Abortion Is Against Science And Common Sense, Its Murder

[Wayne Jr]

Re: Call the question

That is simply not true. PP did/does not have business partners that sell fetal tissue for profit.

Even if PP were selling fetal tissue for profit, so what? That's how research gets done.

 

[code1211]

Palliative care is give or extraordinary medical care is given to any Born Alive infant in distress.

Read the Born Alive Infant protection Act of 2002.

H.R.2175 - 107th Congress (2001-2002): Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2002 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2002 extends legal protection to an infant born alive.

Born Alive" is defined as the complete expulsion of an infant at any stage of development that has a heartbeat, pulsation of the umbilical cord, breath, or voluntary muscle movement, no matter if the umbilical cord has been cut or if the expulsion of the infant was natural, induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

So Northam's understanding of the law does not include this statute.

 

[code1211]

This is a strawman. Your argument has nothing to do with whether or not a woman is giving the decision to have an abortion all the gravity it is due. I am not saying that your point is invalid on the over all topic. Simply that it's irrelevant to the point that you responded to.

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I'm sorry. I am not talking about the decision making process undertaken by the individual mother considering whether or not to have an actual, real world abortion.

I am talking about the political rationalizations employed to justify the legality of the practice. As a society, we like things that are neat and clean. This is not a topic area that is neat and clean.

There is nuance and various layers and considerations that go into this.

 

[code1211]

You said:


Because it is post birth the procedure cannot be an abortion. An abortion is about removing a ZEF from the womb, be it dead or alive in the womb. If it comes out of the womb still alive, an abortion cannot be performed upon the infant because it is no longer in the womb. This is why there is no such thing as a post birth abortion.

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Northam was asked about the Abortion Bill being considered by the Virginia Legislature and his response included his comments on the decisions involved in ending the life of the new born infant.

If he was not discussing abortion, what is the proper name of the act being approved of in his comments?

 

[code1211]

I know you are just being snarky, but I will answer.

Perinatal Palliative care is intended as an option for families who have received a prenatal diagnosis of a severe anatomic and/or genetic defects . If they choose Prenatal Palliative Care, it starts at diagnosis and is there to help support after birth.

So the answer to your snarky question - if a family has chosen Perinatal Palliative care and the fetus is dead inside the womb, the Perinatal Palliative Care team will support the family through the still birth process and after through their grief.

Here is a link to Perinatal Palliative Care - FAQ questions. (although I know you don't have questions, just judgements)

FAQs | Perinatal hospice and palliative care

Northam specifically addressed keeping the new born comfortable. Is it common for a doctor to make a corpse comfortable?

Is it possible for a baby that is dead to be alive?

 

[maquiscat]

I'm sorry. I am not talking about the decision making process undertaken by the individual mother considering whether or not to have an actual, real world abortion.

I am talking about the political rationalizations employed to justify the legality of the practice. As a society, we like things that are neat and clean. This is not a topic area that is neat and clean.

There is nuance and various layers and considerations that go into this.

Which is all well and good. But you responded to my response about whether or not all due gravity was given to such decisions, and your response had nothing to do with mine.

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[code1211]

Re: Beg to differ

Barring a miracle, there are a minimum of three bodies to consider - the two above (the woman & fetus), plus the biological father.

Good point.

 

[maquiscat]

Northam was asked about the Abortion Bill being considered by the Virginia Legislature and his response included his comments on the decisions involved in ending the life of the new born infant.

If he was not discussing abortion, what is the proper name of the act being approved of in his comments?

Hospice care. There is no active killing of the infant. It is made comfortable and allowed to die on its own or the parent(s) can elect to have exhaustive measures taken in attempt to save it.

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[maquiscat]

Northam specifically addressed keeping the new born comfortable. Is it common for a doctor to make a corpse comfortable?

Is it possible for a baby that is dead to be alive?

He was addressing the situation where an abortion was attempted and the infant, now out of the womb, was still alive, particularly where there was the possibility it would not survive with normal infant care, i.e. medical intervention.

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[code1211]

Which is all well and good. But you responded to my response about whether or not all due gravity was given to such decisions, and your response had nothing to do with mine.

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I am sorry that my misunderstanding of what you wrote confused the issue.

 

[code1211]

Hospice care. There is no active killing of the infant. It is made comfortable and allowed to die on its own or the parent(s) can elect to have exhaustive measures taken in attempt to save it.

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It is my understanding that many infants born perfectly healthy need to have care provided or they too will die.

 

[code1211]

He was addressing the situation where an abortion was attempted and the infant, now out of the womb, was still alive, particularly where there was the possibility it would not survive with normal infant care, i.e. medical intervention.

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Did Northam use this phrase: "...it would not survive with normal infant care..."

 

[maquiscat]

It is my understanding that many infants born perfectly healthy need to have care provided or they too will die.

Exhaustive measures, not standard care.

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[maquiscat]

Did Northam use this phrase: "...it would not survive with normal infant care..."

Not sure. I doubt I have read every line of what he said. I am indeed paraphrasing, but he was talking about an infant coming out of the womb, such as from a failed abortion, and is still alive. The child is then made comfortable while the doctor and parent(s) decide what to do. The choices are attempt the save the infant or to let it pass naturally, while easing any pain or discomfort...hospice care.

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[code1211]

Exhaustive measures, not standard care.

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I'm not sure that Northam made that distinction.

 

[code1211]

Not sure. I doubt I have read every line of what he said. I am indeed paraphrasing, but he was talking about an infant coming out of the womb, such as from a failed abortion, and is still alive. The child is then made comfortable while the doctor and parent(s) decide what to do. The choices are attempt the save the infant or to let it pass naturally, while easing any pain or discomfort...hospice care.

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In the most literal interpretation, without assistance, I would also die. Take away the local grocery outlets and I'm toast along with most of my neighbors.

With some embarrassment I'll admit that I start to panic when the Carmel Macchiato Creamer in the kitchen fridge runs low. The most dangerous place on the planet is on a straight line between my fiancee and the nearest Starbucks.

 

[minnie616]

Hospice care. There is no active killing of the infant. It is made comfortable and allowed to die on its own or the parent(s) can elect to have exhaustive measures taken in attempt to save it.

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It is my understanding that many infants born perfectly healthy need to have care provided or they too will die.

Exhaustive measures, not standard care.

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So Northam's understanding of the law does not include this statute.

The Born Alive statute is a Federal Law. It is known.
Northam was talking catastrophic fetal abnormalities and the choices all parents are offered in those cases.

Extraordinary care or palliative care.

And pallitive care , even hospice palliative care is not giving up on the infant.

In fact a key component of palliative care including hospice palliative care is not to hasten the death of the infant.

From the following:

Doesn't hospice mean giving up and losing hope?

No! Hospice and palliative care are about providing a different kind of medical care, with different kinds of hope.

This approach is about providing comfort and dignity both for the person who is terminally ill and for the family and extended circle. Hospice can be a frightening word, but it doesn't mean giving up on your baby.
A core principle of hospice and palliative care is to not hasten death.

(World Health Organization) Palliative care can be provided along with medical intervention to improve the baby's life, sometimes even including surgery, if the intervention would be of benefit and not unnecessarily burdensome to the baby.

Babies with the same condition can vary greatly in their ability to sustain life. A few babies surprise everyone with their strength and are able to "graduate" from end-of-life care and live longer than expected.

Hospice and palliative care follow the baby's lead, honoring the baby's life.

For a baby who is expected to die, parents' original wishes and dreams for their child’s long life are shattered. But their hopes can change direction: for the baby to be treated with dignity, for the baby to be protected until death comes naturally, for the baby's life to be filled with love.

Parents who have chosen perinatal hospice have said that this kind of care helped their hopes be fulfilled.

Read more:

FAQs | Perinatal hospice and palliative care

 

[year2late]

Northam specifically addressed keeping the new born comfortable. Is it common for a doctor to make a corpse comfortable?

Is it possible for a baby that is dead to be alive?

What the hell are you talking about now?

He is speaking to a baby being born alive where the doctors and parents know in advance that the fetus is tragically afflicted with severe anatomic and/or genetic disorders.

Let me repost this ....show me where comfort care is being given to a corpse based on his words.

Northam, a former pediatric neurologist, … said that third-trimester abortions are done with ‘the consent of obviously the mother, with consent of the physician, multiple physicians by the way, and it’s done in cases where there may be severe deformities or there may be a fetus that’s not viable.’ ‘So in this particular example if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen, the infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.’”

BTW, if you have any knowledge of hospice.....you should know before and after death....the family (etc) is part of focus of care. With my mother and brother I was always part of the focus of the hospice team's support and focus. So even after my mother passed away (read corpse) I was offered services (social services and chaplain) based on her case.

 

[year2late]

It is my understanding that many infants born perfectly healthy need to have care provided or they too will die.

Every infant born needs someone caring for him or he will die.

You know we have been talking about later abortions where there has been a prenatal diagnosis of severe anatomic and/or genetic birth defects. These are usually not known about until after the 20 week ultrasound and after other genetic testing was done.

I probably would not choose abortion. I would likely carry to term and based on severity of issues go for comfort care. But at the minimum, I would have the Perinatal Palliative Care team on board based on what my OB and associated specialists advice.

 

[year2late]

Exhaustive measures, not standard care.

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I'm not sure that Northam made that distinction.

He clearly spoke to resuscitation of the infant.

 

[year2late]

Exhaustive measures, not standard care.

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Abortion is against science and its against common sense, its murder plain and simple. We need to ban it altogether, this article hits the nail right on the head.
Penny Nance: World'''s tiniest surviving preemie shows abortion isn’t in line with science or common sense | Fox News

I would like to bring this debate back to the original post.

This extremely premature baby is alive because of availablity and accessability of top notch high level Neonatal Intensive Care.

When we think of the advancements needed to make baby Saybie live...we are talking grants and funding for medical schools, researchers, pharmaceutical companies. hospitials,(and a huge ass ETC) to make that one baby live. We are in a position where we cannot even decide that health care is a right for our citizens!

Think of what would have happened if Baby Saybie was born in an area without a high level Neonatal ICU (not all neonatal ICUs advanced enough to come close to care for a baby like Saybie). The baby would be born and the hospital would do their best. They could wait for a high level neonatal transport which may take hours that that baby does not have.

Baby Saybie is alive because there were billions of tax dollars associated with advances in medical care and hospital facilities to get to this level.

And Saybie was a best case for this early of a delivery. Many survive with extreme defects and need ongoing lifelong care. So if we push for the care of these handicapped individuals across their lifetime....why for heaven's sake is it so difficult to assure medical care for all citizens?

 

[code1211]

The Born Alive statute is a Federal Law. It is known.
Northam was talking catastrophic fetal abnormalities and the choices all parents are offered in those cases.

Extraordinary care or palliative care.

And pallitive care , even hospice palliative care is not giving up on the infant.

In fact a key component of palliative care including hospice palliative care is not to hasten the death of the infant.

From the following:



Read more:

FAQs | Perinatal hospice and palliative care

So, withholding medical care is not a problem. Got it! Illegals are not slighted when turned away from medical care.

Do you see anything, ANYTHING, that is a tad out of sorts with your reasoning in this?

 

[code1211]

What the hell are you talking about now?

He is speaking to a baby being born alive where the doctors and parents know in advance that the fetus is tragically afflicted with severe anatomic and/or genetic disorders.

Let me repost this ....show me where comfort care is being given to a corpse based on his words.

Northam, a former pediatric neurologist, … said that third-trimester abortions are done with ‘the consent of obviously the mother, with consent of the physician, multiple physicians by the way, and it’s done in cases where there may be severe deformities or there may be a fetus that’s not viable.’ ‘So in this particular example if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen, the infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.’”

BTW, if you have any knowledge of hospice.....you should know before and after death....the family (etc) is part of focus of care. With my mother and brother I was always part of the focus of the hospice team's support and focus. So even after my mother passed away (read corpse) I was offered services (social services and chaplain) based on her case.

You need to ask yourself what is being discussed.

Northam was asked about the bill under consideration in the Virginia legislature that removed all restrictions in regard to third term abortions.

It is in that context that any answer following must be considered.

 

[code1211]

Every infant born needs someone caring for him or he will die.

You know we have been talking about later abortions where there has been a prenatal diagnosis of severe anatomic and/or genetic birth defects. These are usually not known about until after the 20 week ultrasound and after other genetic testing was done.

I probably would not choose abortion. I would likely carry to term and based on severity of issues go for comfort care. But at the minimum, I would have the Perinatal Palliative Care team on board based on what my OB and associated specialists advice.

I see where your misunderstanding arises.

We are discussing the response of Governor Northam to the question specifically aimed at revealing his feeling on the bill under consideration by the Virginia legislature eliminating any restrictions on third term abortions.

Any response he made was made in response to that question.

If you would like to discuss something else, please feel free to do so.

 

[code1211]

He clearly spoke to resuscitation of the infant.

Did he mention at any time the distinction between providing either exhaustive or standard care?

In my very limited experience with the care of children, the level of care that is "standard" can change radically based only on the condition of the child being cared for.