Abortion is murder

[ngdawg]

ngdawg......

I just reread all the posts and now I think what you are saying is that while a baby may be a fetus a fetus may not be a baby?

Is that actually your argument???? 'Cause I stand by the assertion no matter which way you phrase it. A fetus is a baby. A baby may be a fetus if it's at the fetal stage of development or it may a newborn.

You can stand by a traffic signal for all I care...your argument was, to repeat ONCE again, that most dictionaries state a fetus is a baby and you are wrong. Done. Easy. Standing by your own assertions, with absolutely nothing to back them up AS STATED, means absolutely nothing.

 

[FutureIncoming]

Is it okay to terminatel the unborn regardless of their developmental stage?

It is exactly as okay to do that as it is to terminate any ordinary animal, since unborn humans are provably no more than the equivalent of ordinary animals. On what grounds might you say they are not equivalent to ordinary animals, and, on what grounds might you say that unwanted unborn humans should not be terminated, while also saying it is okay to terminate equivalently-developed unwanted ordinary animals (say, an unwanted cat at the SPCA)?

 

[talloulou]

You can stand by a traffic signal for all I care...your argument was, to repeat ONCE again, that most dictionaries state a fetus is a baby and you are wrong. Done. Easy. Standing by your own assertions, with absolutely nothing to back them up AS STATED, means absolutely nothing.

They do and I gave you links to them! Are you claiming that this:

talloulou
Funny you got a link for that? 'Cause when I type BABY into the msn dictionary I get this


ba·by


noun (plural ba·bies)
Definitions:

1. very young child: a very young child who is not yet able to walk or talk

2. unborn child: a child who is still in the womb

3. childish person: somebody regarded as childish or overly dependent
told him not to be such a baby

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/baby.html

Further more

ba·by Audio pronunciation of "baby" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bb)
n. pl. ba·bies

1.
1. A very young child; an infant.
2. An unborn child; a fetus.
3. The youngest member of a family or group.
4. A very young animal.
2. An adult or young person who behaves in an infantile way.
3. Slang. A girl or young woman.
4. Informal. Sweetheart; dear. Used as a term of endearment.
5. Slang. An object of personal concern or interest: Keeping the boat in good repair is your baby

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=baby

is not equal to dictionaries stating the case that a fetus is a baby!

Your games are silly!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl :2wave:

 

[ngdawg]

They do and I gave you links to them! Are you claiming that this:



is not equal to dictionaries stating the case that a fetus is a baby!

Your games are silly!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl :2wave:

From your post #510:
Originally Posted by steen
Nope, as a fetus is not a baby.



According to most dictionaries that's a BOLD FACE LIE


Now..either you are delusional, have Alzheimers or just flat out lie and are not good at it...or maybe you're so dyslexic you can't read a simple post, but answer it anyway. The statement stands as does the multiple definitions given in support of it. You, regardless of your 'assertions' did not dispute any other definition but that one, so it is not I playing games here...either stick to the tune or stop singing.

 

[Upstart]

I have a brilliant idea!

Let's have Steen decide what a fetus is and what a baby is!

Whatever he says, let's go with that!

 

[steen]

Well why else would some dictionaries change the definition of baby to exclude the unborn? Most haven't but over time a few have.

Ah, and are you sure it is not the other way around?

And with all your laughing you failed to address the point ......

The unborn are babies in MOST dictionaries and thus to argue that a fetus is not a baby is a BOLD FACE LIE. Even the dictionary that you yourself quoted includes fetus in the definition of "baby" so who's laughing now?

The dictionary I use shows no such crossover of developmental stages.

 

[steen]

I have a brilliant idea!

Let's have Steen decide what a fetus is and what a baby is!

Whatever he says, let's go with that!

Zygote: Single fertilized cell, where the haploid gametes fuse to become a diploid cell.

Morula: About the 100-cell stage, before folding and differentiation

Blastocyst: The in-folded result of the morula. Beginning cell differentiation.

Embryo. The blastocyst's transition from differentiated cell layers to implantation and embryonic disk formation (about 2nd week)

Fetus. Starting in the 9th week of pregnancy, when the cellular foundation of the organs have been laid down

Neonate: 0-1 year.

Baby: 0-3 years

Child: 3-12 years (or start of puberty).

Adolescent: 12 (or puberty) until adulthood and legal rights.

There it is, specific and unambiguous. No word games, no revisionist linguistics, no attempt at blending developmental stages for deliberate confusion and misrepresentation.

But then, it also robs prolifers of much of their emotional deception and hyperbole, so they will never go with it.

 

[Upstart]

That is very interesting! However, I'm confused on one point. What is the difference between a fetus and a baby?

 

[talloulou]

Well this whole argument is ridiculous and stupid in my opinion. If you look up baby in most dictionaries it WILL include the unborn fetus in the definition as I have shown.

The problem is when you look up fetus it will not include the defintion baby.

Why?

How the hell should I know. Maybe because a fetus can pertain to anything....like a fetal pig vs a fetal human and baby doesn't? I don't know.

But just because you look up the word fetus and don't get baby as a definition....does not mean you can be in denial about the FACT that when you look up baby you DO get unborn and fetus in the definition in most dictionaries including the one ngdawg used to try to win this argument.


To remain blind to that fact is IRRATIONAL and ILLOGICAL. And you have definitely not proved that a FETUS is NOT a BABY.

 

[ngdawg]

I have a brilliant idea!

Let's have Steen decide what a fetus is and what a baby is!

Whatever he says, let's go with that!

Oh, please, between him and FI, it'll be some moley mosquito or something...:roll:
Next time, phrase what you mean and mean what you say. I'm pragmatic enough to take exactly how it's written and no more, no less and keep my own emotions out of it-they have no place in debate of law and definitions.

 

[ngdawg]

Well this whole argument is ridiculous and stupid in my opinion. If you look up baby in most dictionaries it WILL include the unborn fetus in the definition as I have shown.

The problem is when you look up fetus it will not include the defintion baby.


But just because you look up the word fetus and don't get baby as a definition....does not mean you can be in denial about the FACT that when you look up baby you DO get unborn and fetus in the definition in most dictionaries including the one ngdawg used to try to win this argument.


To remain blind to that fact is IRRATIONAL and ILLOGICAL. And you have definitely not proved that a FETUS is NOT a BABY.

In all that I used ( I forget how many) they used the same definitions across the board, so saying 'the one ngdawg used' just proves you either don't read or have memory issues.:roll:

Upstart: Easiest most logical UNEMOTIONAL way is this: it is a fetus until such time as it becomes a)viable and capable of live birth or b) is already born. at either point, calling it a baby for the sake of argument is fine(yea, whatever, Steen). These criteria are what is used to determine dual murder charges in states that use them(although for legal reasons, it's continued to be called 'fetus' and if it dies after birth, 'infant' ). Technically, 'baby' is not even a medical or legal term in stages of development. Any parent who has ever had to obtain a medical record will see 'infant' or 'child' as the noun of choice, with 'child' being used until at least 17 years old.

 

[talloulou]

In all that I used ( I forget how many) they used the same definitions across the board, so saying 'the one ngdawg used' just proves you either don't read or have memory issues.:roll:

Didn't you use MSN? I thought you did but if you didn't my mistake. MSN and most other dictionaries clearly include the unborn in their defintion of baby. However they don't use the term baby in the defintion of fetus.

But..... if you use MSN to check the definition of PIZZA, food is not in the defintion. However if you check the definition of FOOD clearly pizza qualifies.

To argue that Pizza is not a food because the definition for pizza doesn't say food you'd be a fool. Yet that seems to be your argument for why a fetus is not a baby. Since the definition of fetus doesn't say BABY you're arguing that a fetus is not a baby. When clearly the definition of BABY includes a human fetus.

Upstart: Easiest most logical UNEMOTIONAL way is this: it is a fetus until such time as it becomes a)viable and capable of live birth or b) is already born. at either point

Except your just making that up despite the fact that most dictionaries don't agree with you.

Technically, 'baby' is not even a medical or legal term in stages of development.

But that doesn't stop drs. office's from routinely asking patient's if they're ready to hear the baby's heartbeat or ready to see the baby on ultrasound.

Any parent who has ever had to obtain a medical record will see 'infant' or 'child' as the noun of choice, with 'child' being used until at least 17 years old.

Interesting but irrevelant to your claim that a fetus is not a baby.

 

[talloulou]

Msn:
Definitions:

unborn offspring: an unborn vertebrate at a stage when all the structural features of the adult are recognizable, especially an unborn human offspring after eight weeks of development

See....you clearly did use MSN so I think you should apologize for saying I have memory issues or claiming I don't read right.

 

[ngdawg]

See....you clearly did use MSN so I think you should apologize for saying I have memory issues or claiming I don't read right.

I didn't post a definition for 'baby' from MSN or anywhere else, so I'm sorry you can't read right...:roll: Ok, it's not memory issues..it's comprehension you have trouble with. Show me where I post any single definition of 'baby'.
As for making stuff up, those are the criteria used in cases of dual murder in states where those type of charges are considered. Face it, you just want to use a word that ensures cute and cuddly and emotional attachment.

 

[steen]

That is very interesting! However, I'm confused on one point. What is the difference between a fetus and a baby?

Birth is when the developmental stage transitions from fetus to baby/neonate..

 

[doughgirl]

“Why should a "loaded" question be answered instead of challenged?
For example:
Have you stopped running into people with your car? Answer yes or no, please!”

I’d be happy to answer any question. I only asked for a yes or no answer. Steen knows what I am getting at, that’s why he hasn’t answered it yet.

Upstart said, “I have a brilliant idea!

Let's have Steen decide what a fetus is and what a baby is!

Whatever he says, let's go with that!”

I just want to ask him this…..this one simple question THAT HE WILL NOT ANSWER.

Is abortion ok at 8 months? Yes or no? I am not talking rape or medical risks to the mother………..Should a woman be allowed to terminate the pregnancy at 8 months for whatever reason she sees fit?

YES OR NO

Simple question don’t ya think? But he refuses to answer it.

 

[talloulou]

I didn't post a definition for 'baby' from MSN or anywhere else, so I'm sorry you can't read right...:roll:

No you posted the definition for fetus from MSN and then you implied that the definition you posted makes the case that a fetus is NOT a baby.

Then I replied by telling you that very SAME dictionary includes "fetus" in its definition for the word "baby."

You are playing a game that you have lost......

I notice you didn't respond to a similar example of your game re:the whole "is pizza a food?" example. That's because that example shows how silly your game is.

Ok, it's not memory issues..it's comprehension you have trouble with.

Not exactly an apology, but close enough:mrgreen:

Show me where I post any single definition of 'baby'.

You'd never be so dumb as to make that mistake now would you?

Face it, you just want to use a word that ensures cute and cuddly and emotional attachment.

I don't need cute, cuddly, or emotional attachment. I just refuse to stand by while some pervert the English language in order to make their point more palatable.

 

[doughgirl]

What does definitions have to do with it?

You have a life whose heart is beating, that has measurable brain waves.......it deserves to live and if you stop the life process you kill it.
Who the heck cares what you call it, they are just labels. The issue should not be language it should be truth and whether woman should be allowed to kill their unborn child.

 

[talloulou]

What does definitions have to do with it?

Language says alot about a society. How we talk about something tells you alot about what we think and what we value. The fact that some prochoicers refuse to acknowledge the word baby in regards to a fetus is a sign that they understand "baby" to have value. Otherwise why fight it so much? It's important that we not let them make abortion palatable with words. Most prochoicers don't actually think all that much about abortion. They have just been fed a bunch of lies about how wrong it would be to force a woman to have a baby. The language prochoicers use has been sterilized and that right there is part of the problem.

If you ask a bunch of young people the following two questions:::

Should a woman have the right to surgically terminate a pregnancy?

vs

Should a mother have the right to have her unborn baby killed?

You get different answers from some of them. Why? Because the language makes them pause.....the first one sounds so sterile it's easy to agree with but the second one....well that one doesn't sound right at all and now they're not so sure.

Should a woman have the right to abort?

vs

Should a woman have the right to order a killing?

 

[FutureIncoming]

You have a life whose heart is beating, that has measurable brain waves.......it deserves to live and if you stop the life process you kill it.

And a cat has a life with a beating heart and measurable brain waves, and if you kill it you stop the life process.
Both are equivalent, even to having about the same total amount of brain. Objectively, in Measurable Scientific Fact, they are equivalent animals. Yet pro-lifers claim that the unborn human's life is somehow more important than the cat's life. Thus, when unwanted, the cat is easily killed, but a storm of protest is raised over killing the perfectly equivalent unborn human animal, when unwanted. I have asked multiple times for some explanation for this dichotomy, which is not founded on arbitrariness, or on prejudice, or on selfishness, or on imaginary "potential", or on hypocrisy, and no pro-lifer has yet answered.

I’d be happy to answer any question.

OKAY: What is an objective/provable reason why the purely animal life of an unborn human is more important than the life of any other equivalently developed ordinary animal?

 

[hipster_19]

Language says alot about a society. How we talk about something tells you alot about what we think and what we value. The fact that some prochoicers refuse to acknowledge the word baby in regards to a fetus is a sign that they understand "baby" to have value. Otherwise why fight it so much? It's important that we not let them make abortion palatable with words. Most prochoicers don't actually think all that much about abortion. They have just been fed a bunch of lies about how wrong it would be to force a woman to have a baby. The language prochoicers use has been sterilized and that right there is part of the problem.

Oh please!!! Why don't you stop telling us what we think and actually listen to what pro-choicers have to say? But you don't want to do that, do you?! You'd rather see us as evil people who creep into pregnant women's rooms in the middle of the night, cut them open and steal whats inside! Give me a break!

 

[talloulou]

Oh please!!! Why don't you stop telling us what we think and actually listen to what pro-choicers have to say?

I do listen to what you have to say and I have heard many of you repeatedly claim that a fetus is not a baby when most dictionaries tell you a fetus is clearly a baby.

Why is that? None of you really answer.

But you don't want to do that, do you?!

I wouldn't follow these threads if I wasn't in to listening.

You'd rather see us as evil people who creep into pregnant women's rooms in the middle of the night, cut them open and steal whats inside! Give me a break!

Wow that's an over the top irrational crazy statement that says tons more about you than it does me. Furthermore that never even came close to coming out of my mouth. I don't even think thoughts like that.

I just believe if a society is going to give mother's the right to have their unborn killed they should be honest when talking about that right. It should not be disguised or dressed up by palatable language.

There are prochoicers like Korimyrtherat who don't try to dress up the language! Though I don't share his views I do highly respect him for his honesty.

 

[ngdawg]

No you posted the definition for fetus from MSN and then you implied that the definition you posted makes the case that a fetus is NOT a baby.

Then I replied by telling you that very SAME dictionary includes "fetus" in its definition for the word "baby."

You are playing a game that you have lost......

I notice you didn't respond to a similar example of your game re:the whole "is pizza a food?" example. That's because that example shows how silly your game is.



Not exactly an apology, but close enough:mrgreen:



You'd never be so dumb as to make that mistake now would you?
don't need cute, cuddly, or emotional attachment. I just refuse to stand by while some pervert the English language in order to make their point more palatable.

When we are expecting, we expect a baby...we don't expect a box of chocolates or a goldfish to pop out, so your points there are moot. As for implications, I don't 'imply', I say it. You remarked that dictionaries say fetuses are babies, I showed not one does. I never called them anything else, so don't be or play stupid. You then go on to twist your own words to fit your own criteria, saying I'm wrong...well, no...I answered succinctly without any implying-if you take what others mean differently, that is your issue with comprehension, not ours with explanations. Someone answers you without resorting to your own game-playing of word-twisting, memory 'loss' and self-editing and you can't understand it. Either read what is written how it's written or concede your game has no merit. I really don't give two sh!ts.I'm not here to make things more palatable for you.

 

[talloulou]

You remarked that dictionaries say fetuses are babies, I showed not one does.

ba·by Audio pronunciation of "baby" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bb)
n. pl. ba·bies

1.
1. A very young child; an infant.
2. An unborn child; a fetus.
3. The youngest member of a family or group.
4. A very young animal.
2. An adult or young person who behaves in an infantile way.
3. Slang. A girl or young woman.
4. Informal. Sweetheart; dear. Used as a term of endearment.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=baby

Definition #2 clearly shows that a fetus is a baby.

YOU ARE THE ONE PLAYING GAMES. YOU HAVE LOST YOUR OWN GAME. IF YOU CAN"T DEAL WITH THAT it's no skin off my back. I'm done this looney discussion!

 

[Stace]

ba·by Audio pronunciation of "baby" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bb)
n. pl. ba·bies

1.
1. A very young child; an infant.
2. An unborn child; a fetus.
3. The youngest member of a family or group.
4. A very young animal.
2. An adult or young person who behaves in an infantile way.
3. Slang. A girl or young woman.
4. Informal. Sweetheart; dear. Used as a term of endearment.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=baby

Definition #2 clearly shows that a fetus is a baby.

YOU ARE THE ONE PLAYING GAMES. YOU HAVE LOST YOUR OWN GAME. IF YOU CAN"T DEAL WITH THAT it's no skin off my back. I'm done this looney discussion!

Both of you chill out, please!!! :mrgreen:

If you look up fetus, it says nothing about babies. However, if you look up baby, it mentions a fetus. Clearly, there is some discord there, but I'm sure there's a reason for it. Fetus is a more technical term than baby is. Which one is more correct? Who knows? Is it really THAT big of a deal?