Abortion 201

[Quag]

Abortion 201: the Legal question​

Prerequisite: Abortion 101

https://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/350312-abortion-101-a.html#post1069806631

In Abortion 101 we explored the moral argument for being at once both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice in the matter of abortion.

Over 200 posts later and the DP Pro-Choice Contingent still didn't get it.

I explain this failure in two ways:
1. The Pro-Choice Contingent cannot think outside their talking points.
2. The Pro-Choice Contingent cannot separate the moral from the legal aspects of abortion.

In Abortion 201 we take up the legal question of abortion.

Question:
How does the moral question of abortion relate to the legal question of abortion?

In order to avoid the drone of talking points which the misunderstanding of this question will draw from the Pro-Choice Contingent,
let us stipulate here at the outset that abortion is legal in the United States, and that its legality is not the question being mooted here.

The question raised here goes to the relation between the moral argument presented in Abortion 101 and the legality of abortion.

Inasmuch as the DP Pro-Choice Contingent still does not get the moral argument, this summary may be in order:

1. Being both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice is the morally sound view on abortion.
2. Abortion is immoral (with exceptions).
3. But every moral agent has a right to be immoral (a right in the sense of a claim, not a right in the sense of privilege).

Questions:
In allowing an immoral act is abortion law an immoral law?
In embodying the morally sound view on abortion is abortion law itself morally sound?​

Since your prerequisite failed because the morality was not settled why are you so arrogant to think you could possibly move on and use it as a basis for further argument?
I mean logically anything you say here is completely irrelevant as your abortion 101 is just a bunch of dog poo.

Go back to the drawing board and start over again from scratch

 

[prometeus]

Yes, she has that right, but taking the life a human being is immoral unless done in self-dense of a life.

Why is killing in self defense moral? Jesus did not kill in self defense and was against it. Where do you find the morality that condones killing in self defense? Do you find all wars immoral too? How about the death penalty or killing Bin Laden?

 

[Angel]

Because in real life, in practice, they are completely contradictory. I spelled it out in post 113. I dont expect you to agree.

I see you are just full of garbage. The real point here is, again, "who says?" You yourself have not provided anything but your own personal feelings.

I dont respect your conclusions as your credibility is shot. Not worth wasting more time on.

I've answered all your questions and corrected all your misrepresentations of my argument. You don't like that argument because it doesn't fit perfectly with your political agenda.
My argument is rational, logical, valid and sound. It is Pro-Life/Pro-Choice BOTH.

 

[Lursa]

I've answered all your questions and corrected all your misrepresentations of my argument. You don't like that argument because it doesn't fit perfectly with your political agenda.
My argument is rational, logical, valid and sound. It is Pro-Life/Pro-Choice BOTH.

I dont like it because it is extremely limited and innaccurate. It's not logical nor rational. You just dont like that being pointed out.

It's a very immature way to attempt to conduct a discussion. Again, blogging seems more your style. You are impermeable to new or opposing ideas.

 

[Angel]

I disagree.

I will repeat that it is not immoral to have an abortion that is not not done in self defense of the pregnant woman’s life.
...

You disagree with my moral intuitions and my moral argument. Fine.
But your assertion of your moral intuitions, even repeated endlessly, needs a moral argument to support it

 

[minnie616]

I've answered all your questions and corrected all your misrepresentations of my argument. You don't like that argument because it doesn't fit perfectly with your political agenda.
My argument is rational, logical, valid and sound. It is Pro-Life/Pro-Choice BOTH.

I disagree.

Your arugument is not rational, nor logical, nor valid, nor sound.

 

[minnie616]

You disagree with my moral intuitions and my moral argument. Fine.
But your assertion of your moral intuitions, even repeated endlessly, needs a moral argument to support it

From:

RCRC is unique in the reproductive health, rights and justice movements, because it draws on the moral power of diverse religious communities.

RCRC has proud roots in the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion, the underground network of religious leaders created before Roe v. Wade. These brave people of conscience took risks to ensure that women could have the spiritual counseling they needed, and, if they chose, referral to a safe abortion provider.

Read more:


The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

 

[AGENT J]

FACTS:
1.) Definition of morality doesn't matter
2.) Morals and law are related. esp. on matters of life and death
3.) Spamming the same post 50X is trolling
4.) = your trolling fails

1.) not a fact, yes it does and it proves the failed original post factually wrong.
2.) not a fact, in this case that again is your subjective OPINION and
3.) not a fact, your opinion on trolling is meaningless
4.) i havent trolled you once i only posted facts that continue to destroy the retarded and failed lies in you OP LMAO

here we are in the same spot, the fact that morals are subjective destroys your op, if you disagree by all means please post one fact that supports the failed lies and false claims in our op and makes them true please . .


but we all know, much to my delight, you cant, hence your continued dodging

 

[Angel]

I disagree.

Your arugument is not rational, nor logical, nor valid, nor sound.

Show us how not then.

 

[Angel]

From:



Read more:


The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

Where is your argument? The moral argument of minnie616.

 

[Angel]

1.) not a fact, yes it does and it proves the failed original post factually wrong.
2.) not a fact, in this case that again is your subjective OPINION and
3.) not a fact, your opinion on trolling is meaningless
4.) i havent trolled you once i only posted facts that continue to destroy the retarded and failed lies in you OP LMAO

here we are in the same spot, the fact that morals are subjective destroys your op, if you disagree by all means please post one fact that supports the failed lies and false claims in our op and makes them true please . .


but we all know, much to my delight, you cant, hence your continued dodging

FACTS:
1.) Definition of morality doesn't matter
2.) Morals and law are related. esp. on matters of life and death
3.) Spamming the same post 50X is trolling
4.) = your trolling fails

 

[minnie616]

Show us how not then.

From

RCRC

The decisions to become a parent, when and under what circumstances are deeply personal.
These matters are best left to a woman to discern for herself in consultation with her family,
her faith and others she may bring into the conversation.

....


Sex and Sexuality as Part of Human Dignity

Our religious principles:
Every person has inherent dignity including the sacred gift of sexuality.

Our advocacy position:

We reject the shame and stigma that religious conservatives have long attached to sex, sexuality and reproduction.

Publicly, we challenge these views which have polarized the debate on reproductive issues.
In the secular reproductive issues movement, we present moderate and progressive faith perspectives to counter religious extremists.
In our congregations and communities, we offer women spiritual support and solace as they make their reproductive choices.

Religious Liberty

Our religious principles: We are attuned to the important role of our diverse faiths in personal and public life. We treasure the religious freedom guaranteed Americans since our nation’s founding.

Our advocacy position: Good policy allows people of all religions to follow their own faiths and consciences in their own lives.
In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.

 

[minnie616]

Where is your argument? The moral argument of minnie616.

My arugument and that of my faith is:



“The decisions to become a parent, when and under what circumstances are deeply personal.
These matters are best left to a woman to discern for herself in consultation with her family,
her faith and others she may bring into the conversation.”

....
And...

“In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.”

Quotes from RCRC

 

[Angel]

I dont like it because it is extremely limited and innaccurate. It's not logical nor rational. You just dont like that being pointed out.

It's a very immature way to attempt to conduct a discussion. Again, blogging seems more your style. You are impermeable to new or opposing ideas.

Leave comments on me aside and show that my moral argument is "inaccurate, illogical and irrational."

 

[AGENT J]

FACTS:
1.) Definition of morality doesn't matter
2.) Morals and law are related. esp. on matters of life and death
3.) Spamming the same post 50X is trolling
4.) = your trolling fails

aaaand another dodge proving you got nothing to support your failed OP I love it LMAO

1.) not a fact, yes it does and it proves the failed original post factually wrong.
2.) not a fact, in this case that again is your subjective OPINION and
3.) not a fact, your opinion on trolling is meaningless
4.) i havent trolled you once i only posted facts that continue to destroy the retarded and failed lies in you OP LMAO

here we are in the same spot, the fact that morals are subjective destroys your op, if you disagree by all means please post one fact that supports the failed lies and false claims in our op and makes them true please . .


but we all know, much to my delight, you cant, hence your continued dodging

 

[Angel]

aaaand another dodge proving you got nothing to support your failed OP I love it LMAO

1.) not a fact, yes it does and it proves the failed original post factually wrong.
2.) not a fact, in this case that again is your subjective OPINION and
3.) not a fact, your opinion on trolling is meaningless
4.) i havent trolled you once i only posted facts that continue to destroy the retarded and failed lies in you OP LMAO

here we are in the same spot, the fact that morals are subjective destroys your op, if you disagree by all means please post one fact that supports the failed lies and false claims in our op and makes them true please . .


but we all know, much to my delight, you cant, hence your continued dodging

FACTS:
1.) Definition of morality doesn't matter
2.) Morals and law are related. esp. on matters of life and death
3.) Spamming the same post 50X is trolling
4.) = your trolling fails

 

[AGENT J]

FACTS:
1.) Definition of morality doesn't matter
2.) Morals and law are related. esp. on matters of life and death
3.) Spamming the same post 50X is trolling
4.) = your trolling fails

aaaand another dodge proving you got nothing to support your failed OP I love it LMAO

1.) not a fact, yes it does and it proves the failed original post factually wrong.
2.) not a fact, in this case that again is your subjective OPINION and
3.) not a fact, your opinion on trolling is meaningless
4.) i havent trolled you once i only posted facts that continue to destroy the retarded and failed lies in you OP LMAO

here we are in the same spot, the fact that morals are subjective destroys your op, if you disagree by all means please post one fact that supports the failed lies and false claims in our op and makes them true please . .


but we all know, much to my delight, you cant, hence your continued dodging

 

[Angel]

My arugument and that of my faith is:



“The decisions to become a parent, when and under what circumstances are deeply personal.
These matters are best left to a woman to discern for herself in consultation with her family,
her faith and others she may bring into the conversation.”

....
And...

“In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.”

Quotes from RCRC

Your bolded quoted argument is fine. It means women are morally free to choose whether or not to carry or terminate. That's part of my argument in the OP of both 101 and 201.
I am fully Pro-Choice from a moral standpoint.

 

[minnie616]

Your bolded quoted argument is fine. It means women are morally free to choose whether or not to carry or terminate. That's part of my argument in the OP of both 101 and 201.
I am fully Pro-Choice from a moral standpoint.

You added that the decision was immoral if the woman’s life was not immediately threatened.

I am saying you are wrong about that.

In fact I sincerely believe that :


" The right of an individual to make their own choice about whether or not they will offer their body in the support of another organism is a moral good."

From this article:

Abortion is a Moral Good

The right of an individual to make their own choice about whether or not they will offer their body in the support of another organism is a moral good.

The individual making a choice which will be most beneficial to them is a moral good, whether that choice is abortion or birth or both (and most women who have abortions, it should be noted, make different choices at different times in their lives).

The abortion procedure itself, like most other medical procedures, is a moral good.
And like most other medical procedures, it is bad when done without consent, or when coercive.
As is childbirth.

Abortion is a Moral Decision by Rev. Debra W. Haffner

 

[Angel]

You added that the decision was immoral if the woman’s life was not immediately threatened.

I am saying you are wrong about that.

In fact I sincerely believe that :


" The right of an individual to make their own choice about whether or not they will offer their body in the support of another organism is a moral good."

From this article:

Abortion is a Moral Good



Abortion is a Moral Decision by Rev. Debra W. Haffner

The right to choose and the right to take a human life are morally distinct issues.
Do you, minnie, have an argument on the morality of taking a human life?

 

[minnie616]

The right to choose and the right to take a human life are morally distinct issues.
Do you, minnie, have an argument on the morality of taking a human life?

Before viabilty yes, I sincerely believe an elective abortion is a moral decision.

 

[Angel]

Before viabilty yes, I sincerely believe an elective abortion is a moral decision.

That's your belief. Fine. Now does it have a moral argument supporting it?

 

[Quag]

That's your belief. Fine. Now does it have a moral argument supporting it?

See here's your problem you think morality comes from logic. you can have a logic to your own personal morality or not, but it doesn't have to be sound or valid same applies to societal morals

 

[Lursa]

Leave comments on me aside and show that my moral argument is "inaccurate, illogical and irrational."

Several of us have. That's what I meant by...stick to your echo chamber and just blog it.

 

[Angel]

Before viabilty yes, I sincerely believe an elective abortion is a moral decision.

Based on what reasoning?