Proudly Pro Life JP Freem
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Of course, there's also this fact:Surgical abortion is a very safe procedure. Surgical procedures in the first trimester are safer than having a tonsillectomy. Less than 1 woman in 100 will have any type of complication, and serious complications are rare.
So, it would seem that if safety were really an issue and not a strawman, we should be handing out the abortions left and right since it's safer for the woman.According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, abortion is approximately 11 times safer than carrying the pregnancy to childbirth.
shuamort said:In other news, medical malpractice and accidents happen. Luckily, the women are warned of the risks before any medical procedure has happened.
Is a 15 yr old who has not told her parents that she plans to have an abortion and is looking for a deal able to understand the risk? Will she chose the facility wisely or will she end up in the facilty in Atlanta that was shut down because of filth.
Of course, there's also this fact:
So, it would seem that if safety were really an issue and not a strawman, we should be handing out the abortions left and right since it's safer for the woman.
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:Alabama woman dies from legal abortion She was only 18 read all about it click on link http://www.roevwade.org/myth4.html
paulmarkj said:(I couldn't get any of the lonks to work, all 404, might just be me).
As soon as you become pregnant there are risks. There are still women who die during child birth or through complications of child birth.
I don't wish a 17 year old girl a death or injury throiugh either child birth or abortion, but are we to judge abortion on which risk is greater?
And yet is the safest surgical procedure we have and is much safer than giving birth. If you are now pushing the safety issue for women (why the suddeen concern for those you couldn't care if were maimed earlier?) than you should insist on them having abortions instead of giving birth. But you are not, again revealing you to be a lying hypocrite.Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:The point I was trying to make is abortion is a serious procedure
So you admit that your push for political input is wrong, yet you do it? That sounds almost schizophrenic of you.As far as your question which risk is greater it has to be decided by a Doctor because everyone is different.
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:I wish these deaths were untrue but they are. If Abortion is to remain legal it should be safe. I am Pro Life I hope to end the Genocide being committed on Millions of Babies as well as the women dying from abortion.
tryreading said:In 2000, as in previous years, deaths related to legal induced abortions occurred rarely (less than one death per 100,000 abortions).
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm
Oh? because you say so?Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:In LA thousands of Legal abortions are being perfomed in filthy clinics.
Again, just because you say so?In Georgia the same situation exist.
Evidence, please. Or is this just another "because I say so" prolife lie like so many others?Fact many women wo have receive an abortion later have problems having children due to damage to cervix which occured during the abortion procedure.
"many"? Really? because you say so?Many women suffer after having an abortion with feelings of guilt.
"people"? How do you define "people"?In each of these cases 2 people died during the procedure.
A lie. Yearly about 350-500 women die from 4.5 mill childbirths, while about 3-11 women die from 1.1-1.3 mill abortions. Child birth is about 15 times as dangerous as having an abortion. WHY are you lying?According to the New England Jounal of Medicine having an abortion is 4 times more dangerous than child birth.
Ah, THAT explains it. ABTV has been proven and documented to lie (Busta, help me out here). If I was you, I would get my info from something else than a prol-life pro-lie site.
steen said:Oh? because you say so?
Again, just because you say so?
Evidence, please. Or is this just another "because I say so" prolife lie like so many others?
"many"? Really? because you say so?
"people"? How do you define "people"?
A lie. Yearly about 350-500 women die from 4.5 mill childbirths, while about 3-11 women die from 1.1-1.3 mill abortions. Child birth is about 15 times as dangerous as having an abortion. WHY are you lying?
Ah, THAT explains it. ABTV has been proven and documented to lie (Busta, help me out here). If I was you, I would get my info from something else than a prol-life pro-lie site.
Except that the NEJM didn't state this. ABTV lied and misrepresented NEJM.Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:"New England Journal of Medicine" Not good enough?
Of all the women I know who have had abortions, and two I know had more than one, everyone one of them went on to have more than one healthy child. I'd like to see the stats on this, since just those in my circle of friends and family were 100% fine in future conceptions.Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:Fact many women wo have receive an abortion later have problems having children due to damage to cervix which occured during the abortion procedure.
steen said:And just to make sure it sticks, here is the SCIENTIFIC research on thsi subject, all dsiproving the prolife lie about a post-abortion syndrome:
I to will provide scientific information that appeared in the "New England Journal of Medicine"
http://www.abortiontv.com/Glitch/AbortionMoreDangerous.htm
Here are Dr Reardon Sources
See also:
o Informed Consent Booklets Hide True Risks of Abortion
o The Cover-Up: Why U.S. Abortion Mortality Statistics Are Meaningless
o Two Senseless Deaths: The Long Road to Recovery
o Abortionists Are Not Held Accountable for Mistakes
Notes
1. Gissler, M., et. al., "Pregnancy-associated deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage," Acta Obsetricia et Gynecolgica Scandinavica 76:651-657 (1997).
2. Mika Gissler, Elina Hemminki, Jouko Lonnqvist, "Suicides after pregnancy in Finland: 1987-94: register linkage study" British Medical Journal 313:1431-4, 1996.
3. McFadden, A., "The Link Between Abortion and Child Abuse," Family Resources Center News (January 1998) 20.
4. S. J. Drower, & E. S. Nash, "Therapeutic Abortion on Psychiatric Grounds," South African Medical Journal 54:604-608, Oct. 7, 1978; B. Jansson, Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavia 41:87, 1965.
5. David Reardon, "Psychological Reactions Reported After Abortion," The Post-Abortion Review, 2(3):4-8, Fall 1994; Anne C. Speckhard, The Psychological Aspects of Stress Following Abortion (Kansas City: Sheed & Ward, 1987); Vincent Rue, "Traumagenic Aspects of Elective Abortion: Preliminary Findings from an International Study" Healing Visions Conference, June 22, 1996
6. Christopher L. Morgan, et. al., "Mental health may deteriorate as a direct effect of induced abortion," letters section, BMJ 314:902, 22 March, 1997.
7. E. Joanne Angelo, Psychiatric Sequelae of Abortion: The Many Faces of Post-Abortion Grief," Linacre Quarterly 59:69-80, May 1992; David Grimes, "Second-Trimester Abortions in the United States, Family Planning Perspectives 16(6):260; Myre Sim and Robert Neisser, "Post-Abortive Psychoses," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, ed. D. Mall and W.F. Watts, (Washington D.C.: University Publications of America, 1979).
8. Carl Tischler, "Adolescent Suicide Attempts Following Elective Abortion," Pediatrics 68(5):670, 1981.
9. "Psychopathological Effects of Voluntary Termination of Pregnancy on the Father Called Up for Military Service," Psychologie Medicale 14(8):1187-1189, June 1982; Angelo, op. cit.
10. B. Garfinkle, H. Hoberman, J. Parsons and J. Walker, "Stress, Depression and Suicide: A Study of Adolescents in Minnesota" (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Extension Service, 1986)
11. Esther R. Greenglass, "Therapeutic Abortion and Psychiatric Disturbance in Canadian Women," Canadian Psychiatric Association Journal, 21(7):453-460, 1976; Helen Houston & Lionel Jacobson, "Overdose and Termination of Pregnancy: An Important Association?" British Journal of General Practice, 46:737-738, 1996.
12. Elizabeth Rosenthal, "Women's Suicides Reveal China's Bitter Roots: Nation Starts to Confront World's Highest Rate," The New York Times, Sunday January 24, 1999, p. 1, 8.
13. R.F. Badgley, D.F. Caron, M.G. Powell, Report of the Committee on the Abortion Law, Minister of Supply and Services, Ottawa, 1977:313-319.
14. Jeff Nelson,"Data Request from Delegate Marshall" Interagency Memorandum, Virginia Department of Medical Assistance Services, Mar. 21, 1997.
15. Carl Tischler, "Adolescent Suicide Attempts Following Elective Abortion," Pediatrics 68(5):670, 1981; E. Joanne Angelo, Psychiatric Sequelae of Abortion: The Many Faces of Post-Abortion Grief," Linacre Quarterly 59:69-80, May 1992.
16. D.C. Reardon and P.G. Ney, "Abortion and Subsequent Substance Abuse" Am J Drug Alcohol Abuse 26(1):61-75.
17. David Reardon, "Psychological Reactions Reported After Abortion," The Post-Abortion Review, 2(3):4-8, Fall 1994
18. Personal communication with Mika Gissler, March 8, 2000.
19. D. Berkeley, P.L. Humphreys, and D. Davidson, "Demands Made on General Practice by Women Before and After an Abortion," J. R. Coll. Gen. Pract. 34:310-315, 1984.
20. Philip G. Ney, Tak Fung, Adele Rose Wickett and Carol Beaman-Dodd, "The Effects of Pregnancy Loss on Women's Health," Soc. Sci. Med. 48(9):1193-1200, 1994.
21. Gissler, et.al. (1997) 652.
Can'to far, all I saw was more reference to the ABTV lie site.Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:I to will provide scientific information that appeared in the "New England Journal of Medicine"
Oh, good one. Reardon is director of an anti-abortion agency. I have personally taken him to task in the Scientific Literature and medical journals for his misrepresentation. Reardon's favorite ploy is to dig out a correelation and then claim causation, which is fkagrantly dishonest. yes, his findland study is famous for just that deception, f.ex.Here are Dr Reardon Sources
Nothing scientific there.See also:
o Informed Consent Booklets Hide True Risks of Abortion
o The Cover-Up: Why U.S. Abortion Mortality Statistics Are Meaningless
o Two Senseless Deaths: The Long Road to Recovery
o Abortionists Are Not Held Accountable for Mistakes
Notes
Yes, where reardon misrepresented correlation as cousation. I already dealt with that.1. Gissler, M., et. al., "Pregnancy-associated deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage," Acta Obsetricia et Gynecolgica Scandinavica 76:651-657 (1997).
2. Mika Gissler, Elina Hemminki, Jouko Lonnqvist, "Suicides after pregnancy in Finland: 1987-94: register linkage study" British Medical Journal 313:1431-4, 1996.
Not scientific.3. McFadden, A., "The Link Between Abortion and Child Abuse," Family Resources Center News (January 1998) 20.
You have two references here. I checked them both out (abstract only) and they did not seem to confirm any prolife argument. So what is the validity of these references/? Could you clarify?4. S. J. Drower, & E. S. Nash, "Therapeutic Abortion on Psychiatric Grounds," South African Medical Journal 54:604-608, Oct. 7, 1978; B. Jansson, Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavia 41:87, 1965.
One non-scientific journal, one non-peer-reviewed book, and one anti-abortion presentation. Nothing scientific evidence-like there.5. David Reardon, "Psychological Reactions Reported After Abortion," The Post-Abortion Review, 2(3):4-8, Fall 1994; Anne C. Speckhard, The Psychological Aspects of Stress Following Abortion (Kansas City: Sheed & Ward, 1987); Vincent Rue, "Traumagenic Aspects of Elective Abortion: Preliminary Findings from an International Study" Healing Visions Conference, June 22, 1996
Letters are not peer-reviewed.6. Christopher L. Morgan, et. al., "Mental health may deteriorate as a direct effect of induced abortion," letters section, BMJ 314:902, 22 March, 1997.
Not a scientific source.7. E. Joanne Angelo, Psychiatric Sequelae of Abortion: The Many Faces of Post-Abortion Grief," Linacre Quarterly 59:69-80, May 1992;
Doesn't confirm any prolife argument......David Grimes, "Second-Trimester Abortions in the United States, Family Planning Perspectives 16(6):260;
steen said:Can'to far, all I saw was more reference to the ABTV lie site.
Oh, good one. Reardon is director of an anti-abortion agency. I have personally taken him to task in the Scientific Literature and medical journals for his misrepresentation. Reardon's favorite ploy is to dig out a correelation and then claim causation, which is fkagrantly dishonest. yes, his findland study is famous for just that deception, f.ex.
You realyl need to come up with somebody other than David Reardon
Nothing scientific there.
Yes, where reardon misrepresented correlation as cousation. I already dealt with that.
Not scientific.
You have two references here. I checked them both out (abstract only) and they did not seem to confirm any prolife argument. So what is the validity of these references/? Could you clarify?
One non-scientific journal, one non-peer-reviewed book, and one anti-abortion presentation. Nothing scientific evidence-like there.
Letters are not peer-reviewed.
Not a scientific source.
Doesn't confirm any prolife argument......
and so on. AT this point I got tired of chasing non-existing evidence. Please go through the list and show what scientific evidence there actually is in there in support of your claims.
No, the scientific/medical peer-review of which I am a mmember are the ones who get to decide this.Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:So you get to decide who is lying and who is Scientific?
I have the scientific, statistical and medical background qualifying me to determine that reardon's claims are not supported by the data. And I have the same qualification is noting that the referenced journal articles do not support the conclusion that prolifers are making about them.What is your background and are you qualified to decide this? Hmmm
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:In LA thousands of Legal abortions are being perfomed in filthy clinics. In Georgia the same situation exist. Fact many women wo have receive an abortion later have problems having children due to damage to cervix which occured during the abortion procedure. Many women suffer after having an abortion with feelings of guilt. For these women I suggest reading "I'll Hold you in Heaven" by Jack Hayford. In each of these cases 2 people died during the procedure. so I guess that double the statistic you mentioned. According to the New England Jounal of Medicine having an abortion is 4 times more dangerous than child birth. http://www.abortiontv.com/Glitch/AbortionMoreDangerous.htm
tryreading said:I provided a very reputable link showing national mortality from abortion procedures, the U.S. CDC. Do you think they have an agenda? I don't believe you about filthy clinics in the places you mention, but even if you are right, the below rate is still the same, <1 per 100,000.
OK Here are some more sourcestryreading said:I provided a very reputable link showing national mortality from abortion procedures, the U.S. CDC. Do you think they have an agenda? I don't believe you about filthy clinics in the places you mention, but even if you are right, the below rate is still the same, <1 per 100,000.
UtahBill said:How about some links showing the sad lives of unwanted children ?
Abused children? Crack babies? Fetal Alcohol Syndrome babies?
I managed to escape actually sitting on the jury for a case where the mom gave birth to a severely physically and mentally handicapped child and then abandoned it. She was into drugs, alcohol, and just short of living on the streets. The institution that was caring for the child was suing the doctors and hospital for compensation on behalf of the child. The state was paying for the child's care, at taxpayer expense, but they wanted several millions of dollars more, "on behalf of the child". There was a time right after birth that the child was dying, but they saved it. I said that they should have let it go back to God, and that is why I was not chosen to sit on that jury. It was obvious to the defendant's lawyers that I think doctors too often play God.
Abortion is repulsive, yes, but the law says that it is legal.
Therefore, it is not an issue to the rest of us. If it is a moral issue, it is between the woman and God. Judgment is not ours, nor should we prevent others from exercising their free will.
It can be a moral issue within your church membership, and the only thing your church can do is kick the unfortunate woman out. Not exactly a Christian thing to do, but there it is.
"We the people" have decided, via SCOTUS. If a national referendum stated that we should ban abortion, it would still have to face SCOTUS again.Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:This is still Country where we the People decide. The majority of Americans oppose abortion except in cases of rape, incest,or health of the mother. These make up less than1% of all abortions performed. We have the right to try to change the laws that we the people do not like. Examples of this occur throughout our history a recent one is the Civil Rights movment and they should be proud of their accomplisments.
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