Abortion and slavery, is there anything in common? (1 Viewer)

[prometeus]

I feel that slavery is still a poor analogy to abortion. Its main appeal is the emotional response that it can elicit. In reality there is little to nothing in common between the two. Much like tennis and baseball, just because a ball is hit it doe not make them the same. Why? Because the underlying issues are not the same, the way legal principles were and are applied to slavery and abortion are not the same and ultimately because the abolition of slavery did not result in immediate recognition of black as equals to whites.
Outlawing abortion will not result in the "personification" of fetuses, they will not count as people of the nation, not will thy be allowed as dependents for taxable purposes. After all they never were when abortion was illegal.

Well, there is one very similar aspect, slaves were forced to do things that they may or may not have wished to do, much like pregnant women could be forced to gestate and give birth.

 

[mac]

While there certainly are aspects which separate the two issues, you can not simply ignore the similarities. First and foremost being the concept of humanity and how it applies similarly to both. Slaves were subjugated primarily due to the view that they were less than human in comparison to whites, and farther back, to nobles or other affluent classes. As with slavery, all that need be overcome to start the path to ending it is the realization of humanity in both cases. In the case of slavery, though universally illegal, it still occurs, though it's fought wherever it appears. Not so, yet, with abortion, because extending humanity to a human fetus has yet to be universally applied.

In any fight for equality, there are proponents and opponents, as with eliminating slavery AND abortion. Not to mention child labor, women's suffrage, workers rights, so on and so forth.

 

[spud_meister]

mac, you're ignoring that while the opinion that blacks were less than human is based on bigotry and stupidity, the opinion that fetuses are less than human is based on physiological development, viability etc.

 

[mac]

mac, you're ignoring that while the opinion that blacks were less than human is based on bigotry and stupidity, the opinion that fetuses are less than human is based on physiological development, viability etc.

I'm not ignoring that, I said there were definitely differences in the two. As the op led primarily with differences, I led primarily with similarities.

 

[Josie]

Didn't we have a gazillion pages already on this topic?

 

[prometeus]

While there certainly are aspects which separate the two issues, you can not simply ignore the similarities.

For the purposes of the abortion debate, there is nothing similar between the two, or more precisely between slaves and fetuses. You must keep in mind that slaves existed before the Constitution and the issue of their personhood was non-existent till much later. Even after the independence and adoption of the constitution the issue came up later and the three fifths of a person became a legal "game" by which it allowed slaves to be counted and even that was only needed because of political benefits it brought. No one really cared how many slaves existed beyond how much wealth they represented to the owner.
Further look backwards in time, shows that slaves were not denied what they were, but rather often were the vanquished, the offenders or simply could do nothing to prevent their enslavement.

all that need be overcome to start the path to ending it is the realization of humanity in both cases.

The need to overcome originates with the realization that subjugation is not a good thing.

 

[mac]

For the purposes of the abortion debate, there is nothing similar between the two, or more precisely between slaves and fetuses. You must keep in mind that slaves existed before the Constitution and the issue of their personhood was non-existent till much later. Even after the independence and adoption of the constitution the issue came up later and the three fifths of a person became a legal "game" by which it allowed slaves to be counted and even that was only needed because of political benefits it brought. No one really cared how many slaves existed beyond how much wealth they represented to the owner.
Further look backwards in time, shows that slaves were not denied what they were, but rather often were the vanquished, the offenders or simply could do nothing to prevent their enslavement.

Nothing in what you just said separates the person hood argument from slave and fetus.

The need to overcome originates with the realization that subjugation is not a good thing.

It originates with the realization of humanity.

 

[Chuz Life]

Didn't we have a gazillion pages already on this topic?

Yeah,...

But we still don't have a poll question on it.

Can we get a mod to add a poll to this thread?

Please/

 

[Chuz Life]

While there certainly are aspects which separate the two issues, you can not simply ignore the similarities. First and foremost being the concept of humanity and how it applies similarly to both. Slaves were subjugated primarily due to the view that they were less than human in comparison to whites, and farther back, to nobles or other affluent classes. As with slavery, all that need be overcome to start the path to ending it is the realization of humanity in both cases. In the case of slavery, though universally illegal, it still occurs, though it's fought wherever it appears. Not so, yet, with abortion, because extending humanity to a human fetus has yet to be universally applied.

In any fight for equality, there are proponents and opponents, as with eliminating slavery AND abortion. Not to mention child labor, women's suffrage, workers rights, so on and so forth.

Well stated.

Despite the frustration and sometimes aggrevation,....

"Ours is a worthy cause."

 

[SheWolf]

While there certainly are aspects which separate the two issues, you can not simply ignore the similarities. First and foremost being the concept of humanity and how it applies similarly to both. Slaves were subjugated primarily due to the view that they were less than human in comparison to whites, and farther back, to nobles or other affluent classes. As with slavery, all that need be overcome to start the path to ending it is the realization of humanity in both cases. In the case of slavery, though universally illegal, it still occurs, though it's fought wherever it appears. Not so, yet, with abortion, because extending humanity to a human fetus has yet to be universally applied.

In any fight for equality, there are proponents and opponents, as with eliminating slavery AND abortion. Not to mention child labor, women's suffrage, workers rights, so on and so forth.

I have seen lifers subjugate women who get abortions, and I have seen choicers subjugate embryonic life. I hate seeing it on both sides and I don't think it is actually central to the debate. I understand some points choicers make about the unborn being counted in the census and things, moreso than I understand why lifers say hateful drivel about the females who died from an illegal abortions.

I have read some pro life websites, and I get the impression that this whole equality aspect, they think think z/e/fs are subhuman.. it's worse than slavery and the Holocaust, etc.. is kind of beat into your heads. No offense, but I have heard some terrible arguments to support the whys about some of that stuff.

But to address your post..

I don't think ending abortion will make embryonic life equal. Nobody has a right to life that supersedes the right to another person's body. It doesn't matter if it is a innocent child or not. If somebody is going to die and they don't get a new kidney or matching bone marrow courtesy of a volunteer donor, the government doesn't forcibly take it away from somebody else.

We are not currently forced to donate organs or any tissues, not even if we have rare blood types.. not even if millions of people are dying, and they are..

We currently are not obligated to physically support the life of another human being or person (if you prefer). It doesn't matter who that person is or their social rank (president, homeless, black, white, etc). Therefore, I don't think abortion is some inhuman violation of human rights on the level of the Holocaust or anything similar.