Abortion Bloopers

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Okay..that is a fact...but does it happen? Could you provide statistics? Otherwise it's fallacious.


http://members.tripod.com/~joseromia/illegal.html

Although the thought of finding a deceased young woman with a bloody coat hanger dangling between her legs is -- to say the least -- unpleasant, powerful and emotionally charged rhetoric does not a good argument make.

The chief reason this argument fails is because it commits the fallacy of begging the question. In fact, as we shall see, this fallacy seems to lurk behind a good percentage of the popular arguments for the pro-choice position......



Dr. Frank Beckwith is Associate Professor of Philosophy, Culture, and Law, and W. Howard Hoffman Scholar at Trinity Graduate School, Trinity International University (Deerfield, IL), California Campus. He holds a Ph.D. from Fordham University.

Prior to coming to Trinity, Professor Beckwith held full-time faculty appointments at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas(1989-96) and Whittier College (1996-97). His many books include Politically Correct Death: Answering the Arguments for Abortion Rights. His articles and reviews have been published in numerous journals including Journal of Social Philosophy, Public Affairs Quarterly, International Philosophical Quarterly, Focus on Law Studies, Simon Greenleaf of Law and Religion, and the Canadian Philosophical Review.

Bravo Great article. :rock

 

[tecoyah]

"Although the thought of finding a deceased young woman with a bloody coat hanger dangling between her legs is -- to say the least -- unpleasant, powerful and emotionally charged rhetoric does not a good argument make."


Perhaps those on the Pro-Life side of this debate....might take a page from this book as well.

 

[Felicity]

"Although the thought of finding a deceased young woman with a bloody coat hanger dangling between her legs is -- to say the least -- unpleasant, powerful and emotionally charged rhetoric does not a good argument make."


Perhaps those on the Pro-Life side of this debate....might take a page from this book as well.

I agree. The exaggerated rhetoric on the pro-life side lessens credibility of the rational and legitimate pro-life argument. I believe that the pro-life position is the most consistent and provable side of the debate and we do not NEED to exaggerate to reveal how unjust the act of abortion is. I believe when the pro-life side promotes fanatical and unreasonably wild claims the truth that SEEMS unbelievable gets dismissed and marginalized by the unwarranted exaggeration. There ARE horrific facts and occurrences that are the result of legal abortion and so we should not go beyond the truth. The truth is horror enough. But it must be acknowledged that quite a bit of the horrific claims are in fact true even when some are not.

 

[Blind man]

yes it happens. No I can't provide statistics, nor would I try. I'm not a statistician nor do I claim to be one on TV. I DO however believe in the power of human motivation. As such an individual with the motivation to end a pregnancy WILL in my opinion seek out resources to aid in that goal. That said many a woman in this position are also in an extremely vulnerable state when investigating their options and as such can be easily swayed. Trying to convince me that if abortion were illegal, it wouldn't happen is futile. Whether succesful or un-succesful methods will be utilized.

I am also not pro-choice or pro-life per se. I am however pragmatic when it comes to the reality of the situation vis-a-vis the real life consequences of both stances. IMO the lesser of two evils with our current society is to allow abortions. This has little to do with the purported "life qualities" of an unborn. I would MUCH rather an abortion occur than have a fetal alchohol syndrome HIV+ unwanted baby. I KNOW that is an existence of suffering and eventual death. If I could be assured that all the babies currently being aborted would be well taken care of and healthy, you might sway me. But if that were the real goal of "pro-lifers" they'd be donating their money to child wellness programs instead of politicians.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

yes it happens. No I can't provide statistics, nor would I try. I'm not a statistician nor do I claim to be one on TV. I DO however believe in the power of human motivation. As such an individual with the motivation to end a pregnancy WILL in my opinion seek out resources to aid in that goal. That said many a woman in this position are also in an extremely vulnerable state when investigating their options and as such can be easily swayed. Trying to convince me that if abortion were illegal, it wouldn't happen is futile. Whether succesful or un-succesful methods will be utilized.

Today there are many agencies out there to help in a crisis pregnancy. To name a few Catholic Social Services, Lutheran Social Services, Care Net, Any locale church pastor would help. The key is to let that person know she has support if she needs it. I also feel the Male should pay pregnancy support as the woiman has many expenses during a pregnancy. This would be a major factor in reducing unwanted pregnancies.

I am also not pro-choice or pro-life per se. I am however pragmatic when it comes to the reality of the situation vis-a-vis the real life consequences of both stances. IMO the lesser of two evils with our current society is to allow abortions. This has little to do with the purported "life qualities" of an unborn. I would MUCH rather an abortion occur than have a fetal alchohol syndrome HIV+ unwanted baby.

There should be child abuse penalties if a baby is born with fetal alchol syndrome. HIV Babies are innocent and should be given the best treatments. Simply to put them to death because they have AIDS is wrong suppose we start to do that to the general population? Many people are waiting years for those so called unwanted babies. My wife and I waited 5 years.

I KNOW that is an existence of suffering and eventual death. If I could be assured that all the babies currently being aborted would be well taken care of and healthy, you might sway me. But if that were the real goal of "pro-lifers" they'd be donating their money to child wellness programs instead of politicians.

Many Pro Lifers donate money to the agencies mention above all of them will help even after the baby is born.There are laws that are suppose to protect children fom child abuse.


In the first 10 years after abortion was legalize, child abuse increased by over 500%. Is it any wonder? Isn’t it easy to conclude that "if it’s OK to abuse our unwanted children by killing them, then why not our "born" children?" Studies also have shown that child abuse is more frequent among mothers who have previously had an abortion.Further, most abused children were wanted by their parents. A study conducted by professor Edward Lenoski of the University of California concluded that 91% of abused children were from planned pregnancies. In society, 64% of pregnancies are planned – concluding that among abused children, a significantly higher percentage were wanted children compared to the percentage of wanted children in society at large. Note This was taken from Abortion TV

 

[Axismaster]

yes it happens. No I can't provide statistics, nor would I try. I'm not a statistician nor do I claim to be one on TV. I DO however believe in the power of human motivation. As such an individual with the motivation to end a pregnancy WILL in my opinion seek out resources to aid in that goal. That said many a woman in this position are also in an extremely vulnerable state when investigating their options and as such can be easily swayed. Trying to convince me that if abortion were illegal, it wouldn't happen is futile. Whether succesful or un-succesful methods will be utilized.

Today there are many agencies out there to help in a crisis pregnancy. To name a few Catholic Social Services, Lutheran Social Services, Care Net, Any locale church pastor would help. The key is to let that person know she has support if she needs it. I also feel the Male should pay pregnancy support as the woiman has many expenses during a pregnancy. This would be a major factor in reducing unwanted pregnancies.

I am also not pro-choice or pro-life per se. I am however pragmatic when it comes to the reality of the situation vis-a-vis the real life consequences of both stances. IMO the lesser of two evils with our current society is to allow abortions. This has little to do with the purported "life qualities" of an unborn. I would MUCH rather an abortion occur than have a fetal alchohol syndrome HIV+ unwanted baby.

There should be child abuse penalties if a baby is born with fetal alchol syndrome. HIV Babies are innocent and should be given the best treatments. Simply to put them to death because they have AIDS is wrong suppose we start to do that to the general population? Many people are waiting years for those so called unwanted babies. My wife and I waited 5 years.

I KNOW that is an existence of suffering and eventual death. If I could be assured that all the babies currently being aborted would be well taken care of and healthy, you might sway me. But if that were the real goal of "pro-lifers" they'd be donating their money to child wellness programs instead of politicians.

Many Pro Lifers donate money to the agencies mention above all of them will help even after the baby is born.There are laws that are suppose to protect children fom child abuse.


In the first 10 years after abortion was legalize, child abuse increased by over 500%. Is it any wonder? Isn’t it easy to conclude that "if it’s OK to abuse our unwanted children by killing them, then why not our "born" children?" Studies also have shown that child abuse is more frequent among mothers who have previously had an abortion.Further, most abused children were wanted by their parents. A study conducted by professor Edward Lenoski of the University of California concluded that 91% of abused children were from planned pregnancies. In society, 64% of pregnancies are planned – concluding that among abused children, a significantly higher percentage were wanted children compared to the percentage of wanted children in society at large. Note This was taken from Abortion TV

Well you see, most liberals would never have you at one of those agencies becuase it has the word "Catholic" in front of it or is affiliated with something else they despise. Still though, our societal value on children has gone down since RvW was decided, I can tell you that. It is just our culture where the government can take responsibility from your hands so no need to yourself, and that is a shame. Part of the reason I am libertarian is because I feel a responsible society is one with less government.

Libertarians For Life

 

[ngdawg]

In the first 10 years after abortion was legalize, child abuse increased by over 500%. Is it any wonder? Isn’t it easy to conclude that "if it’s OK to abuse our unwanted children by killing them, then why not our "born" children?" Studies also have shown that child abuse is more frequent among mothers who have previously had an abortion.Further, most abused children were wanted by their parents. A study conducted by professor Edward Lenoski of the University of California concluded that 91% of abused children were from planned pregnancies. In society, 64% of pregnancies are planned – concluding that among abused children, a significantly higher percentage were wanted children compared to the percentage of wanted children in society at large. Note This was taken from Abortion TV

Might be easy for YOU to conclude as it's a ridiculous point. Abuse rising has nothing to do with abortion; in fact, I question those statistics. If 91% were from planned, wanted pregnancies, and you want all UNWANTED pregnancies carried out, abuse numbers would skyrocket. In fact, if those numbers are to be believed, you just gave a good argument why abortions should be available to all.
As for saying HIV babies, etc., would be adopted out, let me ask this-what handicaps/diseases does your adoptee have and how many more do you plan on taking in? At the current rate of adoption in this country, with your beliefs, you'll have to adopt 100 more kids yourself and get about 4,000 of your closest friends to do so as well.

 

[Axismaster]

Might be easy for YOU to conclude as it's a ridiculous point. Abuse rising has nothing to do with abortion; in fact, I question those statistics. If 91% were from planned, wanted pregnancies, and you want all UNWANTED pregnancies carried out, abuse numbers would skyrocket. In fact, if those numbers are to be believed, you just gave a good argument why abortions should be available to all.
As for saying HIV babies, etc., would be adopted out, let me ask this-what handicaps/diseases does your adoptee have and how many more do you plan on taking in? At the current rate of adoption in this country, with your beliefs, you'll have to adopt 100 more kids yourself and get about 4,000 of your closest friends to do so as well.

That's why we should do all it takes to encourage these mothers to keep them throughout the pregnancy. So you just want them to walk into an abortion clinic and say, "I want an abortion," and do it? It is complex, but your little arguments never justified a single death. Just like a neo-nazi can argue Hitler's points all he wants, but it is still wrong.

 

[ngdawg]

That's why we should do all it takes to encourage these mothers to keep them throughout the pregnancy. So you just want them to walk into an abortion clinic and say, "I want an abortion," and do it? It is complex, but your little arguments never justified a single death. Just like a neo-nazi can argue Hitler's points all he wants, but it is still wrong
Trying to invoke Godwin's law again, kid?
Do all it takes? Do you read at all? Suppose for just a minute you get your wish-every single pregnancy in one year carried to a live birth. We'll use an arbitrary number, say...3 million. Good at math? Great. Now, 35% of those pregnancies would have been either aborted or miscarried, but YOU get your wish and every one is now here. So we have over 1 million babies not planned for or wanted and have no place to go. Now, take that 120,000 possible adoptions that MIGHT occur within that same year. You now have 880,000 babies with no place to go, some might be very sick, drug-addled, etc. Hope you have a lot of room-tell mother to expect some company for the next 18 years...

NO death is 'justified'. They happen. Get it through your head-the word is CHOICE. Not yours, not mine to make FOR another.
Let's do this: I will choose your mate, your wedding date, your number of children and where you live. YOU have no say in it. You will reproduce as I tell you and WHEN I tell you. Your wife has no say in it either. After all, she's the one who has to carry all those babies you want. And if she doesn't like it, tough. It's not HER body, it's mine and I make the rules.
There's YOUR version of 'Libertarianism'. Funny, doesn't seem anything like liberty to me.

 

[steen]

That's why we should do all it takes to encourage these mothers to keep them throughout the pregnancy. So you just want them to walk into an abortion clinic and say, "I want an abortion," and do it? It is complex, but your little arguments never justified a single death. Just like a neo-nazi can argue Hitler's points all he wants, but it is still wrong.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/vbencyclopedia.php?title=Godwin's_Law

 

[Blind man]

yes it happens. No I can't provide statistics, nor would I try. I'm not a statistician nor do I claim to be one on TV. I DO however believe in the power of human motivation. As such an individual with the motivation to end a pregnancy WILL in my opinion seek out resources to aid in that goal. That said many a woman in this position are also in an extremely vulnerable state when investigating their options and as such can be easily swayed. Trying to convince me that if abortion were illegal, it wouldn't happen is futile. Whether succesful or un-succesful methods will be utilized.

Today there are many agencies out there to help in a crisis pregnancy. To name a few Catholic Social Services, Lutheran Social Services, Care Net, Any locale church pastor would help. The key is to let that person know she has support if she needs it. I also feel the Male should pay pregnancy support as the woiman has many expenses during a pregnancy. This would be a major factor in reducing unwanted pregnancies.

um LOL, none of those agencies offers comprehensive advice, just one-sided advice, now I realize that you like that one sided advice, but that doesn't change the fact that if somebody's not looking for that advice they won't go and won't listen. I'd prefer at least a 24 hour turnaround time on abortions that way it's not a rash decision, but that again brings the government into legislating a subject that is still morally ambiguous from a scientific standpoint .

I am also not pro-choice or pro-life per se. I am however pragmatic when it comes to the reality of the situation vis-a-vis the real life consequences of both stances. IMO the lesser of two evils with our current society is to allow abortions. This has little to do with the purported "life qualities" of an unborn. I would MUCH rather an abortion occur than have a fetal alchohol syndrome HIV+ unwanted baby.

There should be child abuse penalties if a baby is born with fetal alchol syndrome. HIV Babies are innocent and should be given the best treatments. Simply to put them to death because they have AIDS is wrong suppose we start to do that to the general population? Many people are waiting years for those so called unwanted babies. My wife and I waited 5 years.

Ok, so you punish the adult. That doesn't do a damned bit of good for the kid. way to go. And if I had my way there WOULD be some sort of way of identifying HIV+ people (tattoo on the buttock etc. ) And while there is a decent adoption willing population you have yet to show there is one sizable enough to handle the mass influx that making it illegal would cause. And the number of people who want a baby that is doomed to die by age 15 is?

I KNOW that is an existence of suffering and eventual death. If I could be assured that all the babies currently being aborted would be well taken care of and healthy, you might sway me. But if that were the real goal of "pro-lifers" they'd be donating their money to child wellness programs instead of politicians.

Many Pro Lifers donate money to the agencies mention above all of them will help even after the baby is born.There are laws that are suppose to protect children fom child abuse.


In the first 10 years after abortion was legalize, child abuse increased by over 500%. Is it any wonder? Isn’t it easy to conclude that "if it’s OK to abuse our unwanted children by killing them, then why not our "born" children?" Studies also have shown that child abuse is more frequent among mothers who have previously had an abortion.Further, most abused children were wanted by their parents. A study conducted by professor Edward Lenoski of the University of California concluded that 91% of abused children were from planned pregnancies. In society, 64% of pregnancies are planned – concluding that among abused children, a significantly higher percentage were wanted children compared to the percentage of wanted children in society at large. Note This was taken from Abortion TV

Until you attempt to correct for a myriad of other social/population factors this is meaningless. And as far as mothers who have had previous abortions abusing children I chalk that up to statistical irrelevancy. The people most likely to abuse children are irresponsible/un-intelligent people. These are also the people most likely to have abortions because it doesn't take a genius to figure out where babies come from and how they are created. That said the more of these people that have abortions the better imo. The less stupid/irresponsible people that are born, the less that will have a chance to reproduce, ergo a better society in the long run

In sum I do wish that it were feasible for abortion rates to plummet to a level negligible in comparison to current levels. Not for any overhwlming moral concern for the supposed life of the unborn, but rather because I truly wish society would becopme better educated on reproductive health and that better pregnancy prevention existed. Of course it IS ironic that many of the people who wish to end abortion also don't believe in using voluntary technology to limit the opportunities for reproduction.

 

[doughgirl]

"And yet is the safest surgical procedure we have and is much safer than giving birth."

It's the safest procedure we have that kills by dismembering an innocent child in the womb. Cause for every innocent child that goes in before an abortion.......they come out dead. That is fact.

And you think this is a good thing?

Blind man you said,"There should be child abuse penalties if a baby is born with fetal alchol syndrome."

I am curious as to why you think that. I am pro-life so I agree with you but...
the pro-choicer will say, no, no penalties because its the womans body and she shoudl be able to do anything she wants. How could a pro-choicer be for imposing penalties against her? Shoot they say she can kill it.......why tell her she cant take drugs, alcohol or contract HIV.

 

[SHodges]

Go talk to your average person. I'd be glad to see more abortions.

 

[Blind man]

"And yet is the safest surgical procedure we have and is much safer than giving birth."

It's the safest procedure we have that kills by dismembering an innocent child in the womb. Cause for every innocent child that goes in before an abortion.......they come out dead. That is fact.

And you think this is a good thing?



I am curious as to why you think that. I am pro-life so I agree with you but...
the pro-choicer will say, no, no penalties because its the womans body and she shoudl be able to do anything she wants. How could a pro-choicer be for imposing penalties against her? Shoot they say she can kill it.......why tell her she cant take drugs, alcohol or contract HIV.

I can see how that's confusing and in the future I will try to break up the quotes better. You have confused somebody else's position with mine. If you read the post again you will see that my responses are for the most part nested into somebody elses responses to my previous post. As I said before I am more of a pragmatist on this matter than "pro-choice" or "pro-life".