Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

I cannot even believe that was put out there. I will bet a nickel that she believes that premature menopause only causes nuisance hot flashes and has no clue of the medical aspects of premature menopause.

Yeah, I was gobsmacked, too.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Telling a doctor what procedures s/he can or cannot do IS practicing medicine, IMO.

That does not qualify as "practicing medicine."

Our laws regulate many aspects of medical care. We have laws that do not allow a physician to prescribe certain drugs here in the US. Those laws are intended to protect the citizens, although some question them. We have laws that regulate whether a surgical procedure can be done on an outpatient basis. We have laws that regulate whether a doctor can transplant an animal organ into a human's body. We have laws that FORCE doctors to treat patients in an emergency care setting. We have laws that restrict numerous types of procedures, and we have laws that deal with bioethics, such as when it's okay to disconnect life-sustaining measures.

None of those laws fall under the heading of "practicing medicine."

When it comes to late-term abortion, society at large recognizes that the entity growing in a woman's body (call it whatever you wish) - as it gets closer and closer to full term and birth -- becomes more valuable as a human in its own right.

The vast majority of citizens, both male and female agree with that, which is why we have restrictions on late-term abortion.

Being prochoice does not mean one has to have taken leave of all their senses. It is not sensible not to regulate late-term abortions.

"But it's soooooo rare." I keep hearing. That's a cop-out. And an intellectual failure.

Cloning humans is also very, very rare, maybe non-existent, but you know what? It's prohibited. And, why do you suppose that is?

I am prochoice, but I am not anti-intellectual. And, that's what prochoicers are who refuse to admit that late-term abortion should be regulated. They are anti-intellectual and they are anti-science. It's just that simple.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

That does not qualify as "practicing medicine."

Our laws regulate many aspects of medical care. We have laws that do not allow a physician to prescribe certain drugs here in the US. Those laws are intended to protect the citizens, although some question them. We have laws that regulate whether a surgical procedure can be done on an outpatient basis. We have laws that regulate whether a doctor can transplant an animal organ into a human's body. We have laws that FORCE doctors to treat patients in an emergency care setting. We have laws that restrict numerous types of procedures, and we have laws that deal with bioethics, such as when it's okay to disconnect life-sustaining measures.

None of those laws fall under the heading of "practicing medicine."

When it comes to late-term abortion, society at large recognizes that the entity growing in a woman's body (call it whatever you wish) - as it gets closer and closer to full term and birth -- becomes more valuable as a human in its own right.

The vast majority of citizens, both male and female agree with that, which is why we have restrictions on late-term abortion.

Being prochoice does not mean one has to have taken leave of all their senses. It is not sensible not to regulate late-term abortions.

"But it's soooooo rare." I keep hearing. That's a cop-out. And an intellectual failure.

Cloning humans is also very, very rare, maybe non-existent, but you know what? It's prohibited. And, why do you suppose that is?

I am prochoice, but I am not anti-intellectual. And, that's what prochoicers are who refuse to admit that late-term abortion should be regulated. They are anti-intellectual and they are anti-science. It's just that simple.

It is not a cop out ...it is the truth.
I agree the vast majority of people want restrictions on late term abortions but they are not needed and Roe allows each state decide if they wish to ban to abortions past viability.

Late term abortions are rare as I have said.
No sane woman carries a pregnancy 24 weeks and then wants to abort without a medical reason ( unless perhaps they are a victim who was held against their will ). It just does not happen. Also no sane doctor would abort that late in a pregnancy, as the mothers life is at great risk and the doctor has to be highly trained for a late term ( past 24 weeks ) abortion.

As I several states do not have gestational limits yet late term abortions are still very rare ( about 100 a year in total 50 states combined) .

There are only 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics that perform abortions past 24 weeks.
Even hospitals will not perform abortions past 24 weeks to save the woman's life.
Hospitals will have one of the 4 late term specialists perform the abortion or will do a stat c-section and hope.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

It is not a cop out ...it is the truth.
I agree the vast majority of people want restrictions on late term abortions but they are not needed and Roe allows each state decide if they wish to ban to abortions past viability.

Those who support allowing each state to decide, in effect DO support the bans those states enact.

Late term abortions are rare as I have said.
No sane woman carries a pregnancy 24 weeks and then wants to abort without a medical reason ( unless perhaps they are a victim who was held against their will ). It just does not happen. Also no sane doctor would abort that late in a pregnancy, as the mothers life is at great risk and the doctor has to be highly trained for a late term ( past 24 weeks ) abortion.

It happens. And yes, it is performed at a risk to the woman. Just this year a young woman who was at least 6 months pregnant died during the procedure.
Woman Dies In Late Term Abortion | The Daily Caller

That specific clinic, by the way, describes the procedure used to terminate third-trimester abortions here:
https://southwesternwomens.com/third-trimester/

I'm not sure how someone who is obviously passionate about this issue appears to be in the dark about certain aspects.

As I several states do not have gestational limits yet late term abortions are still very rare ( about 100 a year in total 50 states combined).

There are only 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics that perform abortions past 24 weeks.
Even hospitals will not perform abortions past 24 weeks to save the woman's life.
Hospitals will have one of the 4 late term specialists perform the abortion or will do a stat c-section and hope.

It's difficult to find recent data, but the Guttmacher Institute claimed that in 1997, there were 850 abortions performed between 25-26 weeks and an additional 320 after 26 weeks.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120322194027/http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib14.html

That's a total of 1,025 abortions after 24 weeks in that year. I know abortions have been dropping off, so it's probably lower now, but it's certainly higher than your claim.

Guttmacher says about 1.5% of abortions occur after 21 weeks, but they have no current numbers for after 24 weeks.

The deal is -- women are seeking abortions after 20 weeks and not necessarily for medical reasons.

Results: Women aged 20–24 were more likely than those aged 25–34 to have a later abortion (odds ratio, 2.7), and women who discovered their pregnancy before eight weeks’ gestation were less likely than others to do so (0.1). Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2013/11/who-seeks-abortions-or-after-20-weeks

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Those who support allowing each state to decide, in effect DO support the bans those states enact.



It happens. And yes, it is performed at a risk to the woman. Just this year a young woman who was at least 6 months pregnant died during the procedure.
Woman Dies In Late Term Abortion | The Daily Caller

The article says the woman was 23 weeks not over 24 weeks.

Also we do not know the reason but since doctor's usually perform ultrasounds between 18 and 20 weeks looking for fetal or genetic malformations most abortions past 18 weeks are medical reasons. The family and doctor only have a few weeks to decide since most states ban fetal abnormaile abortions after 24 weeks ( some after 20 weeks )

That specific clinic, by the way, describes the procedure used to terminate third-trimester abortions here:
https://southwesternwomens.com/third-trimester/

That clinic is one of three clinics that performs abortions past 24 weeks.
There is another in the Northeast and another in Arizonia I think ( I can look it up )

New Mexico is one of the states that has no gestational limit on abortions and has one of the 3 third trimester abortion clinics in the USA.

There were 4 abortions past 28 weeks in 2014 and that dropped 2 abortions in 2015.

From : an article

... just four New Mexico state residents had abortions at 28 weeks or later in 2014, and that dropped to two in 2015. And 28 weeks is still months away from a 38- to 40-week full-term pregnancy. New Mexico also follows a counter-intuitive national trend: states with the fewest restrictions on abortion have shown some of the biggest declines in the number of abortions. As the Albuquerque Journal reported earlier this year, abortions in the state have dropped by 24% since 2010.

https://www.abqjournal.com/743253/more-women-coming-to-nm-for-abortions.html

I'm not sure how someone who is obviously passionate about this issue appears to be in the dark about certain aspects.

It's difficult to find recent data, but the Guttmacher Institute claimed that in 1997, there were 850 abortions performed between 25-26 weeks and an additional 320 after 26 weeks.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120322194027/http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib14.html

That's a total of 1,025 abortions after 24 weeks in that year. I know abortions have been dropping off, so it's probably lower now, but it's certainly higher than your claim.

Guttmacher says about 1.5% of abortions occur after 21 weeks, but they have no current numbers for after 24 weeks.

I have posted the Fox link from 2003 that states 100 abortions a year after 24 weeks.

The deal is -- women are seeking abortions after 20 weeks and not necessarily for medical reasons.

How do you know they are not for medical reasons?
As I said the ultrasounds for fetal malformations are not performed until 18 to 20 weeks giving the woman a few weeks to have more tests and to arrange an abortion if she to chooses to abort for fetal medical reasons

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2013/11/who-seeks-abortions-or-after-20-weeks

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

The article says the woman was 23 weeks not over 24 weeks.

Look again -- the woman was 23. That was her age. She was at least 6 months pregnant. If she was just 6 months pregnant -- she would have been about 26 weeks pregnant. She could have been further along.

Also we do not know the reason but since doctor's usually perform ultrasounds between 18 and 20 weeks looking for fetal or genetic malformations most abortions past 18 weeks are medical reasons. The family and doctor only have a few weeks to decide since most states ban fetal abnormaile abortions after 24 weeks ( some after 20 weeks )

Yet, they do happen, and because of that -- and the risk to the mother -- they should be regulated.

That clinic is one of three clinics that performs abortions past 24 weeks.
There is another in the Northeast and another in Arizonia I think ( I can look it up )

I've also heard that in some cases hospitals will abort in late term (by induction), but it's not recorded as such, but rather as a still birth. I'm sure a lot of things slip under the radar. But, by regulating a potentially dangerous procedure, we keep it safer for the woman.

I have posted the Fox link from 2003 that states 100 abortions a year after 24 weeks.

In light of the previous stats, that seems like a bogus number.

How do you know they are not for medical reasons?
As I said the ultrasounds for fetal malformations are not performed until 18 to 20 weeks giving the woman a few weeks to have more tests and to arrange an abortion if she to chooses to abort for fetal medical reasons

I don't know what the reasons -- but the Guttmacher institute did the survey on women who aborted after 20 weeks and published the results. Why would those trends differ significantly just a few weeks later? These were the cited reasons again:

Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Look again -- the woman was 23. That was her age. She was at least 6 months pregnant. If she was just 6 months pregnant -- she would have been about 26 weeks pregnant. She could have been further along.

I did misread the article and thought the age of the women was weeks pregnant.

Yet, they do happen, and because of that -- and the risk to the mother -- they should be regulated.

Abortion clinics are inspected and regulated.

I've also heard that in some cases hospitals will abort in late term (by induction), but it's not recorded as such, but rather as a still birth. I'm sure a lot of things slip under the radar. But, by regulating a potentially dangerous procedure, we keep it safer for the woman.

Inducing labor when a fetus is not viable will cause stillbirth.
I was talking about an abortion procedure after 24 weeks when there is a 50 percent chance of survival outside the womb.

You seem to think 20 weeks is late term abortion but a 20 week old even delivered by a stat c-section will not survive.

In light of the previous stats, that seems like a bogus number.

I don't know what the reasons -- but the Guttmacher institute did the survey on women who aborted after 20 weeks and published the results. Why would those trends differ significantly just a few weeks later? These were the cited reasons again:

Those are reasons for elective abortions that are not medical reasons.

Again you moved the goal posts and are now claiming 20 weeks as late term when I stated abortions after 24 weeks are for medical reasons.

Just want to add the names of doctor's and states that perform abortions past 24 weeks (late term abortions ) are:

The doctors are Dr. Hern in Colorado, Dr. Carhart in Maryland, and Dr. Boyd and Dr. Robinson in New Mexico

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

I did misread the article and thought the age of the women was weeks pregnant.


Abortion clinics are inspected and regulated.



Inducing labor when a fetus is not viable will cause stillbirth.
I was talking about an abortion procedure after 24 weeks when there is a 50 percent chance of survival outside the womb.

You seem to think 20 weeks is late term abortion but a 20 week old even delivered by a stat c-section will not survive.


Those are reasons for elective abortions that are not medical reasons.

Again you moved the goal posts and are now claiming 20 weeks as late term when I stated abortions after 24 weeks are for medical reasons.

Just want to add the names of doctor's and states that perform abortions past 24 weeks (late term abortions ) are:

The doctors are Dr. Hern in Colorado, Dr. Carhart in Maryland, and Dr. Boyd and Dr. Robinson in New Mexico

I'm just repeating what the Guttmacher Institute is citing. And, they're calling anything past 20 weeks a late-term abortion.

You're calling it 24, I understand that. New technology is giving 22 week fetuses a 25% chance of survival.

That's still not quite what the original discussion was about, which is that some here advocate allowing a woman to abort as late as a week or a day before her pregnancy for any reason.

I'm not really questioning second trimester abortions, although it's obvious that more care should be taken. I'm saying that late-term, and I'm generally talking about third-trimester, even late third trimester abortions, should be regulated.

Because we DO have people like the poster here who made that claim, we know that there are people out there who would abort at very late term. Not only am I uncomfortable with that (even if it's extremely rare), I think we need to set regulations to ensure it doesn't happen. It's simply not ethical at that stage unless there is a medical reason. Then, of course, it's permissible.

As far as I know -- my ideas are supported by more than 80% of Americans, so I think those who disagree are in the minority.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

...

In light of the previous stats, that seems like a bogus number.

:

I posted this earlier in this thread:
I have not read about any abortions past the age of viability ( 24 weeks ) that were not for medical reasons.

Recorded Kansas abortion stats 22 weeks and later back Me up.

-----------------------

Actually legal late term abortions are very rare and they are extreme cases.

As I noted before about 100 abortions past 24 weeks total ( all 50 states ) occur in the USA.

The extreme cases are when the woman's life is at risk or irreparable damage to a major bodiliy function would occur if the pregnacy were allowed to continue, where the fetus will be stillborn or is so malformed it will only live a few minutes or hours. ( if the fetus dies within the womb and is not expelled in a timely manner there is a high risk a life threatening infection will occur. )

------
Doctors have to be highly trained and skilled perform late term abortions.

There are only 4 clinic doctors who perform abortions at or after viabilty and only 3 clinics in the USA for these extreme cases.

Kansas was on those states in 2008.

OB/GYNs from all over the USA would send their patients with these extreme cases to Kansas in 2008.
Kansas recorded all abortions at or after 22 weeks gestation (24 weeks gestation is the limit of viability and the Fox article said less than 100 US abortions after 24 weeks ) in 2008.

There were 323 abortions at or after 22 weeks gestation in Kansas during 2008.

132 were not viable.
They would be stillborn or were so malformed thy would only live a few minutes or hours.

The other 191 abortions were because there would be irreparable damage to a major bodiliy function if the pregnancy were allowed to continue.

They were extreme cases.

The Kansas stats from pages 8 and 9 of this PDF file

http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/abortion_sum/08itop1.pdf

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

I'm just repeating what the Guttmacher Institute is citing. And, they're calling anything past 20 weeks a late-term abortion.

You're calling it 24, I understand that. New technology is giving 22 week fetuses a 25% chance of survival.

Yes, 22 week fetus now has about a 25 percent chance of survival . That's why at 22 weeks and past a doctor evaluates if the fetus is variable before an abortion is performed even for medical reasons. See my 2008 Kansas abortion stat link on pages 8 and 9

http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/abortion_sum/08itop1.pdf

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Actually legal late term abortions are very rare and they are extreme cases.

As I noted before about 100 abortions past 24 weeks total ( all 50 states ) occur in the USA.

Yes, you've said that many times, but I can find no link to the article you mention. I looked on every page of this thread and could not find it. If it's in another thread somewhere, I'm sure I'll never find it - nor do I have time to look. I searched the Fox News site and did not find it.

If I can't find the article, there is no way to locate the original source of the statistics. One thing I do know -- both Guttmacher and the CDC have higher numbers, but they only cite "after 21 weeks." If those two don't have the stats, I'm not sure who else could have them.

If you can find the article you keep mentioning, I would like to read it.

Scroll down to Table 7 on this CDC site to see their "after 21" numbers per state.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6410a1.htm?s_cid=ss6410a1_e

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Yes, you've said that many times, but I can find no link to the article you mention. I looked on every page of this thread and could not find it. If it's in another thread somewhere, I'm sure I'll never find it - nor do I have time to look. I searched the Fox News site and did not find it.

If I can't find the article, there is no way to locate the original source of the statistics. One thing I do know -- both Guttmacher and the CDC have higher numbers, but they only cite "after 21 weeks." If those two don't have the stats, I'm not sure who else could have them.

If you can find the article you keep mentioning, I would like to read it.

Scroll down to Table 7 on this CDC site to see their "after 21" numbers per state.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6410a1.htm?s_cid=ss6410a1_e

Again you are confusing after 21 weeks with after 24 weeks.

From a Fox News article:

June 17, 2003
...
Of the 1.6 million abortions performed in the U.S. each year, 91 percent are performed during the first trimester (12 or fewer weeks' gestation); 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation),

Fast Facts: U.S. Abortion Statistics | Fox News

Fast Facts: U.S. Abortion Statistics | Fox News

The stats since then have changed.
By 2012 the numbers of abortion were less than 1.2 million.
In 2014 the CDC reported less than I million.

Fewer than I.3 percent of legal abortions took place between 21 weeks gestation and 24 weeks gestation.

Some for maternal health , more for fetal health since fetal abnormalies usually do not show up until the 18-20 gestational week ultrasound. That only gives the parents with input from the doctor and tests to decide if they want to terminate the pregnancy since viabily usually occurs between 22 and 24 weeks.

Now I have thinking about it and I am willing to concede that maybe there was a misprint in the article and the actual number was at that time was 1000( one thousand ) instead of 100.
But even that would less now.

Remember my Kansas link ... there were 323 abortions at or past 22 weeks in 2008.
Kansas was one of three states that did late term abortions that year so if the two performed about 300 to 350 abortions that year it would put the number near 1000 after 22 weeks performed at those 3 clinics.

Remember all the abortions Kansas in 2008 were for medical reasons.

Some of the fetuses were not viable ( they were dead, dying, or would not survive outside the womb )
The other abortions were because the woman would have irreparable damage to a major bodily function if the pregnancy continued.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

That does not qualify as "practicing medicine."

Yeah, it does.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Again you are confusing after 21 weeks with after 24 weeks.

From a Fox News article:




Fast Facts: U.S. Abortion Statistics | Fox News

Fast Facts: U.S. Abortion Statistics | Fox News

The stats since then have changed.
By 2012 the numbers of abortion were less than 1.2 million.
In 2014 the CDC reported less than I million.

Fewer than I.3 percent of legal abortions took place between 21 weeks gestation and 24 weeks gestation.

Some for maternal health , more for fetal health since fetal abnormalies usually do not show up until the 18-20 gestational week ultrasound. That only gives the parents with input from the doctor and tests to decide if they want to terminate the pregnancy since viabily usually occurs between 22 and 24 weeks.

Now I have thinking about it and I am willing to concede that maybe there was a misprint in the article and the actual number was at that time was 1000( one thousand ) instead of 100.
But even that would less now.

Remember my Kansas link ... there were 323 abortions at or past 22 weeks in 2008.
Kansas was one of three states that did late term abortions that year so if the two performed about 300 to 350 abortions that year it would put the number near 1000 after 22 weeks performed at those 3 clinics.

Remember all the abortions Kansas in 2008 were for medical reasons.

Some of the fetuses were not viable ( they were dead, dying, or would not survive outside the womb )
The other abortions were because the woman would have irreparable damage to a major bodily function if the pregnancy continued.

Okay, the source for the data was Planned Parenthood, which might explain why the numbers don't jive with the CDC or Guttmacher.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Okay, the source for the data was Planned Parenthood, which might explain why the numbers don't jive with the CDC or Guttmacher.

The sources for the Fox article were Planned Parenthood and National Center for Health Statistics which is the CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/index.htm

The only stats you had for abortions past 24 weeks were from 1997.

Look at my stats from Kansas in 2008.

All abortions in that state at or past 22 weeks gestation including the clinic that performed abortions past viability were for medical reasons.

And you agree with allowing abortions for medical reasons.

Did you read that " approximately .01 percent of all abortions performed, "

Were performed after 24 weeks?

; 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation), approximately .01 percent of all abortions performed.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

The sources for the Fox article were Planned Parenthood and National Center for Health Statistics which is the CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/index.htm

The only stats you had for abortions past 24 weeks were from 1997.

Look at my stats from Kansas in 2008.

All abortions in that state at or past 22 weeks gestation including the clinic that performed abortions past viability were for medical reasons.

And you agree with allowing abortions for medical reasons.

Did you read that " approximately .01 percent of all abortions performed, "

Were performed after 24 weeks?

The "after 24 weeks" is not a CDC number. The CDC does not break down abortions in that manner. They define late-term abortions as after 21 weeks, and, in 1995, they put that percentage at 1.4% of total abortions.

The "after 24 weeks" number comes from PP, and that makes it a bit dubious, since PP is unlikely to know the number of after 24 week abortions performed in other clinics. Many PP clinics don't perform abortions at all. That may have been their number for 1995, but that number didn't come from the CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053774.htm

Scroll down to Table 16.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Look at my stats from Kansas in 2008.

All abortions in that state at or past 22 weeks gestation including the clinic that performed abortions past viability were for medical reasons.

And you agree with allowing abortions for medical reasons.

Did you read that " approximately .01 percent of all abortions performed, "

Were performed after 24 weeks?

The more relevant stats would come from states that do not limit abortions. Kansas limits to 18-20 weeks. That's changed. Years ago -- it was later but someone passed a law I guess.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

The more relevant stats would come from states that do not limit abortions. Kansas limits to 18-20 weeks. That's changed. Years ago -- it was later but someone passed a law I guess.

Kansas stopped late term abortions ( abortions past 24 weeks ) after 2009.

They closed the late term clinic after Dr. Tiller was killed.

For more than 35 years, Women’s Health Care Services, Inc. provided women
from Wichita and around the world with high-quality abortion care. The murder of
our member Dr. George Tiller has been a devastating loss not only for his
family, but for the abortion provider community and the many women who relied on
him for care. We respect the family’s decision to close the clinic, and our
hearts go out to them as they grieve during this very difficult time.

Although Women’s Health Care Services, Inc. will not reopen, our members
remain committed to ensuring that women are able to obtain the abortion care
they need.

https://prochoice.org/dr-tillers-family-closes-clinic/

George Richard Tiller, MD was an American physician from Wichita, Kansas. He gained national attention as the medical director of Women's Health Care Services, one of only three clinics nationwide to provide late-term abortions. Wikipedia
Died: May 31, 2009, Wichita, KS

Again your map calls anything past 18 weeks as late term.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

And from the following Washington Post article:

Business
Why did Kansas have so many abortions in 2008?

Let’s focus on Kansas. That state, according to Center for Disease Control data, has an abortion rate of 19.2, slightly higher than the national average of 16 per every 1,000 women. Sort the data by state of residence, and Kansas has a much lower abortion rate; 10.1 of every 1,000 Kansas women terminated a pregnancy.. What’s going on here?

Kansas does not, by any measure, have the most liberal abortion laws. NARAL Pro-Choice America gives the state an “F” on access to abortion. But what it did have, in 2008, was Dr. George Tiller, one of the country’s few late-term abortion providers (Tiller was, in 2009, murdered by an anti-abortion activist). As one of the few doctors who provided abortions in the third trimester, many of patients travelled to his clinic from out of state. Kansas is also surrounded by rural areas, which are also less likely to have an abortion provider than urban areas. Taken together, that likely explains why, in 2008, Kansas had a relatively high abortion rate even when relatively few Kansas women terminated pregnancies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...3/gJQAbHY8ZV_blog.html?utm_term=.3d7285845aa2

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

Again your map calls anything past 18 weeks as late term.

The gray states on the map show "no limits." Those are the states most likely to see the highest rates of late-term abortion.

The CDC lists it as "after 21 weeks," and it appears only PP lists it as "after 24 weeks." I suppose that's to their benefit.

At any rate, the only valid numbers are from the CDC who actually tracks abortions. And, I gave you their link and told you to scroll down to Table 16, so now you know the real numbers.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

The gray states on the map show "no limits." Those are the states most likely to see the highest rates of late-term abortion.

The CDC lists it as "after 21 weeks," and it appears only PP lists it as "after 24 weeks." I suppose that's to their benefit.

At any rate, the only valid numbers are from the CDC who actually tracks abortions. And, I gave you their link and told you to scroll down to Table 16, so now you know the real numbers.

I knew the real numbers after 21 weeks.

Planned Parenthood does not perform abortions past 24 weeks.

I have been telling you abortions past 24 weeks are very rare and are for medical reasons.

But the only states that have clinics that will performs abortions past 24 weeks are Colorado, New Mexico, and Maryland.

Even though there are no limits in some of the other states those states do not have clinics and there are only 4 Dr.s in the US who will perform abortions past 24 weeks.

You do understand that don't you?

--------

Edited to add:

Take a look at the abortion clinics in Oregon which has no restrictions:



From a list of the abortion clinics in Oregon:

Zero of the Planned Parenthoods provide surgical abortions past 14 weeks.

One PP performs surgical abortions up to 9 weeks.

One PP performs them up to 12 weeks


Two PP provide surgical abortions up to 14 weeks.


Of the number of clinics 5 Clinics will only provide medical abortions ( abortion pills ) up to 9 weeks pregnancy.

There are two non Planned Parenthood abortion clinics that provide abortions past 14 weeks in Oregon :

One non Planned Parenthood up to 20.5 weeks

And another clinic ( not affiliated with Planned Parenhood ) up to 24 weeks.

Abortion Clinics | NROptions

Abortion Clinics | NROptions

 

[year2late]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

The gray states on the map show "no limits." Those are the states most likely to see the highest rates of late-term abortion.

The CDC lists it as "after 21 weeks," and it appears only PP lists it as "after 24 weeks." I suppose that's to their benefit.

At any rate, the only valid numbers are from the CDC who actually tracks abortions. And, I gave you their link and told you to scroll down to Table 16, so now you know the real numbers.

How is it to their benefit?

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

I knew the real numbers after 21 weeks.

Planned Parenthood does not perform abortions past 24 weeks.

I have been telling you abortions past 24 weeks are very rare and are for medical reasons.

But the only states that have clinics that will performs abortions past 24 weeks are Colorado, New Mexico, and Maryland.

Even though there are no limits in some of the other states those states do not have clinics and there are only 4 Dr.s in the US who will perform abortions past 24 weeks.

You do understand that don't you?

--------

Edited to add:

Take a look at the abortion clinics in Oregon which has no restrictions:



From a list of the abortion clinics in Oregon:

Zero of the Planned Parenthoods provide surgical abortions past 14 weeks.

One PP performs surgical abortions up to 9 weeks.

One performs them up to 12 weeks


Two provide surgical abortions up to 14 weeks.


ALl together 5 Clinics that only provide medical abortions ( abortion pills ) up to 9 weeks pregnancy.

There are two non Planned Parenthoods that abortion clinics that provide abortions past 14 weeks.

One non Planned Parenthood up to 20.5 weeks

And another clinic ( not affiliated with Planned Parenhood ) up to 24 weeks.

Abortion Clinics | NROptions

Abortion Clinics | NROptions

That's simply not factual.

I'm not going to check every state's laws but here's the procedure from Louisiana:

THIRD TRIMESTER
24-40 Weeks

An abortion at this stage of your pregnancy may only be done if your doctor reasonably believes it is necessary to prevent your death or to preserve your health.

Labor Induction

Labor induction usually requires the woman to be admitted to the hospital.
Labor will be started by injecting medicines into the woman's blood stream.
Labor and delivery of the fetus during the third trimester are similar to childbirth.
The duration of labor depends on the size of the baby and the readiness of the womb.

Medical Risks

As with childbirth, possible complications of third trimester labor induction include infection, heavy bleeding, stroke and high blood pressure.
When medicines are used to start labor, there is an increased risk of rupture of the womb than during normal childbirth.
Other immediate medical risks may include pelvic infection, incomplete abortion, blood clots in the uterus, heavy bleeding, cut or torn cervix, perforation of the wall of the uterus, anesthesia-related complications.

Caesarean Section

This method requires that the woman be admitted into a hospital.
A caesarean section may be performed if labor cannot be started by inducing labor, or if the woman or her fetus is too sick to undergo labor.
A caesarean section is removal of the baby by surgically cutting open the belly and womb. The woman is made numb by medication, either injected into the vein or spine or inhaled into the lungs.

http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/index.cfm/page/976

I'm sure there are plenty more.

Someone's pulling your leg. Is it PP?

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

How is it to their benefit?

By artificially revising the definition of "late term abortion" from 21 to 24 weeks, they can say that fewer late term abortions take place.

I'm kind of surprised that didn't dawn on you. Redefinition is a propaganda tool used in many, many industries to skew numbers.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

By artificially revising the definition of "late term abortion" from 21 to 24 weeks, they can say that fewer late term abortions take place.

Artificially? Pregnancy is 40 weeks. 21 is about mid-term, not late-term.