Abortion debate still the same as always

[AGENT J]

Over the many years here when HONEST, educated objective people to talk abortion right, left and center, prochoice and prolife they agree on the facts.

The factual foundation of abortion is the same no matter what side you are one.

Each side picks and chooses what life they value more and which life they value less. This fact will never change.
The only SUBJECTIVE difference is when and why. This fact has been recognized time and time again by honest people on all sides. If you arent there yet, well, you have your answer who you are.

Unfortunately, abortion is unique in the way that there is no way to have equal rights on the topic. Because one life resides inside another its factually impossible.


So for me I go with whats closest. RvW is based on 24 weeks and 50% viability. its also about in the middle of the pregnancy so I'm good with it.
Im always going to value the life of the already born viable mother who is a persona d citizen in the majority of case over the unknown entity that is not viable and might even abort itself.
Others are free to value the unborn over the woman if they want but that should never be forced by the government
Im never going to support the government violating womans current legal, civil, human and equal rights and treating them as a lesser and second-class citizen.

It doesn't get more American than pro-choice
pro choice allows Jane and Sara to both choose and do what they want.
pro-life allows jane to force sara to do what jane wants against her will risking her health and life . . .no thanks

Theres very good reason why the vast majority of first world countries with governments based on rights and freedoms have laws that lean prochoice
and its also obvious why the countries that have laws that lean pro-life and they are typically dictatorships, communists, theocracies etc and are NOT governments based on rights and freedoms

Ill be sticking with being pro-woman and being pro-choice.
if others feel differently that's fine by me, you have the choice to do as you wish too and I want it to stay that way. I will never however support you forcing others.

To try and make this country go backwards on an issue as such as woman rights will never work out in the long run.

 

[bluesmoke]

Over the many years here when HONEST, educated objective people to talk abortion right, left and center, prochoice and prolife they agree on the facts.

The factual foundation of abortion is the same no matter what side you are one.

Each side picks and chooses what life they value more and which life they value less. This fact will never change.
The only SUBJECTIVE difference is when and why. This fact has been recognized time and time again by honest people on all sides. If you arent there yet, well, you have your answer who you are.

Unfortunately, abortion is unique in the way that there is no way to have equal rights on the topic. Because one life resides inside another its factually impossible.


So for me I go with whats closest. RvW is based on 24 weeks and 50% viability. its also about in the middle of the pregnancy so I'm good with it.
Im always going to value the life of the already born viable mother who is a persona d citizen in the majority of case over the unknown entity that is not viable and might even abort itself.
Others are free to value the unborn over the woman if they want but that should never be forced by the government
Im never going to support the government violating womans current legal, civil, human and equal rights and treating them as a lesser and second-class citizen.

It doesn't get more American than pro-choice
pro choice allows Jane and Sara to both choose and do what they want.
pro-life allows jane to force sara to do what jane wants against her will risking her health and life . . .no thanks

Theres very good reason why the vast majority of first world countries with governments based on rights and freedoms have laws that lean prochoice
and its also obvious why the countries that have laws that lean pro-life and they are typically dictatorships, communists, theocracies etc and are NOT governments based on rights and freedoms

Ill be sticking with being pro-woman and being pro-choice.
if others feel differently that's fine by me, you have the choice to do as you wish too and I want it to stay that way. I will never however support you forcing others.

To try and make this country go backwards on an issue as such as woman rights will never work out in the long run.

"Im never going to support the government violating womans current legal, civil, human and equal rights..."

Quite a number of states have few, like 1 - 3, clinics. That is a current restriction to access to exercise a constitutional right.

"...and treating them as a lesser and second-class citizen."

Women are treated as second-class citizens in serious ways, such as lower pay and rape, than limiting their right to choose what is done with their body.

 

[Gordy327]

Over the many years here when HONEST, educated objective people to talk abortion right, left and center, prochoice and prolife they agree on the facts.

The factual foundation of abortion is the same no matter what side you are one.

Each side picks and chooses what life they value more and which life they value less. This fact will never change.
The only SUBJECTIVE difference is when and why. This fact has been recognized time and time again by honest people on all sides. If you arent there yet, well, you have your answer who you are.

Unfortunately, abortion is unique in the way that there is no way to have equal rights on the topic. Because one life resides inside another its factually impossible.


So for me I go with whats closest. RvW is based on 24 weeks and 50% viability. its also about in the middle of the pregnancy so I'm good with it.
Im always going to value the life of the already born viable mother who is a persona d citizen in the majority of case over the unknown entity that is not viable and might even abort itself.
Others are free to value the unborn over the woman if they want but that should never be forced by the government
Im never going to support the government violating womans current legal, civil, human and equal rights and treating them as a lesser and second-class citizen.

It doesn't get more American than pro-choice
pro choice allows Jane and Sara to both choose and do what they want.
pro-life allows jane to force sara to do what jane wants against her will risking her health and life . . .no thanks

Theres very good reason why the vast majority of first world countries with governments based on rights and freedoms have laws that lean prochoice
and its also obvious why the countries that have laws that lean pro-life and they are typically dictatorships, communists, theocracies etc and are NOT governments based on rights and freedoms

Ill be sticking with being pro-woman and being pro-choice.
if others feel differently that's fine by me, you have the choice to do as you wish too and I want it to stay that way. I will never however support you forcing others.

To try and make this country go backwards on an issue as such as woman rights will never work out in the long run.

I find viability to be a reasonable compromise and cutoff point for elective abortions. Of course, some prolifers are not interested in compromise and only in extremes.

 

[AGENT J]

"Im never going to support the government violating womans current legal, civil, human and equal rights..."

Quite a number of states have few, like 1 - 3, clinics. That is a current restriction to access to exercise a constitutional right.

"...and treating them as a lesser and second-class citizen."

Women are treated as second-class citizens in serious ways, such as lower pay and rape, than limiting their right to choose what is done with their body.

I rank all those the same and I don't support any of them, certainly don't see forcing a women to risk her health and life against her will as less serious than lower pay

 

[AGENT J]

I find viability to be a reasonable compromise and cutoff point for elective abortions. Of course, some prolifers are not interested in compromise and only in extremes.

agreed SOME dont care about anything other than forcing their views on others

 

[CaughtInThe]

you need to add in the privacy aspect.

because, as we've seen since the leak, a ton of people are showing us that they care not about privacy (which becomes VERY interesting on other hot topics).

 

[AGENT J]

you need to add in the privacy aspect.

because, as we've seen since the leak, a ton of people are showing us that they care not about privacy (which becomes VERY interesting on other hot topics).

I mean its a factor, no doubt
and it matters to many people and it most certainly is an important aspect

I was just saying for me its not even needed, its just another and EXTRA reason why id never stop supporting womans rights

 

[CaughtInThe]

I mean its a factor, no doubt
and it matters to many people and it most certainly is an important aspect

I was just saying for me its not even needed, its just another and EXTRA reason why id never stop supporting womans rights

if you leave the privacy aspect out then it's simply a never ending debate on when life starts which people will never agree on.

if they see that they can lose privacy on other things (regardless of how much THIS supreme court is lying) then it become personal to them.

 

[AGENT J]

if you leave the privacy aspect out then it's simply a never ending debate on when life starts which people will never agree on.

I dont see it that way at all
for those that don't care about woman rights it will always be a never-ending debate
the praviacy isn't needed at all to support womans rights its just ANOTHER right
when life starts is meaningless to the debate of when one chose one life over the other when and why

if they see that they can lose privacy on other things (regardless of how much THIS supreme court is lying) then it become personal to them.

you are looking for logic where there is none
many NORMAL prolifers agree with the FACTS in the OP, the ones that are not normal have no interest in logic or other discussions

 

[Old 'N Chill]

I have never been pregnant, so never had to make the choice of having a baby or terminating a pregnancy. No family or friends have ever had an abortion either, to my knowledge. Since I was a kid I would hear stories about back room, alley, wire hanger aborthions and women who had died from them....I thought that was horrific.

I absolutely am pro-choice and pro-women's rights in the USA. Abortion and birth control should be legal and available to all Americans who need or want them. It should not be left to the states either, IMO. No backward red state should be allowed to withhold any medications or health care to any of its residents or visitors.

It seems to me that the right wing people who want to take away a woman's right, especially one that has been in place for decades, are basically religious fanatics and want to rule our country by their Christian bible. But funny many of those same people are for the death penalty and don't care if babies die once they are born, they don't want to make medical, financial, nutrition aid available for those mothers after the fact if needed.

That is not the America I know or want. They can make the choices to what they want for their own bodies only, not all of their fellow Americans.

Birth control and women's health needs should be available and easily accessed in all states in our country. I think it should be easier to access and less restrictive than it is now.

It's very sad and backward that we have to have this conversation again in 2022. The Trump Party Republicans seem hell-bent on taking away the rights and freedoms of women, people of color, LGBTQ, non-Christians, etc. This is not America, this is not democracy.

 

[Blue Dog]

It’s nearly impossible to compromise on abortion. Ironic given the number of perspectives on the issue…

 

[AGENT J]

It’s nearly impossible to compromise on abortion. Ironic given the number of perspectives on the issue…

Whats funny is the compromise is what we have now IMO . . . . On paper its in the middle of viability. IN reality its even less because less than 1% happen after 21 weeks

jan does what she wants
sara does what she wants

that's compromise


but some don't want that compromise. They want to control and oppression.

 

[Atreus21]

Over the many years here when HONEST, educated objective people to talk abortion right, left and center, prochoice and prolife they agree on the facts.

The factual foundation of abortion is the same no matter what side you are one.

Each side picks and chooses what life they value more and which life they value less. This fact will never change.

Not so. Both lives are valued equally, but only one life is jeopardized by necessity. If it is a rare case where both lives are threatened, almost everyone defers to the mother's wishes. Apart from that, the logic is straightforward.

Mother chooses not to abort. She lives and so does the baby.
Mother chooses to abort. She lives and the baby dies.

In both cases the mother lives. Her death is not the deliberate object of childbirth. But the child's death is the deliberate object of abortion.

 

[AGENT J]

Not so.

sorry its a fact

Both lives are valued equally, but only one life is jeopardized by necessity.

since one resides inside the other this cant be done
Pregancy is always a risk, some times very small sometimes very large

Mother chooses not to abort. She lives and so does the baby.

100% factually false, plenty of women have died and or had health complications due to pregnancy/giving birth

Mother chooses to abort. She lives and the baby dies.

also 100% factually false
abortion is also preformed when the ZEF is already dead, the ZEF has also lived after the abortion hence why there are laws in place for such cases
rare but still a fact

In both cases the mother lives.

again factually wrong

Her death is not the deliberate object of childbirth.

meaningless to her rights

But the child's death is the deliberate object of abortion.

already proven factually wrong

the fact remains
The factual foundation of abortion is the same no matter what side you are one.
Each side picks and chooses what life they value more and which life they value less. This fact will never change.

 

[Old 'N Chill]

Each side picks and chooses what life they value more and which life they value less. This fact will never change.

And the one side has no value for that 'life' after a baby is born and living outside of the mother. That fact never seems to change either.

 

[Atreus21]

sorry its a fact

since one resides inside the other this cant be done
Pregancy is always a risk, some times very small sometimes very large.

100% factually false, plenty of women have died and or had health complications due to pregnancy/giving birth

also 100% factually false
abortion is also preformed when the ZEF is already dead, the ZEF has also lived after the abortion hence why there are laws in place for such cases
rare but still a fact

again factually wrong

meaningless to her rights

already proven factually wrong

the fact remains
The factual foundation of abortion is the same no matter what side you are one.
Each side picks and chooses what life they value more and which life they value less. This fact will never change.

That's simply not true. We value their lives equally. If it's a choice of who has to die, most reasonable people support abortion, or at least defer to the mother's wishes. Abortion is almost never that, though. The vast majority of the time, no one has to die.

A successful abortion means the baby is deliberately killed. Banning abortion does not mean deliberately killing the mother.

 

[BlueTex]

 

[AGENT J]

That's simply not true.

again facts wont change based on your claims

We value their lives equally.

cant be down, based on the fact medical science and the location of the ZEF
you also dont speck for prolifers, many admit to this fact, they are the honest, topically educated and objective ones

A successful abortion means the baby is deliberately killed.

100% factually false the success of the abortion has ZERO to do with the life of the ZEF LMAO this fact will never change
abortion is a medical procedure to stop PREGNANCY, hence why it is still an abortion when the ZEF is dead and hasnt expelled itself.

Banning abortion does not mean deliberately killing the mother.

Thanks for that meaningless strawman but it doesnt change anything nor did i ever say anything like that
banning abortion violates women's rights and treats her as a lesser

 

[bluesmoke]

I find viability to be a reasonable compromise and cutoff point for elective abortions. Of course, some prolifers are not interested in compromise and only in extremes.

What extreme is that which "some prolifers" want? If more than 24 wks, how many?

 

[bluesmoke]

I rank all those the same and I don't support any of them, certainly don't see forcing a women to risk her health and life against her will as less serious than lower pay

Better wording for what I meant by my post should have been "Women are treated as second-class citizens in other serious ways, such as lower pay and rape, beside limiting their right to choose what is done with their body.

 

[Gordy327]

What extreme is that which "some prolifers" want? If more than 24 wks, how many?

Some Prolifers want less than less than 24 weeks, such as 15 weeks or at fetal heart detection, or even outright banned. But no one has put forth a good reason for doing so.

 

[AGENT J]

Better wording for what I meant by my post should have been "Women are treated as second-class citizens in other serious ways, such as lower pay and rape, beside limiting their right to choose what is done with their body.

Gotcha!

 

[AGENT J]

Some Prolifers want less than less than 24 weeks, such as 15 weeks or at fetal heart detection, or even outright banned. But no one has put forth a good reason for doing so.

Exactly
In fact SOME have so much ignorance on the subject they dont even know when abortions actually happen or how many Planned Parenthoods dont even do abortions.
FOr so many its about hate and or control, nothing else

 

[AGENT J]

Ita already foul and repugnant enough to shit on women rights now there are politicians that don't even want to allow exceptions for rape . . . .

how are some people so anti rights and freedom, it blows my mind

 

[uptower]