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Abortion is Genocide

I have no idea who he is! It doesn't matter! The point is that he should not of been banned because of this thread, that's bullshit. You trying to lock up and archive a thread that has sparked discussion is bullshit. No matter how much you disagree with it.

Moderator's Warning:
Comments like this are to stop, now. 1069 is correct about why this user has been banned. My suggestion is if you have a question about mod actions, DO NOT POST IT; PM that mod. Remember, not all mod actions are public. I am inclined to archive and lock this thread, as it was started by a troll, for no purpose other then to troll. As, currently, people are debating an offshoot issue, reasonably, I will wait. ANY rule violations will be infractable and the thread will be shut down.
 
Re: History

"History"
That is a personal issue of morality.
The fetus and not yourself must be established as the conscientious objector for legal issue.

Life on earth began billions of years ago. Hominid life forms began many years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens life forms began about 200,000 years ago.


That is a scientific fact.........
 
Re: History

Life on earth began billions of years ago. Hominid life forms began many years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens life forms began about 200,000 years ago.
That is a scientific fact.........


True, it is.
I'm pleased you're able to recognize it as such.
 
sebastian said:
Abortion is genocide. This statement is true on the grounds that the unborn are identified as the "Unwanted Unborn" and their entire destruction is sort through abortion, abortion is systematic and is planned.
Captain Courtesy said:
Ignore him {{sebastian}} folks. Just jimmyjack with nothing to do on a Saturday other then pathetically troll a debate forum.
Rhapsody1447 said:
Why he presented a legit point?
FALSE. For part of the reason jimmyjack/sebastian's point is false, see this:
dottedmint said:
Main Entry: geno·cide
noun: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
Abortion is not aimed at any particular racial group. It is not aimed at any particular political group. And it is not aimed at any particular cultural group. For proof, just ask yourself, "When women of those groups voluntarily seek abortion, how can it be said that those groups are being targeted for extermination?" Furthermore, such groups always have some sort of organization. It would not be far-fetched to say that "genocide" is proportionate to murder: Note that an average well-developed human being is an organization of human cells, just as an ethnic group is an organization of humans. Murder is the killing of the being, the organization-of-cells, while genocide is the killing of the ethnic group, the organization-of-humans. Well, now ask yourself, "When was the last time an organization of fetuses has existed?" Since such a thing does not exist and has never existed, it is impossible to lump fetuses together as if they were equivalent to a racial or political or cultural group. In fact, due to lack of necessary abilities, human fetuses will forever not be forming some organization of themselves, and therefore abortion cannot possibly ever be genocide, by itself.

1069 said:
since this thread was discovered to have been posted by a banned troll, how about locking and archiving it? Leaving it open seems to invite incipient trollishness from others.
Leaving it open offers an opportunity to calmly debate this claim, and to rebut it with thoroughness. And afterward, if anyone else wants to make an equivalent claim, they can be directed here to see the rebuttal for themselves. Finally, even if jimmyjack/sebastian can't actually post here, he almost certainly can view messages. Maybe he will even read one or two, and actually learn some valid facts. Not that he would admit being proved wrong, of course; that's one more reason why he deserved to be banned. An honest debater will accept facts and admit it, when an argument is proved to fail.

Navy Pride said:
I personally think that any abortion performed with the exception of where the mothers life is endangered or possibly in the case of rape and incest is the most barbaric act one human being can perpetuate on another.....
The phrase "human being" does not apply to a fetus in the same way that it applies to an ordinary well-developed human. For proof, ask yourself, "Why are phrases such as 'cat being' or 'lizard being' or 'fetus being' not commonly used in casual conversation?" The answer is: Because if a human fetus was a "being" in the same sense that we use that word in such expressions as "human being", "alien being", "intelligent being", and so on, then and only then could abortion be an act perpetrated by one human being upon another human being. So, because of the non-equivalence of "human being" and "human fetus", abortion is actually an act perpetrated by a human being upon a mere animal, and abortion is nothing more than that, except in the prejudiced viewpoint of uninformed and not-thinking-clearly pro-lifers.
Navy Pride said:
abortion is murder in the womb
FALSE, since murder involves the killing of a "human being", and not the killing of a provable animal, however human that animal may be. It is Scientific Fact that an unborn human is only an animal, while it is also Scientific Fact that the average well-developed human is rather more than only an animal, mostly because of intelligence. Meanwhile, consider that if you were attacked by a serial killer, but managed to kill him first, you would not be charged with murder. You'd be a hero, for killing an especially vicious animal. So I reiterate: killing animals is not murder.
Navy Pride said:
Pro life people believe life begins at conception...
This is irrelevant to the distinction between beings and animals.


CaptainCourtesy said:
I think we've eliminated so many jimmjack clones that I think we can safely call it 'jimmyjack genocide'.
dottedmint said:
What?????
It is possible for somebody using Computer A to log into Computer B using different names and passwords. It is also possible for the people in charge of Computer B to object to that, and to take measures to ban all of those different log-in names.

dottedmint said:
So if you knew someone who you thought was "genocidal or even homicidal" you think it would be better "not to antagonize them" instead of doing anything you can to try to make sure this person does not prove your thoughts?
Since abortion is neither murder nor genocide, your point is irrelevant to the overall Debate. What is relevant is the need to prove the accuracy of one's thoughts. That is, just because you might think someone committing abortion is also committing murder, what evidence do you have to support this claim? (See above, about killing non-beings and other animals.)
 
"Abortion is not aimed at any particular racial group. It is not aimed at any particular political group. And it is not aimed at any particular cultural group. For proof, just ask yourself, "When women of those groups voluntarily seek abortion, how can it be said that those groups are being targeted for extermination?" Furthermore, such groups always have some sort of organization."

You do not need to be part of an organized group in order to suffer from genocide.

You just need to be part of a "racial, political, or cultural group".

Unwanted babies are a part of a "cultural group".

It has become very common for any unborn baby who is suspected of having Downs Syndrom to be aborted.

Clearly this "cultural group" is being systematically targetted for distruction.


It is Scientific Fact that an unborn human is only an animal, while it is also Scientific Fact that the average well-developed human is rather more than only an animal, mostly because of intelligence.

You've got to be kidding.

There are four main Kingdoms that all living organisms fit into.

Protista
Fungi
Plantae
Animalia

We do not fit in the Kingdom of Plantae, Fungi, or Protista.

So this means that it is a SCIENTIFIC FACT that humans are also animals.

Unless you are going to claim to being a plant?


Meanwhile, consider that if you were attacked by a serial killer, but managed to kill him first, you would not be charged with murder. You'd be a hero, for killing an especially vicious animal. So I reiterate: killing animals is not murder.

That is called self defense and as I pointed out above all humans are also scientifically animals.

It is possible for somebody using Computer A to log into Computer B using different names and passwords. It is also possible for the people in charge of Computer B to object to that, and to take measures to ban all of those different log-in names.

IF I got banned I could go to a library and log in with a different name. That I understand.

What I don't understand is how someone would know that it was me.

What is relevant is the need to prove the accuracy of one's thoughts.

Right.

All living organisms are placed into one of four Kingdoms.

Humans are placed in Kingdom Animalia. This makes us animals.

An unborn baby, embryo, fetus, fertilized egg has all the characteristics of a living organism. That living organism would also be placed in the Kingdom Animalia just like EVERY OTHER human would be placed.

It is a living human.....
 
The 'abortion is genocide' argument is nothing more then an emotional attempt to equate abortion with a concept considered heinous by the vast majority of people in an attempt to attack the pro-choice position. The term genocide has been defined many times on this board, and, without question does not apply to abortion. Those that are aborted are part of no racial, political, ethnic, or cultural group.

You do not need to be part of an organized group in order to suffer from genocide.

You just need to be part of a "racial, political, or cultural group".

Unwanted babies are a part of a "cultural group".

Show how those that are aborted are part of a cultural group. Remember a cultural group is a group that shares behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and both intellectual and artistic work. Please show how those that are aborted fit into this definition.
 
The 'abortion is genocide' argument is nothing more then an emotional attempt to equate abortion with a concept considered heinous by the vast majority of people in an attempt to attack the pro-choice position. The term genocide has been defined many times on this board, and, without question does not apply to abortion. Those that are aborted are part of no racial, political, ethnic, or cultural group.



Show how those that are aborted are part of a cultural group. Remember a cultural group is a group that shares behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and both intellectual and artistic work. Please show how those that are aborted fit into this definition.

Do you know what the 47,000,000 figure represents? That is how many abortions thant have been performed since Roe V Wade was enacted in 1972.....That is a staggering figure.......Does that not get your attention at all...All those lives stuffed out...If that is not genicide I don't know what is......
 
Do you know what the 47,000,000 figure represents? That is how many abortions thant have been performed since Roe V Wade was enacted in 1972.....That is a staggering figure.......Does that not get your attention at all...All those lives stuffed out...If that is not genicide I don't know what is......

The numbers are not the issue. Abortion does not fit the definition of genocide, plain and simple. This argument is a very weak attempt to foster the pro-life position. There are far better and more accurate arguments for that premise.
 
Unwanted babies are a part of a "cultural group".

... :2rofll:

Perhaps you could make the argument that "unwanted babies" often grow up to be part of a "cultural group": the culture of drugs, crime and violence.
Although you'd have a hard time proving that via empirical evidence (I know, because it's been tried here before), because correlation does not equal causation. And because there are so many anecdotal exceptions: abused, neglected, unwanted, abandoned children who grow up to be model citizens; pampered, privileged, and cherished youngsters who grow up to commit heinous crimes.

But fetuses? A culture of fetuses? :lamo
What do they do, communicate with one another telepathically?
Affix phone lines between the belly buttons of their respective mothers, so they can talk to each other?
Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving.*
Culture requires sentience, cognizance, and some level of awareness of one's self, one's surroundings, and others, as well as oneself in relation to others.
Furthermore, culture and language are intrinsically linked; without language, there can be no culture. Culture is a social construct, and socialization requires communication; the ability to communicate with one another.

Even genetically, aborted fetuses are the products of no particular culture.
Approximately 60% are white, and 40% are minority.
The mothers of 57% of them are economically disadvantaged; 43% are of the middle and upper socioeconomic classes.
33% of women who terminate pregnancies are married, 67% are unmarried.
61% already have one or more children; 39% have no children.
19% are teenagers; 56% are in their twenties; 25% are over 30 years old.
43% identify themselves as Protestant, 27% as Catholic. **

As you can see, this is a diverse group. Besides unplanned and unwanted pregnancy, what do you think these girls and women (and their fetuses) could possibly have in common? If they did not terminate their pregnancies, does it seem likely that their children would someday grow up, band together, and form a common "culture"?
It doesn't seem terribly likely to me that they'd have much in common.

:shrug:

* source: Samovar and Porter
** source: Guttmacher Institute
 
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Do you know what the 47,000,000 figure represents? That is how many abortions thant have been performed since Roe V Wade was enacted in 1972.....That is a staggering figure.......Does that not get your attention at all...All those lives stuffed out...If that is not genicide I don't know what is......

The number would be probably 10x that if you figure in all the ones killed by the BC pill.

Ooo.. and just think we could have 47,000,000+ *more* unwanted kids in the country. Wouldn't that just be lovely.
 
The number would be probably 10x that if you figure in all the ones killed by the BC pill.

Shhh. Don't encourage Felicity.
The party line is: contraception doesn't kill Z/E/Fs.
Just imagine what an inconvenient admission that would be, since 98% of all American women have used or are currently using it.

Ooo.. and just think we could have 47,000,000+ *more* unwanted kids in the country. Wouldn't that just be lovely.

I'm imagining it; it's decidedly unlovely.
 
Remember a cultural group is a group that shares behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and both intellectual and artistic work. Please show how those that are aborted fit into this definition.

A cultural group is nothing more than a goup of individuals that share similar traits.

It can be very vauge and include many, many, many different individuals or it can be more specific and focused.

In either case it is nothing more than a group of individuals that share similar traits.

Men can be a cultural group but homosexual men can also be a cultural group and homosexual black men are yet another cultural group.

Aborted fetuses/embryos are a group of individuals that share similar traits.

Fetuses/embryos that are diagnosed with birth defects are a group of individuals that share similar traits.

Fetuses/embryos that are diagnosed with Down Syndrome are a more focused group of individuals that share similar traits.

A cultural group is nothing more than a goup of individuals that share similar traits.
 
Shhh. Don't encourage Felicity.
...I'm watching you...;)
The party line is: contraception doesn't kill Z/E/Fs.
It doesn't kill "Fs"--but it does kill "Zs" znd "Es"

Just imagine what an inconvenient admission that would be, since 98% of all American women have used or are currently using it.
Maybe people would be a bit more responsible. Don't you think it's curious that the "sexual revolution" took place after hormonal contraception became widely available...Other things skyrocketed too, like abortions, divorce, unwed parents, even the incedence of breast cancer and cervical cancer etc......Very curious indeed!



I'm imagining it; it's decidedly unlovely.
Well, see now...we do agree! However--I prefer the truth to the pretty falsehood. And self control to morbid license.--Just my preference, though.:mrgreen:
 
Felicity: It doesn't kill "Fs"--but it does kill "Zs" znd "Es"

Depends on the type.... Does it not?
 
Depends on the type.... Does it not?

Yes--absolutely true. Barrier methods and sterilization aren't lethal--neither is NFP. I assumed she was talking about the hormonal BCs and IUDs because that's what our prior discussions had established. Thanks for clarifying.:2wave:


Oh yeah--if someone is using abortion as BC--then it "contraception" does kill "Fs" too.
 
Maybe people would be a bit more responsible.

No. There'd just be more orphans, more abortions, and we'd all be up to our armpits in unwanted children.
Maybe if sex had anything to do with "responsibility", then outlawing contraception and abortion would stop people from having it.
But the fact is, people are going to get by as best they can. That's human nature.
And especially for the poor, the ones who really can't afford more children, sex is a marketable commodity, often their only one.
And no, I'm not talking about prostitution. I'm talking about the tendency of people to attempt to bond with or ally themselves with another who can help them, who can protect them, who can advance them and their offspring, who can help them obtain what they need, materially, emotionally, physically, and in all ways.
People have this natural tendency to partner up... and not only that, but to make the best and most advantageous match that they can.
It's instinctive, it's human nature, it can't be helped, it will never stop, and why should it? It's a workable system.
It's always been done; up until recently, a woman's male guardian- often her father- made this match for her, aka arranged marriages.
But this wasn't a great system, because not all fathers are trustworthy, and daughters were not generally considered valuable except as commodities, and all too often, fathers chose a match that would be personally advantageous to them- and their daughters' wellbeing be damned.
So now, for the past 150+ years, it's been up to women themselves to make their own matches.
And this is what they're doing. They aren't going to stop, not if you take away their access to medical treatment, not if you endanger their lives, not ever, for any reason. They're not going to stop.
How can they? It's what human beings have done since we crawled out of caves and began to cultivate crops and developed this thing called civilization.
Do you think they're going to stop, because you take away their access to safe, legal medical care?
Are you nuts??
They'll just die, like they always did up until now (and still do, in developing nations).
And the world will be overrun with diseased and impoverished orphans, like it always has been, up until now (and still is, in developing nations).
And the value of women and children will once again be nil, except as commodities- commodities for others to benefit from, not even for themselves- like they always were up until now, and still are in developing nations.

So, in short, no. I don't think your suggestion is helpful, but thanks for putting it out there.
Everybody uses contraception, and no one is particularly interested in stopping; not men, not women.
I find it objectionable that you routinely post disinformation (albeit anecdotal only) about how you experienced unplanned pregnancies as a result of contraceptive failure, but then dispensed with contraception, began using NFP, and were able to control your fertility.
I understand this may be true in your case, but surely you are aware that medical science has researched the matter thoroughly, and that the efficacy rate of NFP is pitiful compared to the efficacy rate of hormonal contraception (which, with perfect use, is around 98%).
I almost feel you ought to attach a little warning to your posts, such as "Results are not typical; consumer results may vary"... or at least, "Don't try this at home, kiddies".

You talk about "responsibility", and then you dispense bad advice and disseminate misinformation that's liable to result in more unwanted pregnancies and more abortions, which is the very thing you're claiming to oppose- if, that is, anybody actually takes you at your word. And there's a good chance they will, seeing as how this is the internet and any thirteen-year-old with a personal computer is able to access this stuff.

Responsibility? What's that?

Barrier methods and sterilization aren't lethal

Sure they are. Most of them contain spermicide.
Same suffix as homicide. Get it?
Just like pesticide kills pests, and homicide kills "hom" (aka "homo sapiens", Latin for "people"), spermicide kills sperm.
Aren't sperm alive?
If not, then why would we need spermicide to kill them?
What have they ever done to you?
They're just doing their job. They're innocent.
How can you justify murdering them?

:doh
 
:shock: Wow...got your ire up eh?;)
No. There'd just be more orphans, more abortions, and we'd all be up to our armpits in unwanted children.
I don't deny that there would be a problem at first. As I've pointed out before--even Case law demonstrates the FACT that contraception has created a culture that ends up relying on abortion for when it fails. The more than 50% of abortions on women who's BC FAILS testifies to that. Casy -v- Planned Parenthood.
Maybe if sex had anything to do with "responsibility", then outlawing contraception and abortion would stop people from having it.
It should have MUCH to do with responsibility. Just because anyone CAN have sex doesn't mean everyone SHOULD be having sex. We could NUKE the Middle East--but we don't, because it would be wrong.

But the fact is, people are going to get by as best they can. That's human nature.
And especially for the poor, the ones who really can't afford more children, sex is a marketable commodity, often their only one.
Do you realize how elitist and denigrating that statement is? Wow... Sometimes you amaze me.

And no, I'm not talking about prostitution. I'm talking about the tendency of people to attempt to bond with or ally themselves with another who can help them, who can protect them, who can advance them and their offspring, who can help them obtain what they need, materially, emotionally, physically, and in all ways.
People have this natural tendency to partner up... and not only that, but to make the best and most advantageous match that they can.
Right.... and that bitch-ho hooks up wit Biggy D da crack dealah so she can obtain what she needs "materially, emotionally, physically, and in all ways." Spare me.:roll: I agree that some do "partner up" as you put it. Many are just getting laid because they are slaves to their baser inclinations.


It's instinctive, it's human nature, it can't be helped, it will never stop, and why should it? It's a workable system.
It's always been done; up until recently, a woman's male guardian- often her father- made this match for her, aka arranged marriages.
But this wasn't a great system, because not all fathers are trustworthy, and daughters were not generally considered valuable except as commodities, and all too often, fathers chose a match that would be personally advantageous to them- and their daughters' wellbeing be damned.
So now, for the past 150+ years, it's been up to women themselves to make their own matches.
And this is what they're doing. They aren't going to stop, not if you take away their access to medical treatment, not if you endanger their lives, not ever, for any reason. They're not going to stop.
How can they? It's what human beings have done since we crawled out of caves and began to cultivate crops and developed this thing called civilization.
Is this more of your own pseudo-sociological self-study stuff? Really woman--you need to get your degree! Academia is screaming for types like you. Your kids are nearly grown--get out there!

Do you think they're going to stop, because you take away their access to safe, legal medical care?
I didn't suggest they shouldn't get check-ups...I think they shouldn't kill their offspring. Duh...:mrgreen:

BTW--how do you account for the huge increases of the detrimental things I listed in a post a few back?

Are you nuts??
Some think so. It's possible, I guess--or does that simply prove I'm sane?

They'll just die, like they always did up until now (and still do, in developing nations).
And the world will be overrun with diseased and impoverished orphans, like it always has been, up until now (and still is, in developing nations).
And the value of women and children will once again be nil, except as commodities- commodities for others to benefit from, not even for themselves- like they always were up until now, and still are in developing nations.
OMG! That's almost as good as the Abu Gairab vomiting comment:rofl

So, in short, no. I don't think your suggestion is helpful, but thanks for putting it out there.
Everybody uses contraception, and no one is particularly interested in stopping; not men, not women.
Duly noted.

I find it objectionable that you routinely post disinformation (albeit anecdotal only) about how you experienced unplanned pregnancies as a result of contraceptive failure, but then dispensed with contraception, began using NFP, and were able to control your fertility.
I understand this may be true in your case, but surely you are aware that medical science has researched the matter thoroughly, and that the efficacy rate of NFP is pitiful compared to the efficacy rate of hormonal contraception (which, with perfect use, is around 98%).
Perhaps you ought to research NFP a little more.

I almost feel you ought to attach a little warning to your posts, such as "Results are not typical; consumer results may vary"... or at least, "Don't try this at home, kiddies".
Don't I also assert that sex is for married adults ready to accept the "possibility" of pregnancy--AND NO ONE ELSE?

You talk about "responsibility", and then you dispense bad advice and disseminate misinformation that's liable to result in more unwanted pregnancies and more abortions, which is the very thing you're claiming to oppose- if, that is, anybody actually takes you at your word. And there's a good chance they will, seeing as how this is the internet and any thirteen-year-old with a personal computer is able to access this stuff.
Ok--If you're not married and don't want kids--DON'T HAVE SEX. The only 100% effective way to avoid pregnancy, is to not "do it."

Now you're going to tell me I'm being unrealistic! What about your irresponsibility in suggesting that that same 13 year old doesn't have the ability to rise above his or her desires and choose to NOT act even when the sexual urge feels so overwhelming. You give them an excuse to go gamble with their future. Don't tell me I'm irresponsible because I suggest people rise to their better selves--that is an empowering position as opposed to your "Aw hell--your gonna do it anyway--here's some contraception ...risk your health and pregnancy so you can have 5 minutes of pleasure with your little girlfriend or boyfriend by pretending your adult who can handle the responsibility."
Responsibility? What's that?
Exactly.
 
risk your health and pregnancy so you can have 5 minutes of pleasure with your little girlfriend or boyfriend

If you still think it's about "pleasure", you're not much better than Jamesrage and his "dirty slut" talk.
I doubt most teenage girls even think sex is fun. Most probably have more fun humping their pillows and stuffed animals.
Even many grown women find sex a tedious chore, and from everyone I've talked to, it seems to me that most females aren't even capable of orgasm with a partner until they're in their twenties, if ever.
Women have sex for many reasons, and many teenage girls do too, and I doubt "pleasure" is high on the list for most of them.
Offhand, I'd venture that loneliness, companionship, status, protection, feeling unsafe, and needing escape are more likely to top the list than "pleasure".
If it were only about pleasure, there's themselves, and other girls.
If you're not living their lives (and I assume the only life you've lived so far is your own), then you have no idea what's driving them, and you have no concept of their circumstances, and you have no idea whether or not it is "responsible" for them to undertake having sex.
If there's one single thing I'm sure of in this world, it's that everybody's got their own story, and it's not much like anybody else's.
You can try to understand another person's life, but that's about the best you can do: try.
And you can try to communicate your own life, motivations, and circumstances to another person, but the best they can do is try to understand.
It's not very likely either one of you will succeed, because we don't really see through our eyes; we see through our experiences.
And what you hear when you listen to someone else telling you about their life is... tainted, for lack of a better word, with your own experiences, as much as you might try to be objective.
And so you'll never really understand, and you'll never really know.
And that goes for us all.

That's why your moral absolutism makes no sense, and is not applicable to anyone's life but your own (and I don't mind saying I have my doubts, even about that).
You don't know what's best for another person to do, because you don't know their circumstances and options.
And even if they told you, you still wouldn't know.
That's why trying to explain oneself is nearly always a fruitless and frustrating venture.
And that's why judging other people is pointless and wrong.
You don't have- and can't have- access to all the information you need, in order to make an informed judgement.
If there were a God, that would be His role, not yours.
Except I'm not persuaded there is a God, or that anyone's watching or keeping track.
So my theory is, just get through life the best you can, and let others do likewise. What's best for you isn't necessarily going to be what's best for them, and vice versa.

I suppose this is what you refer to as moral relativism. That's okay.
 
This is such a simple solution that any 5 year old could see it.
Anyone that does not want abortion, just chip in and pay for these kids until they are 18 years old!
Take your wallets out and put your money where your mouth is!
BTW: YOUR money not American taxpayers money!
 
A cultural group is nothing more than a goup of individuals that share similar traits.

No, the definition is not that simplistic. All blondes are not a cultural group. All people over 6 feet tall are not a cultural group. A cultural group is a group specifically joined by a similar culture. Here is one definition of this word:

[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] cul·ture [/SIZE][/FONT] (k
ubreve.gif
l
prime.gif
ch
schwa.gif
r) [SIZE=-2] KEY [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1] NOUN: [/SIZE]
    1. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
    2. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population.
    3. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression.
    4. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

Wikipedia does a nice job with definition, also:

Culture (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate"), generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activity significance. Different definitions of "culture" reflect different theoretical bases for understanding, or criteria for evaluating, human activity. Most general, the term culture denotes whole product of an individual, group or society of intelligent beings. It includes, technology, art, science, as well as moral systems and characteristic behaviours and habits of the selected intelligent entities. In particular, it has specific more detailed meanings in different domains of human activities. We may notice that different human societies have different cultures, and the personal culture of one individual can be different than another one. Anthropologists most commonly use the term "culture" to refer to the universal human capacity to classify, codify and communicate their experiences symbolically. This capacity has long been taken as a defining feature of the humans.


Note that everything here applies to thought, behavior, beliefs, attitudes, morals, etc... All things that those who are aborted are unable to do.

It can be very vauge and include many, many, many different individuals or it can be more specific and focused.

In either case it is nothing more than a group of individuals that share similar traits.

No it isn't. See above.

Men can be a cultural group but homosexual men can also be a cultural group and homosexual black men are yet another cultural group.

OK, though I don't necessarily agree, let's say your right. All of these groups can have similar morals, similar thoughts, similar behaviors, similar beliefs, etc... Those that are aborted can have none of these things.

Aborted fetuses/embryos are a group of individuals that share similar traits.

Fetuses/embryos that are diagnosed with birth defects are a group of individuals that share similar traits.

But not a cultural group.

[/quote]Fetuses/embryos that are diagnosed with Down Syndrome are a more focused group of individuals that share similar traits.[/quote]

But not a cultural group.

A cultural group is nothing more than a goup of individuals that share similar traits.

Rather than reposting it see the definitions above for the debunking of this. Abortion is not genocide, since, as I have shown, those that are aborted are not a cultural group...they do not share a similar culture.

Of course, you can try to refute this...please describe the culture that those who have been aborted have created.
 
1069: Sure they are. Most of them contain spermicide.
Same suffix as homicide. Get it?
Just like pesticide kills pests, and homicide kills "hom" (aka "homo sapiens", Latin for "people"), spermicide kills sperm.
Aren't sperm alive?
If not, then why would we need spermicide to kill them?
What have they ever done to you?
They're just doing their job. They're innocent.
How can you justify murdering them?


Spermicide does not kill a living organism.

I know this gets confusing for some people.

Sperm is alive but is NOT a living organism.

A fertilized egg is alive AND a living organism.
 
What amazes me is that many abortions are performed when embryo has not even developed a complex nervous system, many abortions are performed when the fetus has not developed self awareness or conciousness.... Yet many pro-lifers will eat animals for food. These animals do have complex nervous systems and can feel pain.

In addition Pro-lifers are correct when they say they human life starts at conception, because by definition if the cells were not alive they would be dead. This is obvious and therefore stupid to state. What pro-lifers fail to do, is to explain why a bundle of cells which has human DNA is so important, compared to the bundle of cells that they killed when the dissenfected the tiolet bowl, or the bundle of cells that they happily chow down to survive....

Question for Pro-lifers, why do you say that the right to life is fundemental? When clearly it cannot be. As embryos are miscarried while, child and mother can still (and in many countries they do) die at birth. By reality of the situation there is no fundemental right to life. If it was the case, no developing child would ever be miscarried.... Do we arrest women that miscarry and charge them with manslaughter?

Next the use of POTENTIAL, is the worst form of intellectual mumbo jumbo. I could potentially become the next Prime Minister of Australia, I could potentially get hit by a bus tomorrow or hit by lightning. Potential is just the probability of an event happening in the future. It is not a gurantee that the evetnt will happen. You cannot grant rights to beings that have potential. Only self-aware beings sentinent intelligence, that exist in this point in time have rights.

I accept that my very existance means that plant life, animal life will have to die so that I can survive. I accept that to kill a bundle of cells, or an embryo that has no concept of self awareness is no different than killing any of the animals or plants that we kill to survive.

Finally if pro-choicers want to advocate rights to unborn children, then be prepared to grant the same fundemental rights to animals and plants.
 
If you still think it's about "pleasure", you're not much better than Jamesrage and his "dirty slut" talk.
I doubt most teenage girls even think sex is fun. Most probably have more fun humping their pillows and stuffed animals.
Even many grown women find sex a tedious chore, and from everyone I've talked to, it seems to me that most females aren't even capable of orgasm with a partner until they're in their twenties, if ever.
Women have sex for many reasons, and many teenage girls do too, and I doubt "pleasure" is high on the list for most of them.
Offhand, I'd venture that loneliness, companionship, status, protection, feeling unsafe, and needing escape are more likely to top the list than "pleasure".
Okay...in light of this perspective....I will amend what your message to 13 year olds amounts to

"Aw hell--your gonna do it anyway--here's some contraception ...risk your health and pregnancy so you can have 5 minutes of DEEP ANGST with your little girlfriend or boyfriend IN A FRUITLESS AND PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO ASSUAGE YOUR FEAR, PAIN AND LONELINESS by pretending you're an adult who can handle the responsibility."

If it were only about pleasure, there's themselves, and other girls.
Or...maybe they could join a school sport--or go to the movies--or learn to play an instrument--maybe they could be KIDS for a while, rather than becoming obsessed with massaging their genitals.:roll:

If you're not living their lives (and I assume the only life you've lived so far is your own), then you have no idea what's driving them, and you have no concept of their circumstances, and you have no idea whether or not it is "responsible" for them to undertake having sex.
I'd wager any day the odds that 13 year olds aren't "ready" for sex. Hell--MOST adults aren't. Responsible sex is where partners are valued for the person they are and the goal of each is to better the other and themselves for the good of the couple. Responsible sex is where partners are in a state in their lives where if a pregnancy were to result, there is a stable family unit established between the two that could support and nourish that new life.

So yeah...you know any married 13 year olds psychologically mature enough to be having "responsible" sex?


If there's one single thing I'm sure of in this world, it's that everybody's got their own story, and it's not much like anybody else's.
You can try to understand another person's life, but that's about the best you can do: try.
And you can try to communicate your own life, motivations, and circumstances to another person, but the best they can do is try to understand.
It's not very likely either one of you will succeed, because we don't really see through our eyes; we see through our experiences.
And what you hear when you listen to someone else telling you about their life is... tainted, for lack of a better word, with your own experiences, as much as you might try to be objective.
And so you'll never really understand, and you'll never really know.
And that goes for us all.
I don't agree. We all are exactly alike in our uniqueness. We are much more alike than different. The circumstances are different and our reactions to them are different, but we all have the same gamut of feelings and motivations from which to choose our path. Because we choose different paths, does not mean we are not on the same ground or in the same forest.

That's why your moral absolutism makes no sense, and is not applicable to anyone's life but your own (and I don't mind saying I have my doubts, even about that).
You don't know what's best for another person to do, because you don't know their circumstances and options.
And even if they told you, you still wouldn't know.
I have never claimed to know the Absolute Truth--only that it exists. You advocate making choices for what's best for an individual based upon what you even describe as a perspective warped by the experiences of life. That is how one gets mired in a rut, or has difficulty moving forward. It's like trying to drive while staring at yourself in the rearview mirror. If you take your eyes off yourself and your own experiences and start directing your course based upon the what lay ahead--it is safer, easier, clearer....you can see the goal not only what lay behind and some vague and blurry conception of what is coming.

That's why trying to explain oneself is nearly always a fruitless and frustrating venture.
And that's why judging other people is pointless and wrong.
You don't have- and can't have- access to all the information you need, in order to make an informed judgment.
We are closer on this point than you think. It's not people that should be judged at all--it's their actions and choices.
If there were a God, that would be His role, not yours.
I agree--He is the one who judges people--precisely because he is Absolute Truth.
 
dottedmint said:
You do not need to be part of an organized group in order to suffer from genocide.
Yes, you do, although there are organizations and then there are organizations. Four friends getting together regularly to play bridge constitute an organization. I see that Captian Courtesy has adequately addressed your faulty claims about the type of group that is susceptible to genocide. Organization of the individuals in that group, however minimal, is required. A cultural group, for example, typically has an organized viewpoint toward certain things (e.g., in China it is normal to dress in white when mourning). Meanwhile, human fetuses have no inter-individual organization of any sort. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. They do not constitute the type of group about which the word "genocide" is applicable, even in theory.

FutureIncoming said:
It is Scientific Fact that an unborn human is only an animal, while it is also Scientific Fact that the average well-developed human is rather more than only an animal, mostly because of intelligence.
dottedmint said:
You've got to be kidding.
Not at all. What I wrote in #29 is exactly why humans invented the words "persons" and "people" to distinguish themselves from ordinary animals. Humans are indeed animals. But because of intelligence, those that have it are more than only animals. Which is basically what I wrote in #29.

By the way, some other Debate between us along this line was done over here, and you have yet to respond to that. I was starting to think that you, like many other pro-lifers, were-defeated-but-refusing-to-admit-it --but if you are going to spout the same nonsense that was refuted before, then you seriously need to respond to that other Message. Otherwise, stop spouting nonsense-that-has-been-proved-to-be-nonsense!

dottedmint said:
What I don't understand is how someone would know that it was me.
One way involves "style". Usually it takes a while before someone gets banned, and that allows the opportunity to post a considerable number of messages. And it is a fact that people have writing styles as distinctive as fingerprints.

FutureIncoming said:
What is relevant is the need to prove the accuracy of one's thoughts.
dottedmint said:
It {{a fetus}} is a living human.....
So? What is the basis for declaring that this particular animal is somehow more important or more special than any of those many other types of animals that we routinely slaughter? I'm aware that for most humans, the basis is the fact that they also possess intelligence. But that aspect is totally lacking in unborn humans, so why do they deserve any consideration beyond that which we give to other ordinary animals?
 
I'd wager any day the odds that 13 year olds aren't "ready" for sex. Hell--MOST adults aren't. Responsible sex is where partners are valued for the person they are and the goal of each is to better the other and themselves for the good of the couple. Responsible sex is where partners are in a state in their lives where if a pregnancy were to result, there is a stable family unit established between the two that could support and nourish that new life.

Wow... what an odd perspective and opinion. To each their own, I guess. But that definition of "responsible sex" is only your opinion. (and one that I can't even come close to comprehending, try as I might)
 
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