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Abortion and Slavery equal?[W:1136]

Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Feeling kind of embarrassed aren't you? Doing X doesn't mean you agree to doing/having Y. Your argument is no different then a rapist who justifies his/her crimes because their victim was "asking for it" due to what they wore. Only a troglodyte would make that kind of argument.

No, I'm not embarrassed. I understand that an act of procreation can lead to creation. This is, after all, a fact.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

The philosophy behind them are similar.

Only if you don't understand.


Slavery: My slave is not a "person" for X reason(s) and therefore it's my right as a higher being to own them.

You're being ridiculous. Slavery doesn't deny slaves of being people, not even their own slave masters. Throughout ancient history and between various cultures, slaves may even have rights.


Abortion: My fetus is not a "person" for X reason(s) and therefore it's my right as a higher being to end their life.

No one has an abortion because they are a "higher being" and the fetus isn't. You are being ridiculous again.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

No, I'm not embarrassed. I understand that an act of procreation can lead to creation. This is, after all, a fact.

And sometimes the act of wearing something revealing can lead to sex. You are still stuck at believing rape victims asked for it.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

[/QUOTE]You're being ridiculous. Slavery doesn't deny slaves of being people, not even their own slave masters. Throughout ancient history and between various cultures, slaves may even have rights.[/QUOTE]

Slaves were in fact considered property. property isnt a human. As a matter of law, when two slave owners would be in disagreement over a slave, the possessive nature of slavery more then likely made treating a slave as a piece of property a matter of legal convenience and reuse existing livestock law.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

No one has an abortion because they are a "higher being" and the fetus isn't. You are being ridiculous again.[/QUOTE said:
than why is the mother performing the act? its not like there isnt adoption and foster care; the mother doesnt have to keep the child. she should though give the child the decency and respect of letting him/her see the light of day. isnt the mother being unfair to the unborn child?
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Slaves were in fact considered property. property isnt a human. As a matter of law, when two slave owners would be in disagreement over a slave, the possessive nature of slavery more then likely made treating a slave as a piece of property a matter of legal convenience and reuse existing livestock law.

Just because one is another's property, doesn't mean you are not a human being. A slave owner can have a slave for many reasons and often enough it is because the person pledges himself or herself against a loan. Obviously, treating someone who owes you money like "livestock" would be counterproductive. I'd imagine it would be in the best interest of a slave owner to show some mercy upon their slaves.
 
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Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

And sometimes the act of wearing something revealing can lead to sex. You are still stuck at believing rape victims asked for it.

I'm no victim, but I have been raped. What a colossally ignorant and childish comment to make about someone you don't even know. I really am embarrassed for you.

On the bright side, you've shown everybody reading this thread just what kind of brain and character you have, so thank you. :peace
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

than why is the mother performing the act? its not like there isnt adoption and foster care; the mother doesnt have to keep the child. she should though give the child the decency and respect of letting him/her see the light of day. isnt the mother being unfair to the unborn child?

Abortions happen because of social economic reasons. According to you pro-"lifers" here, every pro-choice woman who ever got pregnant would have an abortion since they all believe a human zygote is less than them.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

I'm no victim, but I have been raped.

How is that relevant to you not understanding the most basic logic that, deciding to do X does not mean you agree to Y?


What a colossally ignorant and childish comment to make about someone you don't even know. I really am embarrassed for you.

You're projecting. Nice surrender.


On the bright side, you've shown everybody reading this thread just what kind of brain and character you have, so thank you. :peace

You do realize that what you are trying to prove is counterproductive for your own cause, right? If a human zygote deserves the "right to life" then it doesn't matter how it was created.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Here are some of the reasons women choose to have abortions:
The decision to continue your pregnancy or to end it is very personal.

Each year, nearly 1.2 million American women have an abortion to end a pregnancy.2

The most common reasons women consider abortion are:

Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.2

Inability to support or care for a child.

To end an unwanted pregnancy.

To prevent the birth of a child with birth defects or severe medical problems. Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done.

Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.

Physical or mental conditions that endanger the woman's health if the pregnancy is continued.

In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.2

Read more:

Abortion-Reasons Women Choose Abortion
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

than why is the mother performing the act? its not like there isnt adoption and foster care; the mother doesnt have to keep the child....

Did you know only 2 percent of unmarried women give a child up for adoption?

Of the three options...
Abortion
Contining the pregnancy and keeping it.
Giving it up for adoption.

Adoption is the last option by a long shot.

How Many Women Place Their Children for Adoption?
•2% of unmarried women at any age place their child for adoption. (ChildTrends, 1995)

Adoption Statistics: Placing Children
 
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Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

You're being ridiculous. Slavery doesn't deny slaves of being people.

This sentence is ridiculous. Slaves weren't people. You can't own a goddamn person, stop saying something so incredibly stupid. If you're a person, your right to liberty is being respected.
 
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Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

....in all honesty you make absolutely no sense...thanks for informing me about the civil war our country went through but its not needed i know my history quite well.
dishonesty??? naive???? your obviously lost

You're response is just as I expected....dishonest.

Btw, the Bible says a man is not a living being until God gives him his first breath of life. So do you think the Bible is wrong or that God is stupid and doesn't know when life begins? Or maybe you think you know better than God, eh?
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Only if you don't understand.




You're being ridiculous. Slavery doesn't deny slaves of being people, not even their own slave masters. Throughout ancient history and between various cultures, slaves may even have rights.




No one has an abortion because they are a "higher being" and the fetus isn't. You are being ridiculous again.

You can repeatedly call me ridiculous, but the fact is that slavery denies someone of their personhood and it's rationalized because slaves are not "people." Much the same way many within the pro-choice camp would say that fetuses are not "people" or "persons" and thus the have no rights. Atrocities like slavery and abortion are rationalized with the whole "personhood" concept and the belief that another human life is not a person or does not deserve rights or a right to their own life because of X criteria that in the judging individual's mind makes another human a "person."
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

This sentence is ridiculous. Slaves weren't people. You can't own a goddamn person, stop saying something so incredibly stupid.

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work. You're wrong again. Stop trying to redefine words, please.

If you're a person, your right to liberty is being respected.

If you are a person, you are just a human being. Respecting your liberty is not a requirement.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

I am both glad to see someone understanding the concepts involved, and at the same time mortified that this understanding is so rare.


Restrictive personhood IS the abortion debate. There are plainly many here who do not understand what that means at all, and thus they cannot add to the discussion, only disrupt and distract.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

You're response is just as I expected....dishonest.

Btw, the Bible says a man is not a living being until God gives him his first breath of life. So do you think the Bible is wrong or that God is stupid and doesn't know when life begins? Or maybe you think you know better than God, eh?

dishonest? to who? to you? to myself? think before you post.
do you think God is stupid and doesnt know when life begins? if you have the audacity to ask such ridiculous questions i have the right to ask the same dont I? because its clear in the bible that God gives his breath of life to man at the moment of conception. when 23 chromosomes from a male and 23 from a female unite in bond never seen before. in a bond that will never happen again quite like that.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work. You're wrong again. Stop trying to redefine words, please.

Slavery is a system under which humans are reduced to property, denying their personhood.

You're the one that doesn't understand basic terminology pertinent to this discussion. This isn't semantics. This isn't a matter of opinion or perspective. You just don't know what ****ing words mean. You're just flat out wrong.

If you are a person, you are just a human being.

If you are a human, you're a human being.

In an unjust society, like our own, human beings aren't always legal persons. They should be. But they aren't. Because this country sucks on human rights and needs to be fixed.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

You can repeatedly call me ridiculous, but the fact is that slavery denies someone of their personhood and it's rationalized because slaves are not "people." Much the same way many within the pro-choice camp would say that fetuses are not "people" or "persons" and thus the have no rights. Atrocities like slavery and abortion are rationalized with the whole "personhood" concept and the belief that another human life is not a person or does not deserve rights or a right to their own life because of X criteria that in the judging individual's mind makes another human a "person."

A slave is not denied of personhood but of their liberty. I support abortion rights and whether a fetus is a person or not is irrelevant to the discussion. A fetus could be proven 100% a person and it still wouldn't change the dynamics of this discussion and beyond.
So you are wrong again.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Just because one is another's property, doesn't mean you are not a human being. A slave owner can have a slave for many reasons and often enough it is because the person pledges himself or herself against a loan. Obviously, treating someone who owes you money like "livestock" would be counterproductive. I'd imagine it would be in the best interest of a slave owner to show some mercy upon their slaves.

the slaves are the property of someone else...what right do they have? what liberty do they have? what freedom do they have? please answer these questions. when your stripped of everything that makes you a person you are no longer a being but sadly rather a piece of property. And history shows that the vast amount of slaves were in fact slaves beyond their own will. they were a human-person with freedom, rights, and liberty but became nothing but a piece of property after. More times then none slave owners were ruthless to their slaves
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

The Jewish religion and a lot Christian religions that do not believe that God gives the breath of life at conception.

From:
Abortion access:
Current beliefs by various
religious and secular groups:
Overview:
A diversity of views exists within the U.S. and Canada concerning abortion access.
Many pro-life and pro-choice groups have been organized with opposing goals.

Surprisingly, they agree on a few very important points:

They both want to see the abortion rate decline.
In those cases where they feel that an abortion is acceptable, they are both concerned that it present a minimal health risk to the woman.
Once human personhood is attained by the embryo or fetus, both pro-life and pro-choice supporters are concerned that his/her life be preserved, except in very unusual circumstances.


Unfortunately, the two sides cannot agree on when personhood is attained.
Most pro-life groups believe it happens at conception and are thus generally opposed to all elective abortions.

Pro-choice groups typically believe that it happens later in gestation or at birth, and are thus generally supportive of a woman's access to affordable, safe, elective abortions.



Pro-choice groups:

Liberal and some mainline denominations: In general, these either promote a woman's right to choose an abortion, or are relatively silent on the matter. A number of liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish faith groups and organizations have publicly stated that abortions are sometimes an acceptable option, and should remain legal. According to lists prepared by The Secular Web and the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, they include, in alphabetic order: 1


American Baptist Churches-USA (see below),
American Ethical Union,
American Friends (Quaker) Service Committee,
American Jewish Committee,
American Jewish Congress,
Central Conference of American Rabbis,
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ),
Council of Jewish Federations,
Episcopal Church (USA),
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot,
Moravian Church in America-Northern Province,
Na'Amat USA,
National Council of Jewish Women,
Presbyterian Church (USA),
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice,
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
Union of American Hebrew Congregations,
Unitarian Universalist Association,
United Church of Christ,
United Methodist Church,
United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism.

Religious groups other than denominations:

Catholics for Free Choice,
Episcopal Women's Caucus,
Evangelicals for Choice,
Jewish Women International,
Lutheran Women's Caucus,
North American Federation of Temple Youth,
Unitarian Universalist Women's Federation,
Women of Reform Judaism,
Women's American ORT,
Women's Caucus Church of the Brethren,
Women's League for Conservative Judaism

Current abortion beliefs of religious groups
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Abortions happen because of social economic reasons. According to you pro-"lifers" here, every pro-choice woman who ever got pregnant would have an abortion since they all believe a human zygote is less than them.


thats debatable. a women still knows that a child can still have the right to live without the baby being under her care if she doesnt want the child to
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

A slave is not denied of personhood but of their liberty. I support abortion rights and whether a fetus is a person or not is irrelevant to the discussion. A fetus could be proven 100% a person and it still wouldn't change the dynamics of this discussion and beyond.
So you are wrong again.

So, you would allow one person to kill another? Isn't that the same as murder from an ethical standpoint? Slaves are denied their personhood, they are property. Some cultures and laws would allow a slavemaster to beat their slave to death, use them as a sex object, own their children and sell them off and deny them any right to marry or live independently. Many rationalize slavery with "well, the Africans aren't people even though they are human" or "this group of people are barbarians and not sophisticated like us, they aren't people."

Given your view that you would allow someone to have an abortion even if the fetus was "proven 100% a person" I must ask, do you support late term abortion and/or partial birth abortion? Why is it ethically alright for someone to kill another human life that has naturally taken up residency in a woman's body as is typical for any human life?
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

Slaves were in fact considered property. property isnt a human. As a matter of law, when two slave owners would be in disagreement over a slave, the possessive nature of slavery more then likely made treating a slave as a piece of property a matter of legal convenience and reuse existing livestock law.

Rubbish. If there is one thing that slavery has proven it's that slaves are humans (what else would they be?) and can be treated as property. But you would know that if you knew your own countries history.


Article I, Section 2 of the US Constitution recognizes slaves as "all other Persons".....


"Although the word slavery is not mentioned, "all other Persons" implies it. The clause explicitly makes reference to all other social or economic classes of the time, namely free people, bound servants, and Indians. The only economic class it does not refer to by name is that of slaves. This proves the reluctance of the Founders to include slavery in the Constitution.....read

A Look Into the Constitutional Understanding of Slavery by Susan L. Boyd

Slaves are humans and were considered "persons" under the law, fetuses are not.
 
Re: Abotion and Slavery equal?

thats debatable. a women still knows that a child can still have the right to live without the baby being under her care if she doesnt want the child to

61 percent of woman who have abortions have one or more children.
Only 2 percent give up a child for adoption.
Why do think a woman who already had a child would not want to put her health at risk and carry her pregnancy to term just so she can give away the new child to stangers?
 
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