fanaroff. He replied: "We do not try to get to the issue of day of conception hence when we refer to gestational age we are always going back to the Last Menstrual Period." The graph indicates that the mortality rate at a gestational age (LMP) of 26 weeks is less than 20%. Hence, the survival rate at 24 weeks after fertilization is more than 80%.

[37] Study: "Very Low Birth Weight Outcomes of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development Neonatal Research Network, January 1995 Through December 1996." By James A. Lemons et al., including Avroy A. Fanaroff. Pediatrics, January 2001. Accessed at http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/full/107/1/e1 in October of 2001. Figure 3 is a bar graph of "Mortality before discharge by gestational age as estimated by best obstetrical estimate…" The term "obstetrical estimate" implies that the weeks are counted from LMP. To confirm, I wrote Dr. Fanaroff. He replied: "We do not try to get to the issue of day of conception hence when we refer to gestational age we are always going back to the Last Menstrual Period." The graph indicates that the mortality rate at a gestational age (LMP) of 30 weeks is a little less than 5%. Hence, the survival rate at 28 weeks after fertilization is more than 95%.

[38] Article: "Pain and its Effects in the Human Neonate and Fetus." By K.J.S. Anand & P.R. Hickey. New England Journal of Medicine, November 19, 1987. Page 1325 states: "Most recently the motor responses of 124 healthy full-term neonates to a pinprick in the leg were reported to be flexion and adduction of the upper and lower limbs associated with grimacing, crying, or both, and these responses were subsequently quantified. Similar responses have also been documented in very premature neonates, and in a recent study, Fitzgerald et al. found that premature neonates (<30 weeks) not only had lower thresholds for a flexor response but also had increased sensitization after repeated stimulation." Page 1325 states: "In other studies of the cry response to painful procedures, neonates were found to be more sensitive to pain than older infants (those 3 to 12 months old)…" This article uses the obstetric method of counting from the last menstrual period, as evidenced by the chart on page 1322, which uses a gestation of 40 weeks for pregnancy. Two weeks must be subtracted to provide the actual time since fertilization.

[39] "Symptom Management: Acute Pain, Chapter 3 - Pain in Preverbal Children." United States National Institutes of Health, Publication Number 94-2421. June 1994. Accessed at http://www.nih.gov/ninr/research/vol6/preverbal.pdf in September of 2002. Page 2 cites one possible reason why younger humans are more sensitive to pain: "Serotonin (5HT) is a biogenic amine transmitter that serves an important role in pain modulation. … Serotonin levels in the young infants are low and may limit the effectiveness of the endogenous pain control mechanisms (Fitzgerald 1991b)."

[40] Book: Before We Are Born - Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. By Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud. W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition. Page 109 states: "The expected date of delivery (EDD) of a fetus is 266 days, or 38 weeks, after fertilization; that is, 280 days, or 40 weeks, after LNMP (Table 7-1)."

[41] Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary. 29th edition. W.B. Saunders Company, 2000.
Page 661 defines a fetus as "the unborn offspring in the postembryonic period, after major structures have been outlined, in humans from nine weeks after fertilization until birth." Page 1184 defines a neonate as a "newborn infant."