Abortion and Slavery equal?[W:1136]

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Saying "have a fetus removed" is a disingenuous tact that even the majority of pro-choicers see for dishonesty.

Raises hand...

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

The whole point of our discussion here is that pro-choicers believe that, within the boundaries of the law, a woman has a right have a fetus removed, a procedure which causes a developing fetus to die. In my book, that is different from "kill." To want a procedure which incidentally causes a fetus to die is not to want a procedure which, as its main aim, kills a fetus. These are two different things.

I couldn't agree more... when I was hunting and took down a deer all I wanted to do was "remove some meat". It was a shame and a shock that such a procedure incidentally caused the animal to die, but as that was not my intent I did not "kill" it. I feel better now.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

And pro-choice believe that within the boundaries of the law...a woman has the legal right to "KILL" a developing fetus. At least you didn't lower yourself and say "Murder" instead of "KILL"...like Jay portrays it to be.

Do you think that we could go back to a time when "owning" a person was legal? I want me my own Friday so that I can watch some more sports while he cooks and cleans.

Ahhh... legality. Gotta love that term when used to justify the unjustifiable.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Being legal doesn't make it just, or right.

nice sound bite while true is kind of meaningless, something illegal doesnt make it right either, nor in what you quoted did he say it was "right" :shrug:

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Saying "have a fetus removed" is a disingenuous tact that even the majority of pro-choicers see for dishonesty.

I say its only disingenuous if it is followed by propaganda and or hyperbole which I hate whne it comes form either side, when its just being said to ACCURATELY define the FACTUAL definition of the word then its not.

By definition his description is 100% accurate :shrug: and for some reason that bothers you.

You calling it "the main aim" is disingenuous, thats your opinion not fact. While I never disagree that very vast majority kill a ZEF by definition thats not its main aim.

If a person gets a "growth removed" or cancer or tape worm removed its not called killing growths or tape woms or cancer by definition?

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

I say its only disingenuous if it is followed by propaganda and or hyperbole which I hate whne it comes form either side, when its just being said to ACCURATELY define the FACTUAL definition of the word then its not.

By definition his description is 100% accurate :shrug: and for some reason that bothers you.

You calling it "the main aim" is disingenuous, thats your opinion not fact. While I never disagree that very vast majority kill a ZEF by definition thats not its main aim.

If a person gets a "growth removed" or cancer or tape worm removed its not called killing growths or tape woms or cancer by definition?

I screamed to the doctor.. "KILL IT! Shoot that ****ing tape worm... KILL IT!" until I saw the problem that advice was about to create...

...luckily the doctor put away her gun and just gave me some medicine. But to this day I am glad we killed it deader than dead. I took it out to the parking lot and drove over it on my way home just to be sure I killed it good. By my definition... we purposely sought out a method to seek and aggressively kill the it. End of story.

(This was a ficticious example brought to you by Bodi)

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

I screamed to the doctor.. "KILL IT! Shoot that ****ing tape worm... KILL IT!" until I saw the problem that advice was about to create...

...luckily the doctor put away her gun and just gave me some medicine. But to this day I am glad we killed it deader than dead. I took it out to the parking lot and drove over it on my way home just to be sure I killed it good. By my definition... we purposely sought out a method to seek and aggressively kill the it. End of story.

(This was a ficticious example brought to you by Bodi)

I know it was fictitious because tape worms kill people where you live just like dingos eat babies and I know you would have definitely shot it!!!!

I hear tape worms can take a croc if released in open waters where you live

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

The whole point of our discussion here is that pro-choicers believe that, within the boundaries of the law, a woman has a right have a fetus removed, a procedure which causes a developing fetus to die. In my book, that is different from "kill." To want a procedure which incidentally causes a fetus to die is not to want a procedure which, as its main aim, kills a fetus. These are two different things.

Yes, it kills the zef but I don't think that is a big deal in the early term.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Yes, it kills the zef but I don't think that is a big deal in the early term.

It certainly is to the ZEF and to a father that doesn't want the baby aborted...

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Do you think that we could go back to a time when "owning" a person was legal? I want me my own Friday so that I can watch some more sports while he cooks and cleans.

Ahhh... legality. Gotta love that term when used to justify the unjustifiable.

If you could actually own the embryo inside a woman, she could sue you in court if you did not remove it, as it would be trespassing and harming her body.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

It certainly is to the ZEF and to a father that doesn't want the baby aborted...

Nothing is a big deal to a ZEF, because ZEFs cannot feel or think, and if you do not want embryos with your genetic code to be aborted, don't have sex with a pro-choice woman. I can't believe that is so difficult.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

I couldn't agree more... when I was hunting and took down a deer all I wanted to do was "remove some meat". It was a shame and a shock that such a procedure incidentally caused the animal to die, but as that was not my intent I did not "kill" it. I feel better now.

You're using a very poor analogy, because the purpose of hunting was to obtain something from the body of another to use for oneself. The purpose of abortion is to make something stop disabling one's own immune system, using up the nutrients and other things in one's own body, and polluting one's own blood with alien chromosomes, to stop something from being biologically connected to one's own body and to stop it from taking things away from one's body for its own purposes. That is a completely different situation.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Nothing is a big deal to a ZEF, because ZEFs cannot feel or think, and if you do not want embryos with your genetic code to be aborted, don't have sex with a pro-choice woman. I can't believe that is so difficult.

Something being a "big" deal is not solely dependent on your awareness of it.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Something being a "big" deal is not solely dependent on your awareness of it.

That's crazy. If you never experience anything, you never experience a big deal.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

If you could actually own the embryo inside a woman, she could sue you in court if you did not remove it, as it would be trespassing and harming her body.

The natural act of pregnancy is not a harmful act any more than aging is harmful to me... and that was not the point of my argument anyway.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Nothing is a big deal to a ZEF, because ZEFs cannot feel or think, and if you do not want embryos with your genetic code to be aborted, don't have sex with a pro-choice woman. I can't believe that is so difficult.

A fetus can feel pain.

A newborn baby can't "think".

I have known at least three women who got pregnant either against there partners wishes (all the while claiming they were taking birth control as their agreed upon method) or flat out tricking a guy who was drunk so that she could get pregnant, get him for 18 years of child support with no intention of allowing him parental rights...

Yeah, it is much more difficult than you are seemingly willing to realize.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

You're using a very poor analogy, because the purpose of hunting was to obtain something from the body of another to use for oneself. The purpose of abortion is to make something stop disabling one's own immune system, using up the nutrients and other things in one's own body, and polluting one's own blood with alien chromosomes, to stop something from being biologically connected to one's own body and to stop it from taking things away from one's body for its own purposes. That is a completely different situation.

I wasn't making an analogy of hunting to abortion... my point was perfectly clear and correct.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

That's crazy. If you never experience anything, you never experience a big deal.

He didn't talk about experiencing something... he talked about being aware of a big deal. Can you actually not differentiate?

A "big deal" is also completely subjective. I have not realized that many things were a "big deal" until later when it was pointed out to me that it was. Everybody goes through this since so many things are outside our awareness. We can't possibly absorb everything going on around us.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

...

I have known at least three women who got pregnant either against there partners wishes (all the while claiming they were taking birth control as their agreed upon method) or flat out tricking a guy who was drunk so that she could get pregnant, get him for 18 years of child support with no intention of allowing him parental rights...

...

Birth control pill failure rate is 8%
Which means 8 sexually active girls/women (using only the BC pills for contraception) out of 100 will get pregnant in a years time.
Not very good odds if the choice is for the woman not to get pregnant.

Birth Control Pill (Oral Contraceptive)

A hormone pill taken by mouth.

Hormone

8% failure rate



For added protection against pregnancy, you can use more than one method of contraception at a time.
For example, many clinicians recommend that when using condoms, spermicides be used as well.
If a woman is allergic to spermicides she can use a natural method and a condom and for extra protection.
Any of these combinations will reduce the predicted failure rate.

Birth Control Failure Rates

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Birth control pill failure rate is 8%
Which means 8 sexually active girls/women (using only the BC pills for contraception) out of 100 will get pregnant in a years time.
Not very good odds if the choice is for the woman not to get pregnant.

Birth Control Failure Rates

I would rather go with the 5% stat from the APA Overview: Birth Control : American Pregnancy Association

But that aside I am pretty sure one in particular was using depro-provera and stopped using it without telling her husband specifically so she would get pregnant. My point that men who don't want children can and are affected stands.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

I would rather go with the 5% stat from the APA Overview: Birth Control : American Pregnancy Association

But that aside I am pretty sure one in particular was using depro-provera and stopped using it without telling her husband specifically so she would get pregnant. My point that men who don't want children can and are affected stands.

Yes, men can be affected.
I think a man who does want a child with a woman whom he is sexually active with should use a condom or get a vastectomy so that the failure rate is less.
I also think a woman should use a dual means or premenant means of Birth Control to help protect herself from getting pregnant if she does not want a pregnancy.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

A fetus can feel pain.

A newborn baby can't "think".

I have known at least three women who got pregnant either against there partners wishes (all the while claiming they were taking birth control as their agreed upon method) or flat out tricking a guy who was drunk so that she could get pregnant, get him for 18 years of child support with no intention of allowing him parental rights...

Yeah, it is much more difficult than you are seemingly willing to realize.

These women were "pro-choice"? Because that is what we were talking about - that a man should not have sex with a pro-choice woman if he wants the woman he has sex with to give birth to any and all zygotes that result from his having sex with her. I have to say that it seems really improbable to me that a woman who is pro-choice is going to trick a guy into making her pregnant so that she can carry the pregnancy to term and get child support from him and not allow him parental rights.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

He didn't talk about experiencing something... he talked about being aware of a big deal. Can you actually not differentiate?

A "big deal" is also completely subjective. I have not realized that many things were a "big deal" until later when it was pointed out to me that it was. Everybody goes through this since so many things are outside our awareness. We can't possibly absorb everything going on around us.

So you think a 6 week old embryo is aware that it's a big deal?

 

[choiceone]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

I would rather go with the 5% stat from the APA Overview: Birth Control : American Pregnancy Association

But that aside I am pretty sure one in particular was using depro-provera and stopped using it without telling her husband specifically so she would get pregnant. My point that men who don't want children can and are affected stands.

It is more difficult for men who don't want children, because their choice is at the point of having or not having sex. That is because, when men have sex, they give away their sperm by literally putting part of their body in the woman and taking a chance that their sperm will get in there. Once the sperm is inside the woman, it does not belong to the guy - he gave it away. In contrast, when women have sex, they do not give away their ova because they keep them inside their body boundaries and, therefore, within the zone of their person over which they have a natural right of control, so if the ova get fertilized, they still have them in that zone and have their choice even during pregnancy.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

These women were "pro-choice"? Because that is what we were talking about - that a man should not have sex with a pro-choice woman if he wants the woman he has sex with to give birth to any and all zygotes that result from his having sex with her. I have to say that it seems really improbable to me that a woman who is pro-choice is going to trick a guy into making her pregnant so that she can carry the pregnancy to term and get child support from him and not allow him parental rights.

I am fairly certain that she was pro-choice. But why would that matter? She didn't want kids and then felt her biological clock ticking and stated she wanted a kid but not a partner (husband). She went to clubs with us and looked for a particular guy that met certain qualifications that she had and she proceeded to party with him for a week purposely getting pregnant. She told me flat out she was getting child support and wanted nothing to do with him.

This all stemmed from a comment I made that a man that doesn't want kids can be affected and not about a woman that was pro-choice, btw.

So you think a 6 week old embryo is aware that it's a big deal?

No, but also irrelevant. It is a big deal regardless of it being aware. It's death IS A BIG DEAL.

It is more difficult for men who don't want children, because their choice is at the point of having or not having sex. That is because, when men have sex, they give away their sperm by literally putting part of their body in the woman and taking a chance that their sperm will get in there. Once the sperm is inside the woman, it does not belong to the guy - he gave it away. In contrast, when women have sex, they do not give away their ova because they keep them inside their body boundaries and, therefore, within the zone of their person over which they have a natural right of control, so if the ova get fertilized, they still have them in that zone and have their choice even during pregnancy.

I don't see how this is relevant to my statement...